You can encounter with Limak only if you have mage protagonist, what else you will probably won't meet with Limak if you play multiclass mage. I think it is pointless to have an item which can be used by tripleclass mage and they have real chance to get only if you have a single class mage protagonist. I suggest to change this potion to be surely available if you play tripleclass protagonist.

Hi shadan!

If I remember the description of the potion correctly, it can be used by Mages or Cleric/Mages. Hence, I'm not too sure if a FMC can use it.

For the forging of the item triggering Limak, perhaps its great advantages are to reward a single-class mage for their dedication in magecraft? Due to balance issues, I feel that Sikret is right in not making this available to Fighter-Mages, but he could consider making it usable by non Fighter Cleric/Mages as well?

Well, it seems my memory is too cloudy or item is changed since 4.2. I am pretty sure in 4.2 it was an item for tripleclass mages. Sorry for not being precise...

Initial post updated with some important improvements especially in the "Tweaks applied to the vanilla game" section.

I have just read the first post in this thread, and have several questions:

Spell "wish" - will the "make if rested.." be area-dependant? For example, there are plenty of areas in the game where you can not be interrupted if you rest. Will this be changed?

xp cap - I don't know what I'm missing here, but I never got past lvl 34 as a vagrant.... Finished all the quests, using no inf.experience exploits, but this seems to be the max doe to new exp.points tables

time stop/improved alcatry combo - will this be omitted from JD sword also?

new version of imp.invis for enemy mages - I've noticed that chain contigency can be fired on imp.invisible creatures (for example, 2xruby ray + breach), making enemy mages who use it late in the game (once you get chain contingency) a walkover. will this possibility also be ommited from the game?

We are discussing this issue with the testing team. There are arguments and counter arguments for both sides. so far, our decision is not to make it area-dependent, but this may change later after hearing all of the arguments. (NOTE: This thread is not for sending arguments for this case; send me a PM if you want).

You mean you played the entire game and your protagonist never reached 10,200,000 xp (the xp to have a 35th level ranger), eh?

Well, it has no contradiction with what I said: The new xpcap is more than enough for your ranger not to even notice that a cap exists.

Of course, you are playing IA v5. In IA v6 we have many new quests, but on the other hand, some monsters' xp values are decreased in v6 and some vanilla quests grant less xp . It makes it very hard to do a very accurate comparison between v5 and v6 regarding the total possible amount of xp the player can gain in the entire game. In some respects, IA v6 includes more xp (because of the new quests), but in some other respects, it includes fewer xp (because of monsters' xp value).



JD sword has a chance per hit to cast Wish spell. This much is not omitted, but since the caster is the wielder of the sword and the wielder is not a mage, he will never gain the TimeStop+ImprovedAlacrity option.



Yes, this cheesy trick will no longer work. Enemies don't use it against you either. It's fair play.

yup, got to 35th level after EDE

I play IA at the second time (I know it is not too much!) and I meet again with the same problem. At the beginning everything is more or less "easy" but when I reached level 10-11 (on average) then everything become tough. Until that point the quests are relatively easy but at that point everything become really hard. And a bit later (when my characters reach level 12-13) everything became easy again. Is it not possible to balance it somehow? Do other people notice the same?

There are several possible solutions for this problem (if it exists based on other opinions as well): XP for level up can be lowered a bit (to gain level faster) or some quests can be made a bit easier or some quests can give more XP. One example for the last option could be the last quest from Aran Linvail. In this quest Tanova is ok but Lassal is very weak. In this quest the characters can earn more XP if enemies are refined.

Few questions about "wish - make if rested....". Will it also remove negative buffs (greater malison etc) from your party along with positive buffs?
Will the type of creatures who appear (during the night) be dependant on your xp level?
Chain Contingency will be usable once a day. will it be usable after "wish - make if rested" again?

Tentatively, I'll answer your 3rd question first, though Sikret should confirm it:



From the way Sikret fixed it, I think Wish Rest would not make Chain Contingency usable immediately... you would probably have to rest normally or wait it out, and this would likely be reflected in the updated spell description. I think the same would probably apply to Enchanted Weapon, but I don't think IA players would still be using this particular spell by then.

Yes.

In the current testing version of the spell, no, the hostile creatures don't vary with the character's xp. However, they are not weak creatures and since this case mostly happens in the middle of some other battle, those hostile creatures can make a differnence even if the character who has cast wish is high level, specially because the characters' buffs will also be dispelled.



No, as LZJ pointed out.

Does it mean that random enemies can appear when you choose the "wish - make if rested...." option? I do not see it as a problem but I think it is not logical. Based on my understanding the random enemy appears becuase you spent at least 8 hours in one position. When you do it with the Wish spell then you do not spend there any time, effects take place immediately.

Yes, but the djinni gates those creatures into the game *as if* you have spent a full night resting. It's the same for dispelling your enchantments, you do not actually waste so much time that your buffs expire, but the djinni makes it *as if* you have done so.

It's all about the fact that the djinni tries to interpret your wish wording in a particular way to make life harder for you. Since you use the words "as if the party has rested a full night", the djinni can interpret it in that way too.

Yes, I agree with it. I knew that when using wish you have to be very careful. But I think using that logic the Chain Contingency should be useable again (like your items).

I don't know wether this is the right thread for this note, but shouldn't that Ring of Wizardy (I don't know the exact item name, but Harpers have it) be moved somewhere else instead of that evil Harper for whome you must have Jaheira in your party? I mean, getting that other mage ring (acuity perhaps?) from Lavok isn't all that easy, and the ring from Harpers is much more valuable (I believe it's +1spells from 5-7 lvl or something, which is a huge boost early on, and you can get it asap). Item Randomizer, exp.Mage Stronghold (new quests for IA6)..or something. Doesn't make sense that such an item is easy loot.

You are right. The ring is already removed from that creature in IA v6 (even if I haven't mentioned it in the progress report; I naturally can't and don't write every small thing there in the progress report). It didn't really make any sense to have more than one Ring of Wizardry in the game, specially because it is even written in the ring's description that it was originally commissioned by spellcaster <CHARNAME> (referring to te fact that your apprenti in the planar sphere have made it for you).

Sikret, did you refine the XPs for monsters in V6? I think in most cases the XP you got for the enemy is not correlate to it's power. I am sure it is quite a big work to balance them but can it be done? Just one example: Director in Firkraag dungeon is a joke for 10k XP but at the same time the Guardian is really very-very tough and the 8k XP is definitely too small for it. I killed the Guardian with my party (10-11th level characters) but all of my characters were very heavily damaged at the end of the fight. We killed the golems (in my case it was 1 Cojn, Stone, Clay and Bone golem) in that dungeon more easily than the Guardian itself (and they gave ~50-60k XP together). When I get too much XP for a battle then I always feel that I steal the XP and when I get less XP than expected then I feel I am somehow cheated.

I know it is not a big issue because what matter is how much XP you get generally during the game but it still disturb me a bit. I know also that the difficulties of battles depend on your party composition but in several cases it is still not the reason of this unbalance.

As I've said before, yes, the xp value of monsters are re-balanced. Golems, in particular, have less xp value than in v5.

This may be true for some cases, but not for 'most cases'.



The director in Firkraag's dungeon was a vanilla creature and his xp was that in the vanilla game. In IA v6, the director is totally removed from the game; a brand new creature is added to the dungeon (as mentioned in the first post in this topic).



Yes, since you are currently playing an irregular party, your impression of the battles' difficulty levels is highly influenced by your party composition.

I have a question. Is there anything in a mod just for fighters (probably pure ones?). I recently started playing with fighter as protagonist as i though it would be good choice to try to get this nice judgement sword and i realized that its use it not limited to fighters but just warriors.

I think its kinda lacking that there isn't anything for fighters (and i think its also the case with clerics) while other classes have nice things (quests/items) just for them. Its especially visible when figter is compared to ranger..

Specific new content for pure fighter protagonists (Expanded Fighter Stronghold) will be added to IA v7.

As far as new content/quests are concerned, the best choice in IA v5 is to pick a ranger (preferably Vagrant) protagonist.

In IA v6, mage, druid and ranger will be equally good, though they will have access to separate and different new quests; so if one wants to see all of the new quests in IA v6, he will need to play the mod for at least three times (once with single-class mage, once with druid, and once with Vagrant).

Thanks for an answer. I knew about all the stuff for the vagrant (rangers) but really wanted to play with Valygar in a party and duplicating a class(ranger) didn't seem right at all. Besides this i of course got wrong impression what judgement sword events are just for fighters (i'm really suprised they aren't, it kinda seems logical to me).

Anyway i will continue playing with my current party. I think i will also post a journal of my play (full party, no cheating) to motivate me to avoid any cheating . Is any acceptance for such topic needed from you?

regards
Nivellen

Send your journal to the forum, Nivellen!

No special acceptance is needed. Everyone is qualified (by default) unless he proves the opposite, which I'm sure won't be the case with you either. Actually, we never had cheaters here in IA's forum (except for one case). Every sensible player who chooses IA to play, does it for the fun of the new content as well as the challenge and won't naturally spoil his own fun with cheats and cheesy methods.

Cheers

Hi

I'm still reading to gather information about IA, but I can't find a list of items randomized. Does such a list excist? I'm not looking for where the items end, just which items cannot be found in their original place anymore. You know to plan ahead it would be easier if it excisted.

It sounds like you (Sikret) are revising most of the classes with regards to extended materials, will you by any chance alter clerics anyday?

Do you intend to revitalize the starter dungeon?

I will be back with more questions as I progress in the studies of IA

Dementia

I'm pretty sure there's not a list of randomized items available for the public. I'd imagine Sikret would say: "Play the game and find out!"

I think suggest Sikret to improve the first dungeon is a strange method of suicide!
You have chance now to get some equipment and experience before you face the improved enemies, but that would be very frustrating if we must face improved monsters without final party and decent equipment.

It could be something a la improved illych. I'm not talking suicide rather small changes.

I have a suggestion about traps. In v5 thief's traps are not so useful. I know one of the reason when a player can laya lot of traps before fight. Yes, that is cheesy method. I know also Time Trap will be removed in v6. But I would like to recommend to make normal, Spike and Explosing traps a bit more useful. They should make a significant damage on most enemies and according to this, lets make trap duration to 1 hour, and you cannot lay another trap of same type within 1 hour. With this changes with a thief I could use 1-1 normal, exploding and spike trap in each battle, but no more. Well, in each battle per days until my trap limit is run out for that day.

With this change I also suggest to change Skull Trap and Glyph of Warding. Now I can lay like 100 each of them. Cast all, rest, cast all etc. After this I lure monster to traps, and if enemies not imunne to lower resistance, I can cast some of that and lure to trap after their MR is canceled. So I suggest 8 hours max. duration for these 2 traps. Of course I still can lay a lot of spell traps with Wish (even with v6 changed Wish), but I think that requires a lot of patience and time. And when I can cast Wish, I am sure many of us won't bother with casting Wish and reloading till rest option comes up.

As mentioned in the first post of this topic, I'm working on making single-class swashbucklers a lot more interesting to play with. All traps along with the cheesy UAI will be removed from their HLA table and new HLAs will be added instead. One or two new item upgrades will also be added to let the player forge items usable only by Swashbucklers to compensate the lack of UAI. Those items won't be usable by other thieves (and bards) even with UAI ability. Swashbucklers were already the most respectable thieves in the game; let's see if we can prepare them for a fully fair and honorable playing style or not.

As for Skull Trap and Glyph of Warding, you are right; they are cheesy. I will do something about them.

I think it is ok as it is now. It is this way even in the standard paper-based game.

But I was thinking about some spells. As I remember MR works against this spells:
- Earthquake
- Summon Insect
- Summon Plague
- Creeping Doom

And I think it should not work. Based on my understanding the magic of these spells do not affect the target directly, they summon creatures or affect the earth and then these effects affect the targets. Other types of resistance could make a role here (like resistance against crushing damage in case of earthquake for example).

I am almost sure that MR works against the last three but I never tested Earthquake.

I agree; I can see the point about the fireball (and this can be applied to other spells) but it would make too much difference - it would make battles too easy. Since enemies have far more magic resistance than characters the party is put at too big an advantage.



Earthquake ignores magic resistance. As for the others, really magic resistance has to apply for balance reasons. Already Creeping Doom allows no saving throw. It would be too effective if it bypassed magic resistance too.

Of course I did not want to make any unbalanced modification. But there could be new spells that protect against this effect. I tested it against the Cahos and as I remember none of the Spell Immunity spells protect against it. I think it is logical, so no problem there. But Absolute immunity or PFmW should give protection against this spell. Also priests and druids should have a protection against it.

As I the difficulty of Underdark (from spellhold till end of Underdark) depends on your - single class - protagonist level. If you go there not above 14th level (below 15th) then it is the easiest. I think the next step is at level 17th.

Ok, that sounds fair but there is one problem. If you want to get the easiest version then the average party level can be extremely different. If your protagonist is a blade then he can collect only maximum 1350000 XP before entering Spellhold and it means that your average party level is ~12-13th level (warriors can be on 12th level, mage/priest/monk is on 13th). However in the best case if you have a druid protagonist then he can collect almost 3 million XP before level up to 15th level, so your other party members can be between 16th-21st level (thief/blade: 21, warriors: 16-18, priest/monk: 19, wizard: 17). Ok, these are extreme examples, but even if we choose only vagrant or mage protagonist then there is still usually one level difference in the average party level (advantage is to the vagrant).

Is it really how the current version is working? I think an XP based solution would be much more fair (limit could be for example 2.2 million XP).

Ah wrong topic....

Great news. I suggested this after my 4.2 run... it would be wise to check the list of potions and scrolls which can be created with these HLAs. It is not too big thing to get crappy lvl 1 and 2 scrolls when you have some HLAs. They should do better srcolls and potions, but maybe these HLAs can be get only once each.



Can single class thieves get only 1 Assasination? If yes, then OK. If not, then I don't understand this.

This is great also. I mentioned in 4.2 this too. Not too big thing to get trap HLAs when you don't have Set Trap skill. I hope bards will get new HLAs instead of traps.



I don't understand this 2 changes. Can you highlight the reasons, Sikret. I don't want to argue, just I would like to understand it.



Does this means multiclass thieves will get less and weaker HLAs? F/T, F/M, F/C all?

Hmm since Sikret and Raven have not replied yet, I'll do my best to answer some of these questions from my own IA experiences.

@Vuki:



You are partially right in that protagonists must reach Spellhold before 15th level if they wish to take on the easiest difficulty level. However, I think that there is ALSO an experience points criteria: your protaganist must be below a certain amount of XP in addition to being below 15th level to qualify for this easiest difficulty, and I believe this XP level to be some where between...

SPOILER!


Hence, there ALREADY is an XP based solution. Therefore, a party with a druid protagonist cannot accumulate as much XP as you've described. This just goes to show that Sikret is really thorough.


@shadan:

Single class thieves are only allowed to take Assassination once in the vanilla game. However, multi-class theives could take it more than once.

The reason for the change in Chain Contingency is that it's casting time is bugged, and spells can be cast off instantly, making it even superior to Improved Alacrity in some respects, and is a bug that can easily be exploited. Therefore, Sikret modified it to limit the use of cheesy tactics with it.

For Improved Alacrity, I believe Raven suggested this because it allows multi-class characters to use Improved Alacrity in conjunction with their HLAs, like the laying of multiple Time Traps in an instant or using Greater Whirldwind, Critical Strike and/or Assassination all at the same time... imagine 10 Critical backstabs in 1 round! This is certainly not something which Improved Alacrity should be used for... it should only be for spells.

Exactly.

LZJ is also right about the way Spellhold works; there is both an xp and a level check.

This is what Sikret has written in the "Document II-Tactical content & new adventures.txt":

Now we have 3 options:
- I misunderstood something
- the description in the document is misleading
- you are not right

I found one post where he cleared that issue in here.


So, I think there is no XP limit.

Yes, just remembered that you had suggested this. The credit of this fix will be yours in the mod's readme.



PM me your suggestions for new HLAs for bards.

@Vuki

Regarding spellhold, it's as LZJ and Raven have said. I will edit the document in the readme to make it clearer. In my various posts in the forums about the Improved Spellhold, sometimes I have mentioned the xp and sometimes (= mostly when I was fairly sure that the player who had asked the question was playing a ranger or a mage) I have referred to 'level'.

Ok, thanks for the info! It is good that you update the readme because it is misleading. It really does not affect most players but there could be some players who play with a druid protagonist and for them it is very misleading.

Could you please clarify the situation for bards and other fast developing classes? They reach level 15 much before this XP gap. Could they go to spellhold on higher levels or spellhold is improved (I mean harder) when any of the two conditions (XP and level) are fullfilled?

I'm not sure about v6 as I'm not a playtester yet (but I intend to ask Sikret to let me join sometime next month). In v5 however, Bards and Thieves will still experience an improved Spellhold if they arrive there at level 15.

What's written in the readme is accurate for players who play single-class protagonists of any class. Its only problem is that it is silent about multi-class protagonists.



For single-class protagonist of any class, it works as mentioned in the readme (= level counts). For multi-class protagonists, it's the xp.

Then you misunderstood something.

It is what LZJ has written:


It means that the single class druid protagonist can be maximum 13th level when entering Spellhold if he wants to get the easy Spellhold. Is it true or not? I think it is not true at least based on the information that you have written in your last post. But then my problem is still there.

My problem is that when you play a single class druid protagonist then your party average level could be much higher when you enter Spellhold comparing it to the case when you play by any other class. You just have to delay your travelling to Spellhold. I am not sure how much you can gain from it, I have no information how your level determines difficulty of Underdark and other area in chapter 4 and 5. But the problem is still there: if you play a blade protagonist your average party level can be maximum 12-13 (to get the easy spellhold) and when you play a druid it can be 16-18 or even more.

I just want to highlight the problem a bit. If you enter Spellhold with a party where average level is 16-18 (druid protagonist) then Spellhold is not a challenge anymore. If your party level is only 12 (in case of a blade/thief protagonist) then Spellhold is very-very challenging.

Yes, it is true. Thanks for reminding the druids to me. A 14th level single-class druid will also go to the next (= harder) improved spellhold. Druid is the only single-class character for whom it's the xp (rather than the level) which determines the difficulty of spellhold (EDIT: It's probably needless to emphasize that it's already working in this way in v5. I'm not talking about v6 here).

That sounds reasonable. However I still think that a blade/thief protagonist has a definite disadvantage because he can collect much less XP and therefore average party level is much lower (same is true for priest and monk protagonist). Is it ok in your opinion? I think it should be a bit balanced.

BTW, while don't you use the XP in every case? Is it more balanced in that way? Or what was the reason? I think the current solution is a bit misleading (especially if someone read only the readme) and could cause real problems for some players. How about if you just use an explicit XP limit instead of this mixed solution?

Using a pure xp limitation will lead to serious disadvantage for rangers and paladins compared to fighters. While a 15th level ranger will face the harder versions of the spellhold, a fighter has to be 17th level to satisfy that criterion. And while a 17th level ranger will face the hardest version of spellhold, a fighter needs to be 19th level for that. The mixed solution guarantees balance between different types of warriors (rangers and paladins vs. fighters).

However, it's true that with the current solution, things are not fully satisfactory for rogue protagonists. I will probably add a more complex method to check protagonist's class (as well) and then apply different xp limitations for different classes. With new changes to the swashbuckler kit in v6, some players may indeed want to play with a swshbuckler protagonist and it's good to make things fair for them.

I do not agree here. The problem is that you concentrate only on the protagonist. But as we all know IA is not supposed to play in solo mode. So, let's examine a very simple party composition that contains only fighters and rangers (just for the simplicity). There are 3 fighters and 3 rangers but the protagonist is different (once one of the fighter is the protagonist and other case it is one of the ranger) and they go to there at the latest stage when it is possible to get the easy version).

Current version:

1st version: protagonist is ranger.
- the 3 rangers are on level 14th and the 3 fighters are on level 16th

2nd version: protagonist is a fighter
- the 3 rangers are on level 13th and the 3 fighters are on level 14th

Result: average party level is 1-2 level higher when protagonist is a ranger.

Using XP limit of 2.350.000 (current limit for rangers):

1st version: protagonist is ranger.
- the 3 rangers are on level 14th and the 3 fighters are on level 16th

2nd version: protagonist is a fighter
- the 3 rangers are on level 14th and the 3 fighters are on level 16th

Result: average party level is the same in both cases.

You can see that using an XP limit is more balanced. I suggest to you to test it with different party formations and use 5 or 6 characters party and not only one single protagonist. Create one party and always use this one!!! Change the protagonist and test what is the average party level with this protagonist. Then you will see clearly that it is unbalanced.

Your analysis is correct, but it's to some extent intentional to put a bit more emphasis on the protagonist in the current method. Pleayers who choose fighter protagonist for faster level up will need to accept the consequences. I said that I would probably change it for rogues in v6, but I didn't say that I would make the situation for them to be totally equal with rangers, paladins, druids and mages. Parties in which the protagonist levels up faster will always have a slight disadvantage in spellhold, but that's intentional.

One real life example. Party is the following:

- Vagrant
- Berserker
- Blade
- Cleric
- Cleric/mage
- Sorcerer

I think it is really an average IA party (however could be better with a dual-classed cleric). There could be two reasonable candidates for the protagonist: sorcerer and vagrant. Let's examine it! I highlighted the difference compared to the vagrant case.

1. case: the vagrant is the protagonist. Party level when entering to Spellhold (vagrant has maximum XP):
14 - 16 - 18 - 16 - 12/12 - 15

2. case: the sorcerer is the protagonist.
14 - 15 - 17 - 16 - 12/12 - 14

Other cases (maybe not reasonable for IA but some plays not with the most powerfull party composition):

3. case: the berserker is the protagonist.
13 - 14 - 17 - 15 - 11/12 - 14

3. case: the cleric is the protagonist.
13 - 14 - 16 - 14 - 11/12 - 14

You can clearly see that 3 characters from the 6 are 1 lever higher when protagonist is vagrant compared to a sorcerer protagonist. Every characters are on higher level when protagonist is berserker or cleric and in the case of cleric there are even 3 cases when diference is 2 levels!

See my previous post. The differences in levels are not extreme, but when some difference are seen, they are mostly intentional as explained above.