Hi, all

Since Imoen is going to change to a sorceress, I want to change all of her dialogue lines in the vanilla game in which she probably refers to herself as a thief or talks about own thieving skills. If you know when and where she has some such lines in the game let me know. If you can also send me the exact wordings of what she says in each case, you will save much of my time and will help me release the mod sooner.

Thanks in advance

EDIT: Of course, I don't expect one single person to find and send all those lines to me. If you can remember even one dialogue in which Imoen refers to herself as thief, don't hesitate to send it. I can perform a search in an editor, but I may easily miss some of the lines if I use the wrong searching key words to detect each of them.

In ToB, Imoen has a banter with Keldorn where she tries to pickpocket him.



The relevant STRREF is 68660, and the dialogue file in question is BKELDO25.DLG.

Thanks a million, aVENGER!

Since Keldorn's line is also voiced, I decided not to touch that particular line. The banter proceeds as follows:

K: Imoen! What... are you pawing at me yet again? Do you think I do not notice? You are attempting to steal pickpocket me, aren't you?!

I: Well, no... I just...

K: Just what? Out with it, girl. I won't have a party member stealing from me.

This last line is not voiced and I thought to change it to this:



Since the whole banter was about Imoen trying to steal something from Keldorn, I thought not to change it radically. Any better suggestion as to how to handle this particular banter will be appreciated.

Sikret download the NPC Interactions Guide by Dave Milward (found in Sorcerer's Place): link


You can find there all the dialogues lines of Imoen.

How will this change be implemented? I'm not asking to stir trouble, because it's none of my business what IA does to Imoen's profession, but many mods deal with Imoen's relationship with the PC and with the group as a whole. This means that there are many interjections into her dialogue file, and mod plot-defining variables set there. Bypassing or falsing out states might cause other mods to break, and replacing the lines textually might cause their content to be rendered confusing.

Again, I am not writing this as an attempt to dissuade you from doing what you want to do, but rather asking that you let the community know so that mods that have Imoen content might update their documentation to include possible advisories.

Thanks.

@thetruth
Thank you so very much for the link.

@berelinde
The changes will be applied in a friendly way with other mods. No dialogue state will be bypassed or falsed out. However, if any other mod *requires* Imoen to be a thief, then naturally there will be conceptual (not technical) incompatibilities.

Conceptual incompatibilities don't worry me, only the technical ones.

You see, I'm starting on the BG2 portion of Gavin, with the possibility of an NPC/NPC romance. I don't much care if people scratch their heads in confusion if he makes a reference to a profession she no longer has. I can even live with interjections that wind up sounding like nonsequiters because the original dialogue is changed. I was just concerned that variables set in a state might be inadvertantly skipped.

I believe that concerning to Imoen's dialog there is another one talking about thieving/pickpocketing. It is a banter (don't quite sure if it is from Vanilla BG2 or from Ascension) that usually triggers in Saradush's inn. It's between you, Imoen and Aerie (if Aerie's romance is active) about Immy stealing cookies from you and Aerie worried about the Taint.

Don't sure if this helps in something or not, but I hope that it does.

Thanks, Magnus!

I have performed a through search and have already fixed all of Imoen's talks which I found to be related to her thieving skills. It's of course still possible that I might have missed something. Currently, I don't remember the piece of dialogue you mentioned. If you can verify that it is the vanilla game, I will check again.

Glad to help!

Unfortunately I can't do that. It's going to be very difficult for me this summer just only to play because RL stuff.

If you can at least give the exact wording, I will do a search. But if you can't, nevermind. As I said, I have already done a thorough search.

The cookie conversation isn't really related to her thieving skills . It's the following one I grabbed from that NPC interactions guide which thetruth linked us to and I find it quite amusing (and befits even if she were a sorceress).

It seems that I was mistaken then. Thanks for finding it Irumen!

Well, you weren't completely mistaken there

The changes I have so far applied (in addition to the banter with Keldorn mentioned above) are these. If I have missed anything, I'll appreciate if you send a reminder:

1- Protagonist says to Fate Spirit in Pocket plane:
2- Cernd to Imoen:


3- Imoen to Cernd:
4- Imoen to protagonist:


5- Imoen to Volo:


The last one is due to the fact that I have re-distributed Imoen's attributes for better performance when casting wish spell (moved some points of Charisma to Wisdom).

4-Imoen to Protagonist
Just an idea:
----

5- Imoen to Volo:


I understand the logic, but perhaps Imoen should still glare at Volo!

------

I think the original line really captures her character! Plus I always thought Imoen to be quite the schemer (in a good-hearted fun way of course).

Thank you, luan!

As you suggested, I'll add "Watch, see? See how I scheme and glare at you... don't I look evil?" to the end of it. Good suggestion!

EDIT: I was posting when you edited your post. The other suggestion is very good too. I will use it.

"the" is redundant in this sentence. You can simply remove it making the text:



I think nr 5 does not necessarily have to be adjusted. Wise vs Beautiful as well. An ugly Imoen can still tell Volo that in all the stories all sorceresses are beautiful and therefore Imoen should be mentioned as being beautiful as well. I think that might even make more sense too.
Besides, it kind of depends on how many points you shuffled. She began with 11 Wisdom and 16 Charisma. Can I ask what the new distribution would be? Anyway, a charisma of 10-12 is normal and if she still has a charisma of 13+, we can still be interpret that in the sense that she is at least beautiful above average or at least attractive above average.

Thanks for the grammatical point about the redundant "the". I'll fix it.

The new charisma is 9! (unless you want me to keep her beautiful but less efficient with wish spell)

And I couldn't spend her intelligence to increase her wisdom, because I have already exchanged her intelligence with her strength. In short, I have made her a most efficient sorcerer for IA's battles (wis=18 & str=17). With the new strength she has THAC0 and damage bonus if she decides to take one of those mighty staves (which are usable only by single-class mages) and to get into battle with golems.

I don't view charisma so much as only personal appearance. I see it more as ability to lead, charm, personal radiance, etc. Besides, Imoen's portrait is already there, and it's not an ugly Imoen

Some justification for a lower charisma score could be that she's not necessarily someone you would leave in charge. And most of the time it is difficult to take her seriously!

Ah yes, there's also the persuasion part of charisma. A charisma of 9 is quite low though. That means she has a -1 penalty towards npc reaction adjustment (according to my tables). I don't think she's the type for that, especially with all her banters. A 10 gets her no penalty and I would probably see that as a minimum.

I also don't know about Imoen as an 18 wisdom sorceress though. Although this helps the Wish spell tremendously, I would rather see her as a 17 or 16, allowing some minor personal flaw. I mean, none/not many of the other NPCs has perfect caster stats in the game. Is there some wisdom increasing gear in bg2 that she might use later on in the game? Early on she wouldn't be using Wish anyway, so later when this type of gear is available it wouldn't matter anymore. Seems to befit better roleplaying-wise.... but it doesn't matter in the overall, lol. I'm just thinking out loud right now.

Sikret, IMO a Str 17 is not particularly useful for fighting (17 = only +1 to hit, +1 damage). If I was going to use Imoen for fighting golems etc. I would (at the very least) cast a Strength spell on her beforehand for Str 18:50. So couldn't you keep some more points on either Cha or Int?

If you're changing her so much, maybe it's just better to introduce a completely new sorceress NPC with these stats instead?

Yes, a strength spell makes a lot more sense.

Yes, I can.

Redistribute her 17 strength for me and give me your suggestion, please. But note than Imoen doesn't have access to Strength Spell or Tenser's Transformation (though the latter can be picked by the player later on). So, decreasing her strength means that if she wants to get into hand-to-hand battles, she will need to rely on another mage for the strength spell (which is a big inconvenience, IMO).

Something like:

Strength: 9
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 15
Wisdom: 17
Charisma: 12


Can Imoen use the Royal Elemental Staff type quarterstaves? All Staves are listed as mage (or cleric/druid) in the readme, but Sorceress == Mage? The Royal Elemental Staff has Tenser's for Free (if you get to forge it of course)

Sorcerers are mage types. She should be able to use it.

I agree with Iroumen's stat distribution but I would take a point off Str to get Wis 18 (there is no difference between Str 8 and 9 as far as I know, whereas for Wish there is a difference between 17 and 18). So I would have:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

I agree with some redistribution of her stars, but changing her so much is totally changing her. She will no longer be Imoen. Besides, her class change is somewhat due to the experiments Irenicus has been doing with her, no? So, why just change her class and add her new ability? Changing her stats so drastically does not feel good.

I know that Wish spell is almost vital in IA (refreshing spells) but why don't use potions? Even if you have erased some potions there may be a few, no?

My opinion is to leave her as she is in terms of stats. But if you are completely decided to change them at least leave them more or less like:

STR: 9
DEX:18 - 17
CON:16
INT:15
WIS:14 - 15
CHA:14

With these stats she can have more chances to make the wish correctly, no? (and even if the chance of failure is high it's just more challenge, no?) The lose of INT and CHA can be justificated because of she being less jovial and childlish after what she has went through (yes, the lose of INT can't be that easily justificated in that way), and the more points in WIS can be gained because of that same experience.

Another thing you can do is change the two more points she gets in ToB because of the growing taint in her. In the Vanilla game she gains 1 STR and 1 DEX. You can put them in WIS if you wish.

Just a question: Will she be a sorceress from the very beginning or will she still be a thief/mage in Irenicus Dungeon and change in Spellhold? And, given the case, could we, players change her class again to thief/mage without screwing everything up with SK?

IIRC IA removes those potions. Or, to be more precise, replaces them with some healing potions.

Still I fail to see why a sorcerer should have higher wisdom than charisma. In BG cha and wis imho both useless in equal measure (comparing with other stats). So, high cha at least reflects sorcerer's personality, but wis? Sounds to be out of character.

EDIT
I never use Wish - it requires to be casted ~5 times in order to get "rest" or "2TS+IA". Useless and dangerous spell if you ask me.

I quite agree with this sentiment, have loved everything else about IA but the complete stripping out and replacing of imoen is not something i'm that keen on. Just think it would make more sense to put in a new NPC rather than completely alter and old one especially one so well developed and key to the story as Imoen. Her rogue skills and high CHA score have always seemed key to her character and to the story itself.

Anyhow dont want to be seen as having a go, just my thoughts. Anyhow can't wait for 4.3, finally time to try a vagrant protagonist.

Just want to say I like Iroumen or Raven's proposed stats. I too don't think a high strength fits Imoen's character or is a necessity.
I managed to defeat IA's golems just fine with my melee characters. Additionally, 4.3 will allow casters to use vampiric touch as well as the new anti-golem spell!

However!
Another consideration is that Imoen could simply have more stat points than the other NPC's. I mean, look at Sarevok!

Str: 18/00
Dex: 17
Con: 18
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

lol!

Imoen too, is one of the final surviving children of Bhaal. There's plenty of justification for her to have really high ability scores, and even justification for her to grow even more powerful throughout the game, just like the protagonist.

Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 18
Cha: 16

!!!!

And that's still one less stat point than Sarevok!

Also, I humbly disagree with introducing a new NPC. The current roster is already so fleshed out with banters, romances, and interjections. It would require a dedicated team a year to properly spit and shine the dialog/back-story to make it of the same caliber of the current cast.

I personally always feel obligated to take Imoen along for role play purposes. She's just too much of a central and lovable character of the saga. I'm sure many players share the same sentiment.

Ah, that's actually not a bad idea.

1- You can keep her Thief/Mage in Irenicus' Dungeon with her normal stats. People can use her in the starting Dungeon without problems.
2- When you party up with her again in Spellhold you can change her into a Sorceress with the same original Imoen stats.
Then after joining up you can add a simple banter about how Irenicus tortured her and how she learnt things about the Taint, finalising the banter in a little experience gain (probably related to the party level difference) and a respectful increase in Wisdom. You can raise it to 18 if you like and maybe if you want a stat drain on something like charisma (though not too much, she can have a net-gain in stat-score being a Child of Bhaal). That should then reflect the wisdom she earned about the Taint when she was being tortured and how much her mood swung around to something less joyful.
Finally to make the whole picture complete, add the random Innate spell ability after the banter as a "Irenicus awoke my magic capabilities and some unknown ability within me, help me find out what it does" and we're done.

That would explain everything quite nicely. It can explain the profession change, the stat change and the innate ability gain.... as well as the experience gain.




Btw, I forgot that Sikret removed the wisdom potions, but then it means that no NPC can actually use the Wish spell correctly, so now I understand why a party would benefit so much from the Imoen wisdom stat increase if the Protagonist isn't a mage. Simply because the Wish spell is then largely useless. Kind of a pity though, that no NPC can use Wish very well. I had only used it as a protagonist mage myself, I forgot about it.

@ Magnus, Iroumen

Just to clarify, Sikret's original suggestion was, I believe, that Imoen is as normal in Irenicus' Dungeon (thief/mage dual), and will be changed to a sorceress (with any changes in stats etc.) once you've rescued her from Spellhold.

From your posts it sounded like you might not have realised this.

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

I assure you that I am considering all suggestions, but you also surely know that there are many factors that I should consider before accepting any suggestion. Not to mention that there are certain things (both in the vanilla game and in IA) that I may be aware of while you may have not known or may have just forgotten.

Now a few remarks:

1- Intelligence is not a useful stat for a sorcerer, whereas wisodm is most important. So giving here an INT of 15 or more seems quite waste of points.

2- My original plan was to make Imoen a sorceress just after you meet her in spellhold, but later other factors and considerations made me change the plan. She will be a sorceress from the beginning. Hence, there is actually no change in her stats. Whatever stats we assign to her will be her default stats. There is no need to seek justification for why experiments in spellhold may have changed her stats, beause the stats have not actually changed.

3- Introducing a new NPC is out of question and quite irrelevant. The idea of changing Imoen's class was due to the fact that the vanilla game (absurdly) had two identical NPCs. Introducing a new NPC will not solve the mentioned problem.

4- As for "strength" spell, it has actually a problem which makes it a rather bad spell. It always overrides other items' bonuses to strength (regardless of the order). For example, if you have a character with girdle of giant strength, casting "Strength" spell on him will actually decrease her strength. And this regardless of the order, which means that even if you cast the spell before wearing the girdle, it's the "Strength" spell which will again take precedence. Also, the difference of THAC0 and damage bonus between 17 and 18/50 strength is slim. Having a permanent 17 str is much more reliable than having a temporary and unstable str of 18/50.

5- luan's suggestion that Imoen's total stats can be a bit more than those of the vanilla game seems a very good suggestion to me. I can keep her 18 wisdom and 17 str and also give her a minimum charisma and intelligence higher than 9.

I need to think more. Comments are welcome.

I understand that your desire of giving her a STR of 17 is due to the fact that then she can fight against Golems more properly (with the new spells and the apropiate staff) and that the 18 score in WIS is for her to cast Wish correctly (mainly to refresh spells) but then again I disagree, and I'll tell you why:

-Not every player will choose Wish as a spell, because they don't like it, they use different tactics or as someone else said, it is a long spell in terms of casting time. So, if for example I'm not planning to use Wish, why I need a WIS of 18? I could benefit more of a 16 CHA and some store discount then. By the way, CHA is the prime requisite for Sorcerers, no? (Yes, I know that it actually doesn't have any effect) So giving her a CHA lesser than let's say 14 or 15 makes no sense (almost every NPC has his/her prime class stat as higher as possible in Vanilla).

-Again, and with the difficult battles ahead I don't think that much people, or well, let's just talk about me, will put her in front of a bunch of golems to try and hit them with the staff. I see Aerie more suitable to destroy a Golem with those staves. As a Cleric/Mage she will level up at a lesser rate than Imoen but will end with better THAC0, and as some people has told they could use any Strengh enhancing spell (from the Cleric pool if the Mage one is buggy). Giving her that high STR puts her totally away from Character and is kind of forcing players to give her a staff and sending her to fight in melee. And talking a little more about Aerie, she already have a WIS of 16, more suitable for Wish.

I again ask you to leave her as similar as her original self as possible and then let us decide the right tactics to use with her as a Sorcerer. In my opinion, using her as a buffer/debuffer and a little as a Golem disabler with VT and the new spells is more than enough, no?

I must clarify that even if my post/writting/tone may seem hostile it is nothing of the sort. I like these forums very much. I support IA as one of the most exciting mods, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything, no? Well Sikret, you have the last word, of course, and we will accept it.

Cheers!

@Raven & Sikret.
I knew that she would only change in spellhold, but I guess from my post it doesn't seem like I did. I was actually just thinking out loud the summary of things to pass. I do that sometimes... I shouldn't, lol.



I think the road from thief-> thief/mage -> sorceress seems okay if you take into account the transfer between the second to the third and somewhat justify it through banter. That would even justify that she has some wizard spells known in Irenicus Dungeon because she's just "learning". And in the end when you've come to rescue her, she will have figured out (with some torture help from Irenicus) that she doesn't have to write spells in a book (wizard), but has the powers to know them by heart (sorceress). Wisdom gained so to speak, so a justified stat-change as well (and a very mild decrease in intelligence or charisma if you want.. charisma because she's more doomlike, intelligence... nothing comes to mind). You can also add into the banter that she's found a better way to play tricks on people and has given up on thieving. And if Imoen regains her soulfire when you defeat Bodhi, you might even add in some bonus for her as well (and maybe a piece lost when you let her give some essence to Sarevok).
I think that if you talk people through the profession change like that with some very nicely written banter, a lot more people could agree that yes, Imoen as a sorceress... that does seem to make sense in the end.


A solid change from thief -> thief/mage -> sorceress is well... storywise not strong at all, but it CAN be acceptible. You can imagine to start from a clean slate.... I mean, you can also choose to deny the familiarity of Minsc, Jaheira, Edwin (, Drizzt) and even Imoen herself in their starting banters, so from that point of view you don't even know what profession she used to be. I do not think that many people play it like that though and an immediate negation of her old thiefy-self would be much more of a shock than the scenario above (which was the original plan anyway).




About the Strength/melee thing. There are many options to increase her strength and I use these options quite often in-game.
- A girdle
- Strength scroll, Tenser's Transformation
- A Priest buffs her
- Normal Strength Potion (or is that removed too).

Furthermore, I think the times people would let Imoen sorceress spellspammer of Atkathla see hand-to-hand combat is still going to be nigh-zero. There are only few reasons why and when Imoen will see hand-to-hand combat that I can truly think of.
1. The party gets surprised from behind (following she will be buffed or even hidden, then possibly melee).
2. The player has prebuffed her a lot which is needed regardless of 17 strength.
3. She sneaks in Vampiric Touch a foe when that foe is already engaged with a true fighter from the party (or a summon). May need a buff or a safe contingency at least (though people have that most of the time).

I think I will probably fool around with her abilities anyway and let her go melee a few times, but I will probably buff her a lot and a strength buff is just one more buff, so that's no problem. I don't think she needs the big strength bonus even if she were a child of Bhaal, since there are already other options to increase her strength. You could give her a few points to say 11 or 12 if you like, just for Bhaal-child aestetics but that's not truly needed. There are surely Bhaalspawn that were born to a frail mother and thus their children are more frail as well.
Furthermore, she already gets the Fracture Golem spell (or other name) which if I understood doesn't need to be cast from touch range, so she can still help tackle golems quite well. If one Protagonist is a mage she will probably never even lift that golemsmasher staff, but if a player wants her to use it s/he'll probably be buffing her anyway with gear or spells.

I think the Wisdom increase is more justified, since there are no wisdom buffing potions anymore and you can learn something from the torturing/awakening, and I agree with Magnus that a low Charisma for a sorceress doesn't make much sense, even if it doesn't do anything for the spells in-game.


Just some thoughts.

Just some quick replies:

@Magnus:

1- Aerie can't use the Golem Slayer staff. It's not usable by multi-class mages.

2- Your tone didn't sound hostile to me, my friend. Feel free to express your opinion anytime you disagree with me in any case.

@Iroumen:

1- I don't know why you are still talking about "justifications" through "banters". As I mentioned in my last post, Imoen will have the new class and those new stats from the start of the game. So, there will be no change in her class and stats in spellhold and there will be no need to add banters to justify anything.

2- All strength boosting methods you mentioned (except the girdle) are dispellable and unstable. And the girdle may be better to be given to another party member.

One other point:

One of my reasons to change Imoen a sorcerer is to remove the temptation of making multi-player custom sorcerer. If Imoen changes to an incompetent sorceress, I (for one) will still prefer to make a custom multi-player sorcerer and leave Imoen out of the party. That's why I'm trying to make her an efficient sorceress.

Okay, that's all fair enough. I'm looking forward to seeing the changes implemented eitehr way .

Only in D&D 3.0 and 3.5, afair. AD&D on which BG is based doesn't even have a sorcerer class, iirc.

Well... what's left? Ah right. I agree with Sikret: if Imoen is going to be a sorcerer in IA she should be an efficient one.

To turn bright nice Imoen into a grunt with the heavy stick sounds monstruous.

@Sikret: Ok! So I will not fear to awake your fury. Ha, ha. I haven't played through IA enough to actually forge something so I didn't knew that Aerie couldn't use that staff. I even didn't read the new items to "keep the surprise". I will not continue arguing because as I see you have as many followers as detractors in the "Imoen issue". My opinion is as you know. Have you decided yet?

I have to agree with this. I don't expect my opinion to matter, but to me, BG2 is as much about role-playing as it is about tactical power-gaming. I think IA balances those aspects quite well in it's current state. I do, however, fear that turning the witty and charming Imoen into a staff-wielding Wish-machine will damage that balance.

From my point of view, making it an optional component sounds like a good idea. The pure power-gamer could still get their Strength- and Wisdom-heavy Sorcerer, while the roleplayers could choose the good old Imoen. But as far as I've understood, Sikret is reluctant towards optional components in his mod... so it may not be an ideal solution after all.

Nobody is saying you have to use Imoen that way. If you don't like the Wish spell, then you don't have to have Imoen learn it. And many players I'm sure will never have Imoen use a quarterstaff in combat at all. I think Sikret wants the option to be there in case anyone does want to make use of it.

I know she won't be forced to cast Wish and wield a staff I was addressing the changes in her stats (i.e. lower int/cha for higher wis/str).

And you can always change her back in your own game, or tweak Nalia in your own game. It doesn't matter in the end, does it?

If you think that tweaking Nalia will solve the issue, you haven't taken the point... I tried to see the situation from a role-playing point of view, in which case it won't make much sense to have a completely changed Imoen emerge from Irenicus' dungeoen; much stronger and wiser, but equally dumber and less charismatic. And she has completely forgotten her thieving skills... it makes perfect sense to a powergamer, but not to a roleplayer. In my opinion, both of these factions should be heard before a final decision is made, but , well... that's just my opinion.

Sure, Imoen can easily be ShadowKeepered into either of these incarnations no matter what solution Sikret chooses. But this debate regards what the "official" solution should be.

I can't find it in this thread, what are the final latest "updated" stats of Imoen? (Of course Sikret might have changed on it meanwhile.)

Imoen Vanilla BG2:
Strength: 9
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 17
Wisdom: 11
Charisma: 16


Last I understood Sikret wanted to give Imoen 17 strength, 18 wisdom and mentioned a charisma decrease to 9 and an intelligence decrease (to unknown value):
Logically I can derive the following result:

Imoen IA Current thought:
Strength: 17
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 9
Wisdom: 18
Charisma: 9

But! Sikret also got the idea (I think from Magnus) that as a Child of Bhaal she could get some minor bonuses over her original total statvalue (87 -> unknown value)


PS: Me as well as others have made similar roleplaying suggestions to Sikret in this thread. Read a page earlier. I think in the end it's Sikret's decision so I will welcome everything he does. But it doesn't mean that we cannot criticise it and give alternate suggestions.

An idea from me? Whoah, I'm actually doing something useful! He, he, just kidding.