Now, only sorcerers can cast "Project Image" and "Simulacrum". Other mages cannot learn the spells because all scrolls of those two spells are removed from the game (unless you cheat and give the spell to your mage by SK). The spells are also erased from the spell book of Jan and Nalia. This was all I could think to do for now, but as thetruth indirectly said, it's the player (himself) who should be his own policeman to avoid cheesy methods.

I am not sure if this is a good idea.
For sure it is a solution, but still I would prefer a different one, even if I am not sure know if there is.

I personally would see this as an unnecesary restiriction, the spells are good characterful spells which I like. Sure they can be abused but this is a case where it would be probably be best to allow people to police themselves rather than removing the spells from the game.

I presume the main problem is the player spamming huge numbers of planetars. In which case could Project Image/Simulcrum be nerfed somehow so that;

a/ the images/simulcrums cannot cast summoning spells

or;

b/ the images/simulcrums cannot cast level 9 spells.

Perhaps one way of doing b/ would be to "cap" project image at a certain caster level?

I agree with Clown though - I'd prefer to keep them in for all mage/sorc classes if at all possible.

I agree with thetruth, coaster and Clown: it's not quite the best solution. You should allow players to decide on their own whether they use this or not. If not, then is it possible to make the summoning limit work for PI/Simulacrum as well? If so, one couldn't have 10 Mordys, Planetars or whatever. Or is it not possible due to the engine?

Yes the problem is not only the Planetars. PI and Simulacrum ignore generally the summon limit of 5. I guess it happens because the clones are not party members.
Though I am not sure if there is a solution to this.

Also PI can be abused more than the Simulacrum since the second is a "level-drained" image of the caster and cannot cast 9 level spells (don't know what happens without the XP CAP though).

And of course both can use items/scrolls from the quick-slot. I don't know if it would be possible to make them unable to use the quick-slots like it happens with the Mislead clones.
Or if it is doable to make impossible for a Mage to put PIs in a C.Contigency.

IMO it is the PI the most cheesy spell since you can make it also to attack physically if you shapechange it.
So if you decide to remove something for me it should be only the PI.

If we were talking about the original game I wouldn't have any problems at all if you removed both spells from the game, since pure Arcane spell-casters were already too powerful. But in IA these spells cannot be abused so much like before and arcane spell-casters would become even "weaker" without these spells.




Yes but this is true for the other spell-casters as well. Sorcerers would be even more powerful compared to the other Mages if you remove these spells.

And since Sorcerers can use these spells the problem remains for those who want to cheat (mod-NPCs or multi-player created Sorcerers).

In conclusion Sikret, I believe that if none of the above solutions is possible maybe you should leave the spells (at least the Simulacrum) in the game. Besides the player who wants to cheat will do it anyway.

Disabling the ability to stick project image in a chain contingency and disabling projected images' ability to cast level 9 spells would be the best solution, if it's possible.

As for removing them from the game? I think it's a mistake. There is a limited amount of spells that mages can cast in the late game of IA and actually be useful. Reducing that amount of spells by 2 serves to make the game less interesting.

If it cannot be fixed, so be it. Players will have to resist the temptation to cheat in this one instance.

Concerning spamming planetars: I defeated the demon prince without spamming summons (pardon my elation). With that success, I have no intention of spamming summons. And from the comments of others, I can tell that this tactic is unnecessary to win. My opinion remains that this game is personal; so, let a person do what pleases him (even planetar spamming) - it won't affect my game at all.

On the other hand, if you are able to take away summon spamming -without taking away the spells- that won't affect my game either. So, I don't mind.

Even worse, when a projected image uses a scroll, the scroll is not consumed and does not disappear the original caster's inventory (the illusionary copy of the scroll disappears from the clone's inventory but the main scroll remains).

What if I leave "Simulacrum" as it is, but replace "Project Image" with an entirely new custom spell? (the drawback of this solution is that if any other creature--perhaps from some other mod-- is coded to cast project image, he will cast that new spell on himself instead. This is the main reason I didn't go for this solution in the first place.)

Is it possible to make quick item slots unusable for PI and Simulacrums?

I don't see the problem; in the vanilla game, IA, and all the other mods I've played, I've never seen a hostile creature that was actually scripted to cast project image.

Also, as IA becomes even more extensive, it will preclude the use of other mods anyway.

Well, afaik the improved Sendai included in Oversight uses PIs, apart from other cheesy methods - varies in that you determine the difficulty of the battle via the actual difficulty of the game.
But that's a moot point anyway, as IA uses it's own component. I think so at least. Didn't get there yet.

Now, what would this new spell look like?

Personally, I horded the 2 green protect from magic scrolls and resisted the urge to use them through PI. I may try out that improved ring of gaxx someday.

Simulacrum may not be so much less powerful than PI. Imagine the maxxed out FMC that casts simulacrum followed by restoration on the simulacrum. Now we have 2 maxxed out FMC ready to do battle!

I've not used Simulacrum at all yet and have used PI rarely. I wonder if I will need them later in the game though.

If we eventually agree on the main idea of replacing the spell with a new one, I think the new spell can be a near spell of the same school. For example, an improved version of the mislead spell comes to mind. It can be names "Greater Mislead" or "Improved Mislead" or something like that (we can decide its differences with the 6th level spell). Another idea can be the Auramaster's "Perfect Camouflage" spell. I can make a mage version of the spell. A third idea can be a spell which is a mixture of "Imp. Invisiblity + Blur + Mirror Image" all in one package.

All that said, I think our main problem for now is to decide whether we want to replace the spell or not. If we decide that we want, we can think more about the exact features of the new spell. I'm still leaned towards omitting the scrolls rather than replacing the spell, but it's only a slight preferance. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm not the tactical expert that others are, but so far I've used PI mostly to conserve spells. Let the PI do any prebuffing and pre-summoning to the limit. For sure, the enemy will cast True Sight and destroy the image as soon as the battle has begun. Personally, I haven't felt the need for more defense with my mages. I've always been wanting more offense than just summon and buff. Further, Perfect Camouflage (a very nice spell, by the way) and Immunity Abjuration (I'd never trade the later spell for the former) used together would allow 2 school immunities. I still lean toward leaving things alone.

Yes I agree with leonidas. IA has already modified the tough enemies other mods change and since in the next versions almost all of the original game's enemies will be modified I don't think it's a problem to make a new version of the PI.




Yes having as a base the Mislead clone is good.
The name can be again Project Image I don't think that you need to change that (even if it will be an entirely new spell). Or isn't it possible to give an existing name to a new spell?

So on this new clone someone will not be able to use the quick-slots, right?

Also can you make it impossible to put in a Chain Contigency?
Maybe with a similar "mechanism" to that of the SI spell (can't put it in a CC)?

But I like also the idea of a spell similar to the "Perfect Camouflage" of the Auramaster.

Very good observation, rbeverjr!

So, the mage version of Perfect Camouflage is omitted from the list of options (if we decide to replace the spell). Let's wait to see what others will suggest.

The main difference is that the PI can cast the exact numbers of spells of the caster (9-level spells included which can be abused most).
Even if you cast Restoration on the Simulacrum you cannot have more spells than the level-drained clone had.

And yes F/M types (and not only) can use them in melee with a better THACO if you cast Restoration on them, but you can anyway cast T.Transformation on the clone and then use scrolls of PfMWs (since you don't use the real ones) and the result will be the same (Restoration or not).

Maybe later we can find a solution for the Simulacrum spell as well.

But if you wanted you could always make the Mage version of the spell to belong to the Illusion school. Fits nicely with the idea of the spell IMO.

The problem rbeverjr noted is that Perfect camouflage includes SI:Divination as one of its effects. Now if we make a mage version of it, the mage will cast it together with SI:Abjuration and he rule of "Multiple SIs don't stack" will be violated. Of course, there are solutions for the problem. For example, I can add immunity to SI to the new spell and immunity to the new spell to all types of SI. I will keep this possibility as a final resort if we don't find a good mislead-type alternative.

My favourite solution thus far is the new mislead spell.

I say, give the mislead clone the ability to cast certain spells (instead of a direct copy of the player's spell book), based on the level of the caster, and the inability to cast certain lvl 9 spells and HLAs.

That will retain the spell's functionality as a spell-sparing device and circumvent the major exploits.

If noone has any particular reason to disagree, I prefer the "Perfect Camouflage" spell as a replacement for "Project Image". Of course, I will make sure that the spell will not stack with SI. The spell grants Improved Invisibility + Protection from divination spells simultaneously (for 20 rounds) though it won't grant the AC and save bonuses of the oridinary Imp. Invisibility (so there is no need to worry about exploits of casting the new spell together with Imp. Invisibility or with itself cumulatively to have absurdly high AC and save bonuses). A successful remove magic can dispel the effects of the spell as you can't have this spell together with SI:Abjuration. What's everyone's opinion? Any objections or suggestions before I implement the idea and add it to V4.3?

@leonidas

I decided to give up the idea of an Improved Mislead spell as it was really problematic.

As I pointed out in my previous post, I don't like that idea because I will not give up SI:Abjuration for Perfect Camouflage. For me, this change will be the same as just taking away Project Image and simply serves to further weaken pure mages. I like PI simply because it supplies extra spell power, which means I can have more spells for the very long battles of IA. Even though I have used PI rarely, I hope it's not done away with.

No if the spell has only these abilities it's just like the common SI: Divination (+ you add I.Invisibility later).
So why should anyone prefer it to a 5 level spell?

Maybe if you added some more abilities/immunities to the spell it would become more useful. But I can't think of anything good right now.

SI: abjuration is not needed in all battles; there are enough enemies I came across who did not use remove magic very much but would make use of True Sight whenever I cast improved invisibility that SI divination was useful. Although I guess only after fighting a particular mage do you discover whether (s)he uses remove magic much or not - on the first runthrough of a particular battle I would stick to SI abjuration.

So I think a spell combining invisibility and SI: div. like this would be useful. Also, Sikret, will you be scripting opponents to cast this new spell (seems like a good idea)?

EDIT: I agree though with thetruth's comments in the post below that the spell is a little weak for a level 7.

The spell is also a 7th level spell in Auramaster's spell collection. I don't think that it is weak as a 7th level spell, because it practically casts two spells simultaneously (not only opens two free slots of 4th and 5th level spells for other choices, but also saves one round of casting time, because if you wanted to cast those two spells normally you needed to wate two rounds which can be very important in the middle of fight.)

Also remember the 6th level clerical spell "Wondrous Recall" which can only bring back to memeory one single spell of lower levels. Compare them together.

Nonetheless, if you can think of an additional effect to be added to the spell (which suits well with its spirit), let me know. The spell's name doesn't need to be identical with the druidic version. So, if you can think of a good effect to be added to it we may change the spell and its name as well. I also suggested other spell effects in my previous posts. For example, we can drop immunity to divination and add other effects instead or we can keep these two effects and add mirro image to it as well (though in this case the name should be changed perhaps).

Mhm... anyone here played IWD?

In D&D 3.X (I've got mostly no clue of the former D&D versions) there are spells which can be used to summon quasi-real creatures. Shadow Conjuration spells. The creature could be likely anything but must be within the spells limits. Such as having only 80% of the real things power. These spells were implented in IWD (mabye only in IWD2, I don't really remember). So one could have "yet another" summoning spell on level 7, but in fact a rather useful one. Instead of only relying on mordys. One could summon weaker versions of strong creatures, controllable demons and the like for example.
What about this idea? As most summons aren't really worth it in IA (or rather in general...) this could maybe actually make a change, as to not only have cannon fodder but creatures which are somewhat powerful, other than a planetar, elemental prince, noble djinn or whatever.

The original spell can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowCon...tionGreater.htm

[edit] On the other hand: Why not take a general look at spells found in other IE games? Protective spells such as Seven Eyes could prove to be a useful replacement for PI, which is a powerful spell if one uses it accordingly. [/edit]

What about adding to the SI:Div. and I.Invisibility (actually it's not I.Inv. since you don't get the bonuses to AC and s.throws) also Blur + Mirror Image?

Still against enemies who cast R.Magic it will not be very effective (unless if you make the enemies to waste it on other party members).

Can you add also another ability to the spell, like immunity to spell casting failure + undispelable for the duration of the spell? (similar to a Force spells ability)
If yes then it would made the spell much more useful in some situations IMO.

With the XP cap remover Simulacrum spell is as cheesy as Project Image, because the clone can cast 9th level spells. So, we need to replace Simulacrum with a new spell too. Since, there are very few good 8th level spells in the game, I think repacing it with a powerful summoning spell won't be a bad idea. Another good idea can be a necromantic regeneration spell, though the current best 8th level spell in the game (ADHW) is already a necromantic one, so perhaps the summoning spell idea may be better. The difficult thing about creating a summoning 8th level spell is to decide what it should summon to be more powerful than lower level summoned creatures but less powerful than a planetar. What do you think?

Some ideas:
1- "Construct Golem" spell. Summons Flesh Golems when the caster's level is 16-19 and summons Stone Golems when the caster's level is 20 or above. (Needless to add that summoning Clay golems is not a good idea because they are immune to all weapon types except the blunt and the spell can then be exploited).
2- An "Improved Spider Spawn" spell which summons the new types of spiders Improved Anvil adds to the game (the type of spider can vary with the caster's level)
3- "Improved Conjure Elemental": A mage version of the druidic spell in which the mage won't need to have any mental combat with the elemental. The elemental can also be 24HD.
5- "Summon Elite Djinni" (summons a more powerful djinni than what the 7th level spellsummons, though not as powerful as what the Ring of Greater Djinni Summoning can conjure)

For now, I slightly lean towards option 3.

Quite like the second option(No Ghost Spiders) there for the summoning spell if we have to lose both PI and simul but would really prefer if at least simul could stay.
The opportunity for exploitation of simul is very limited as you need some seriously high levels to be able to pull that off. It will be a very small minority of people who choose to abuse it and probabaly not the people improved anvil is aimed at, seems to me removing it is a bit uneccesary plus i like the spell.

The trouble with most summons in IA are that they generally last about 5 seconds against the new enemies. Mages just Death Spell them, melee fighters chunk them with one hit. The vanilla golems won't really cut it I don't think, it would have to be gem or coin golems I think for such a spell to be worthwhile. Otherwise the spiders or djinni are OK I guess. Alternatively what about summon Skeleton Lord? (although I suppose this would be necromantic also).

Will these summons be gated in and so immune to death spell?

Sikret if you remove both PI and Simulacrum from the game pure Arcane spell-casters are penalized too much.

If you decide to implement a summoning spell then IMO:

a) It should be "gated".

b ) It should have high physical resistances (at least 50% but no MR since Nishruu and Hakeashar are enough).

c) Good THACO,AC and at least 2 ApR.

Giving the above abilities to the Elite Djinni seems a good idea to me.

Another idea maybe could be to make an improved version of the Tenser's Transformation spell. The same abilities of TT+ the ability for the Mage to cast 1-4 level spells. This could be a spell useful to pure Mages and not overpowered for a 8 level spell. Besides it replaces better the Simulacrum spell.

Thetruth speaks the truth, whereas project image is cheesy and bugged for a large percentage of the game, simlacrum only really becomes an issue right at the end. I wouldn't recommend changing it.

However, if we are going to change it, improved tenser's transformation would be a nice thing for mages to play around with (after all, they already have a plethora of summoning spells). That way pure mages can retain some power despite losing one of their better spells.

Also, there is already a much underused summoning spell in the 8th spell circle: summon cacofiend. It is my belief the demon summoning spells should be improved before adding another summoning spell (I can't think of a reason anyone would cast them atm).

I'm persuaded. I will not replace Simulacrum with a new spell.

It seems to me that removing the PI and simulcrum will make socerers and
mages a lot less usful.I always use PI for before and after battles with
buffing and later rod of ressuraction and than destroy them.

Since all the monsters have more resistences and to get any sorcerer
or mage actually hit something with spells requires few ruby rays,than
removing magical defences and than lowering resistence and than
hoping that they are not immune to fire/acid/whatever you use.

Not sure about the summons instead of simulcrum.The elementals and
djinni can be used with the ring or druid.

Hrm yes, losing project image is a big hit for mages, but frankly I'm against mages having infinite amounts of spells.

It will encourage better spell management this way.

Imp. tenser's transformation would be cool for bridging the power gap between mages and other classes though. If mages are really crippled by this lastest change, that's the idea I like the best.

It's that with all the changes mages(single classed) and sorcerers are
not really usful.I'm using Kelsey as a 12 level sorcerer and he is
used for buffing,breaching(I have Keldorn too,and F/M/T and a F/T to
help with that too because he can't remove defences fast enough).
And than mages also have numerous scrolls for back up and contigencies.
I'm in chaper 2 and Kelsey hardly helps.

Maybe Sikret could make this an optional component or put the new
spells in and make it as a matter of a choice to the player
if he wants to or not.

And that would have to be some serios improved TT since it's a bit hard
to imagine casting it and sending him to melee Firkrag,Mellisan
or any other boss.

About the simulcrum compared to other summons with F/M it gives summon
that grows in power with levels and is usful in contrast
to Sikret suggestions that will compared to enemies will get weaker
and weaker.

I generally prefer my mage to be able to cast spells. I have fighters to do the fighting. I also think that the mage would soon die in many battles without the ability to cast PfMW. Even though he could use scrolls, scrolls are in limited supply.

Concerning spell management: I generally don't use PI even now, and only if I think I need to. Still, some of the battles are soooo long (due to resistances, spamming of PfMW, etc.) that any thing to extend the number of spells is useful. As reported, I went through several wish spells (maybe 5) during the JD finale trying to get "rest and restore spells" to no avail.

I think we now have a good balance, replacing PI but keeping Simul. Should remove most of the scope for cheating while not nerfing mages to any great degree for the average palyer.

@Roy:
A pure class mage in IA is certainly not useless, they just need to be used slightly differently than in the vanilla game. Both times I've played through i've had a single class mage(Kelsey,Edwin) and they've each been key players. In early game they tend to be good for disabling type spells as well as early acess to improved haste, PfMW, ruby ray and several other key spells. However its later in the game in a few of the improved encounters that you'll be really glad you've got a powerful spell slinger on board, promise. Mages are still very useful in IA just not able to take on the whole world single handed the way they used to be able to.

Atm sikret is striking up the best balance between preventing cheesiness and mage's effectiveness.

I was merely chiming in my support for imp tenser's transformation, if something happens in the future regarding mages and their much-reduced power.

As for mages being kept pure spell casters? Well for a start tenser's is already in the game, it's just a worthless spell, and there are plenty of examples of melee-damage spells in infinity engine games and D&D. Mages should have something to do when spells run out.

This isn't a bug but it does annoy me. Could you switch the Mace of Disruption +2's display icon back to the MoD +1's icon? As in the vanilla game, it switches to the icon for a regular Mace +1 after upgrading it. I just hate it because I get paranoid I'll accidentally sell the MoD +2 and not realize it until way later.

Actually, it'd be sweet to add an option to upgrade the mace again to a +3 weapon. It's a fun weapon but sees very little use after the middle game besides to bestow neg plane protection.

I think this display problem was fixed by the Improved Items mod so it should be a pretty easy fix.

Thanks for all the great work, Sikret. I'm on my first play-through (v.4.2) and the mod has been a blast so far.

I agree with this, there are no good maces available before TOB, and about it being ugly when you upgrade.

Btw the MoD+1 is +3 enhanced and the MoD+2 is +5 enhanced.
I think an update in their descriptions is needed.

Is it possible to do something about the effects of Haste described here?

http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm

My browser fails to open the link, Arkain!

I'll appreciate if you explain the problem. Chances are that I may have already fixed them in v4.3 however, because I have implemented some fixes regarding haste effects.

these effects ?

No, they are not fixable.

What I have fixed are two other things:

1- A hasted characters' doubled movement speed would still stack with the movement bonus of Boots of Speed. I have fixed the boots to make sure that they will not stack and won't result in a character with quadruple speed.

2- Moreover, Improved Haste could still be blocked by Globe of Invulnerability in the vanilla game. I have fixed it. The globe should not block a 6th level spell.

If you refer to this:



then unfortunately it cannot be fixed.

Hmm... strange that your browser won't open it. Bah, the link doesn't work as intented anyway... -.- (and now we've learnt: always test links beforehand)


What I was referring to is listed in the "General Spell Info" part:



[edit] So these issues are not fixable? Mhm... oh well.
On the other hand I remembered something else I read in the spells reference: The original game's GoI blocked Improved Haste... which is interesting as according to the Spells Reference (which is the website to which the link should lead you) Improved Haste is handled differently than a normal 6th level spell:



I don't know what you changed, but you might take a look at this issue as well, Sikret. [/edit]

Mages seem to use their sequencers/triggers even when unconscious/stunned/etc.

...Or when they have a protection from magic scroll on them (this one is probably a bit of a cheese tactic...I haven't saved after doing this one)