@Critto
Casting Ruby Ray spell from a scroll on an invisible target is possible only because of a bug in the vanilla game. This is fixed and blocked in v6. Don't do that as long as you are playing v5. According to your report, you (probably unintentionally) did it with the Pirate Coordinator.
Full Version: Critto's v5 journal
QUOTE
Casting Ruby Ray spell from a scroll on an invisible target is possible only because of a bug in the vanilla game. This is fixed and blocked in v6. Don't do that as long as you are playing v5. According to your report, you (probably unintentionally) did it with the Pirate Coordinator.
Unintentionally, indeed. Haven't thought at the time that such action could be illogical (as I understand, it would be impossible to perform the same trick with RR from memory?).
Well, the whole scenario felt wrong somehow anyway. Even with the loss of two characters, Coordinator has fallen quicker than I expected (due to the scroll bug, apparently).
QUOTE(critto @ Apr 6 2009, 03:00 PM) 
QUOTE
Casting Ruby Ray spell from a scroll on an invisible target is possible only because of a bug in the vanilla game. This is fixed and blocked in v6. Don't do that as long as you are playing v5. According to your report, you (probably unintentionally) did it with the Pirate Coordinator.
Unintentionally, indeed. Haven't thought at the time that such action could be illogical (as I understand, it would be impossible to perform the same trick with RR from memory?).
Yes, that's right, and it's because, even though the game shows Improved Invisible characters as translucent/partially visible when they have taken some offensive action (so they can be the target of physical attacks), they are still actually supposed to be invisible to your characters. So they should not be targetable with single-target spells whether cast from memory or from scrolls.
Unfortunately the game does allow you to target such characters with single-target spells cast from scrolls, which means players probably do this not even thinking that really it should not be possible (since misleadingly the enemy is visible to the player).
Well, I think this little experiment is over. I've been playing with my current party, and I find it a bit ineffective for IA. Mostly, because of three things (two of which were pointed out by Kerkes):
1. The effectiveness of swashbuckler drops dramatically during the course of the game. She was doing nothing, basically, in Underdark, except maybe for an occasional dispel of enemies' illusions or a fight with the sidekick goons. I figure she won't become more effective later on without fighters' HLAs. I guess, we'll have to wait for IA6, where swashbucklers will be improved by Sikret.
2. Lack of pure cleric. r/c is a really good tank, but having a 12-13 level cleric in Underdark doesn't really help. Some fights I find nearly undoable (I'll write an example a bit later).
3. Not enough magical firepower. f/m progresses in levels very slowly, and having a single sorc is not enough to handle all the magical stuff.
To summarize, this party is not as effective as I first considered. I am playing the Underdark part, and some battles are basically undoable for me. For example, I am stuck right now with Noble Djinni (Deirex' treasure cave). He's too tough to kill in melee (has anyone actually accomplished such a thing?), and I do not have enough magical power to kill him before he regenerates or finishes off my fighters (who might've hold on if only I had pure cleric with Greater Restoration on board). I won't even mention the battle with the Demon Knights in Demogorgon temple...
I guess, maybe I just not skilled enough to play with that kind of party yet, but well, as Sikret has written in IA's readme, one should draw a learning curve for himself. I find the current game a little too tough for my liking, which kind of takes out the fun, and what's the point of playing the game without having fun? So I'll drop this party for now and maybe start another one. Well, anyway, sorry if someone liked the idea of me writing the report, since, obviously, I won't be publishing it now. Not for that party, at least.
1. The effectiveness of swashbuckler drops dramatically during the course of the game. She was doing nothing, basically, in Underdark, except maybe for an occasional dispel of enemies' illusions or a fight with the sidekick goons. I figure she won't become more effective later on without fighters' HLAs. I guess, we'll have to wait for IA6, where swashbucklers will be improved by Sikret.
2. Lack of pure cleric. r/c is a really good tank, but having a 12-13 level cleric in Underdark doesn't really help. Some fights I find nearly undoable (I'll write an example a bit later).
3. Not enough magical firepower. f/m progresses in levels very slowly, and having a single sorc is not enough to handle all the magical stuff.
To summarize, this party is not as effective as I first considered. I am playing the Underdark part, and some battles are basically undoable for me. For example, I am stuck right now with Noble Djinni (Deirex' treasure cave). He's too tough to kill in melee (has anyone actually accomplished such a thing?), and I do not have enough magical power to kill him before he regenerates or finishes off my fighters (who might've hold on if only I had pure cleric with Greater Restoration on board). I won't even mention the battle with the Demon Knights in Demogorgon temple...
I guess, maybe I just not skilled enough to play with that kind of party yet, but well, as Sikret has written in IA's readme, one should draw a learning curve for himself. I find the current game a little too tough for my liking, which kind of takes out the fun, and what's the point of playing the game without having fun? So I'll drop this party for now and maybe start another one. Well, anyway, sorry if someone liked the idea of me writing the report, since, obviously, I won't be publishing it now. Not for that party, at least.
QUOTE(critto @ Apr 22 2009, 07:58 PM)
To summarize, this party is not as effective as I first considered. I am playing the Underdark part, and some battles are basically undoable for me. For example, I am stuck right now with Noble Djinni (Deirex' treasure cave). He's too tough to kill in melee (has anyone actually accomplished such a thing?)
Sure, it's very possible.
Describe the problems in the battle (i.e. what exactly is killing you) if you want and I will try to give some advice. Even if you don't continue with this party, maybe it'll help for the future.
SPOILER!
Good fighters. Two or three, imp. hasted and protected form fire. Always works. :]
2 Raven, matti:
Thanks for your input. I did try melee fight with Djinni, but here's a few problems I have encountered:
SPOILER!
Thanks for your input. I did try melee fight with Djinni, but here's a few problems I have encountered:
SPOILER!
I attack the Djinni with two my best warriors (cavalier prot and Minsc). I equip them with items, which grant protection from fire, and buff with the same spell and Improved Haste, of course. As Djinni appears they both attack him, while sorc and f/m dispel his protections with Ruby Rays and Breach (funny thing is, f/m doesn't have access to 7th level spells yet, so he casts the spell from the very same RR scroll located in that cave). At first, my fighters are beating Djinni quite effectively. But this is where the problems begin. More precisely:
1. He lowers fire resistance, and I don't have any means to increase it once again, since I don't have any potions of fire resistance.
2. As the fire resistance drops, they start to take damage from the fire shield. The funny thing is, even when they hit Djinni, he doesn't take any damage, I get only "successful hit roll" and "damage from fire shield taken" messages in my log. I thought it was some kind of magical protection, but it doesn't make any sense. If it was stoneskin, it should be gone quite fast with that amount of hits, if it's PfMW, I should get "weapon ineffective" messages, which I don't. Breaching the Djinni also doesn't seem to work. Maybe I missed something in message log, but I examined it pretty thoroughly.
3. Djinni hits my fighters quite hard (with their AC being around -10). And I don't have Greater Restoration to heal them both quickly. And they don't have any Hardiness yet, being one or two levels away from HLAs.
1. He lowers fire resistance, and I don't have any means to increase it once again, since I don't have any potions of fire resistance.
2. As the fire resistance drops, they start to take damage from the fire shield. The funny thing is, even when they hit Djinni, he doesn't take any damage, I get only "successful hit roll" and "damage from fire shield taken" messages in my log. I thought it was some kind of magical protection, but it doesn't make any sense. If it was stoneskin, it should be gone quite fast with that amount of hits, if it's PfMW, I should get "weapon ineffective" messages, which I don't. Breaching the Djinni also doesn't seem to work. Maybe I missed something in message log, but I examined it pretty thoroughly.
3. Djinni hits my fighters quite hard (with their AC being around -10). And I don't have Greater Restoration to heal them both quickly. And they don't have any Hardiness yet, being one or two levels away from HLAs.
Yeah, that's why fighters and mages (single-class) shines in IA. Your party suffers rather greatly in the "butt-kicking for goodness" department - not enough good fighters, not to mention that taking only one mage in the party was a very risky and actually brave decision. :]
SPOILER!
SPOILER!
Buff your entire party to the wazoo, let your fighters drink strength potions, equip them with potions of resurgence and potions of speed, latter are very important, let your fighters quaff it the next milisecond imp. haste wear off, coz your mages are too low level to refresh imp. haste I assume, cast all offensive divine spells and put your r/c in the fight. Noble Djinni is powerful but he is alone (he's sidekick is a wuss) and it's really important to make all your fighters beat on him mercilessly and without interruption. Attack with swashbuckler and r/c first, making them priority target (even sacrifice them, that is) for he's counter-attacks and you'll finally break him.
QUOTE(critto @ Apr 23 2009, 08:54 AM)
2 Raven, matti:
Thanks for your input. I did try melee fight with Djinni, but here's a few problems I have encountered:
SPOILER!
Thanks for your input. I did try melee fight with Djinni, but here's a few problems I have encountered:
SPOILER!
I attack the Djinni with two my best warriors (cavalier prot and Minsc). I equip them with items, which grant protection from fire, and buff with the same spell and Improved Haste, of course. As Djinni appears they both attack him, while sorc and f/m dispel his protections with Ruby Rays and Breach (funny thing is, f/m doesn't have access to 7th level spells yet, so he casts the spell from the very same RR scroll located in that cave). At first, my fighters are beating Djinni quite effectively. But this is where the problems begin. More precisely:
1. He lowers fire resistance, and I don't have any means to increase it once again, since I don't have any potions of fire resistance.
2. As the fire resistance drops, they start to take damage from the fire shield. The funny thing is, even when they hit Djinni, he doesn't take any damage, I get only "successful hit roll" and "damage from fire shield taken" messages in my log. I thought it was some kind of magical protection, but it doesn't make any sense. If it was stoneskin, it should be gone quite fast with that amount of hits, if it's PfMW, I should get "weapon ineffective" messages, which I don't. Breaching the Djinni also doesn't seem to work. Maybe I missed something in message log, but I examined it pretty thoroughly.
3. Djinni hits my fighters quite hard (with their AC being around -10). And I don't have Greater Restoration to heal them both quickly. And they don't have any Hardiness yet, being one or two levels away from HLAs.
1. He lowers fire resistance, and I don't have any means to increase it once again, since I don't have any potions of fire resistance.
2. As the fire resistance drops, they start to take damage from the fire shield. The funny thing is, even when they hit Djinni, he doesn't take any damage, I get only "successful hit roll" and "damage from fire shield taken" messages in my log. I thought it was some kind of magical protection, but it doesn't make any sense. If it was stoneskin, it should be gone quite fast with that amount of hits, if it's PfMW, I should get "weapon ineffective" messages, which I don't. Breaching the Djinni also doesn't seem to work. Maybe I missed something in message log, but I examined it pretty thoroughly.
3. Djinni hits my fighters quite hard (with their AC being around -10). And I don't have Greater Restoration to heal them both quickly. And they don't have any Hardiness yet, being one or two levels away from HLAs.
OK here is some info/tips, hopefully some of it will be useful:
SPOILER!
The Noble Efreet is immune to Breach, as you suggested. He isn't immune to normal weapons though, so you can still hit him while he is using PfMW. I imagine it was stoneskin that was preventing you seeing any damage appearing in the log box.
I took a look at your party and I can understand why you could be having trouble. I agree that your main problem is probably the lack of 7th level divine spells (for Regeneration or Greater Restoration). Additionally your multiclass characters will probably have some difficulty scoring hits consistently.
Despite what I said about it being possible to win with fighters/melee, I think it's better you use a combined arms approach and make sure your magic users contribute to damage-dealing as well. The Efreet does not have very high Magic Resistance (a couple of Lower Resistances and it'll be gone), nor does it have good resistances to elements other than fire. Because your fighters will take more damage from the Fire Shield the longer they have to attack you should concentrate your offensive spells on the Efreet at the same time. Throw a Doom and Greater Malison then pretty much any non-fire attack spells (ADHW if you have it, Chain Lightning, Melf's Acid Arrow, Magic Missile etc.).
As far as the Efreet's damage-dealing goes, iirc its main offensive powers besides its own attacks and the Fire Shield are Fireball and Incendiary Cloud. Both of these spells can be avoided even without fire resistance, using Zone of Sweet Air to clear Incendiary Cloud and using the Limited Wish option 'I wish to make my party invulnerable', which gives your characters Minor Globes of Invulnerability for a short time, to block Fireball.
I took a look at your party and I can understand why you could be having trouble. I agree that your main problem is probably the lack of 7th level divine spells (for Regeneration or Greater Restoration). Additionally your multiclass characters will probably have some difficulty scoring hits consistently.
Despite what I said about it being possible to win with fighters/melee, I think it's better you use a combined arms approach and make sure your magic users contribute to damage-dealing as well. The Efreet does not have very high Magic Resistance (a couple of Lower Resistances and it'll be gone), nor does it have good resistances to elements other than fire. Because your fighters will take more damage from the Fire Shield the longer they have to attack you should concentrate your offensive spells on the Efreet at the same time. Throw a Doom and Greater Malison then pretty much any non-fire attack spells (ADHW if you have it, Chain Lightning, Melf's Acid Arrow, Magic Missile etc.).
As far as the Efreet's damage-dealing goes, iirc its main offensive powers besides its own attacks and the Fire Shield are Fireball and Incendiary Cloud. Both of these spells can be avoided even without fire resistance, using Zone of Sweet Air to clear Incendiary Cloud and using the Limited Wish option 'I wish to make my party invulnerable', which gives your characters Minor Globes of Invulnerability for a short time, to block Fireball.
2 matti:
Well, actually, my sorc has enough experience to be able to refresh IH, cast ADHWs and so on It's just my fighters usually were killed before their IH got dispelled. As for sacrifices, it is not really my thing, but I will consider that as an option Still, summons would probably serve better as a meatshields, unless Djinni knows Death spell (of which I am not sure).
2 Raven:
It is true, indeed. Well, it's more the lack of divine spells. I am quite okay with the multiclasses not being big damage dealers, since it's not their main purpose.
Well, I did try a combined method too, but the same problems were standing on my path to victory in this battle. But I will give this battle another shot, for sure. I never imagined this battle to be so tough, actually. In my previous run I won it quite fast using magic only, but I had three mages firing spells at Djinni.
Thanks for the hints, I will try them later on, when I have some free time.
Well, actually, my sorc has enough experience to be able to refresh IH, cast ADHWs and so on
It's just my fighters usually were killed before their IH got dispelled. As for sacrifices, it is not really my thing, but I will consider that as an option Still, summons would probably serve better as a meatshields, unless Djinni knows Death spell (of which I am not sure).2 Raven:
QUOTE
SPOILER!
I took a look at your party and I can understand why you could be having trouble. I agree that your main problem is probably the lack of 7th level divine spells (for Regeneration or Greater Restoration). Additionally your multiclass characters will probably have some difficulty scoring hits consistently.
It is true, indeed. Well, it's more the lack of divine spells. I am quite okay with the multiclasses not being big damage dealers, since it's not their main purpose.
QUOTE
SPOILER!
Despite what I said about it being possible to win with fighters/melee, I think it's better you use a combined arms approach and make sure your magic users contribute to damage-dealing as well. The Efreet does not have very high Magic Resistance (a couple of Lower Resistances and it'll be gone), nor does it have good resistances to elements other than fire. Because your fighters will take more damage from the Fire Shield the longer they have to attack you should concentrate your offensive spells on the Efreet at the same time. Throw a Doom and Greater Malison then pretty much any non-fire attack spells (ADHW if you have it, Chain Lightning, Melf's Acid Arrow, Magic Missile etc.).
Well, I did try a combined method too, but the same problems were standing on my path to victory in this battle. But I will give this battle another shot, for sure. I never imagined this battle to be so tough, actually. In my previous run I won it quite fast using magic only, but I had three mages firing spells at Djinni.
Thanks for the hints, I will try them later on, when I have some free time.
A slight suggestion to your Noble Genie problem:
SPOILER!
SPOILER!
1)have any trigger/sequencer/minor seq scrolls/spells? Go get some if not. Set up - sorc trigger 3xChain lightning (if you have it, if not stock up Acid Arrows or Lightning bolts), figh/mag trigger 3x lower resistance, sequencers and minor triggers both filled with Melfs Acid. All 2nd lvl slots Acid, 1st level Chromatic orb. He shows up, Ruby Ray, trigger 3x Lower resistance, Malison, Doom, blast away with acid+lightning...works every time...I believe he uses prot magic energy so magic missile and ADHW are a no-no. Acid/lightning kills him very fast. Don't attack him melee, it does more harm than good.
QUOTE(Kerkes @ Apr 25 2009, 10:48 AM)
A slight suggestion to your Noble Genie problem:
SPOILER!
SPOILER!
1)have any trigger/sequencer/minor seq scrolls/spells? Go get some if not. Set up - sorc trigger 3xChain lightning (if you have it, if not stock up Acid Arrows or Lightning bolts), figh/mag trigger 3x lower resistance, sequencers and minor triggers both filled with Melfs Acid. All 2nd lvl slots Acid, 1st level Chromatic orb. He shows up, Ruby Ray, trigger 3x Lower resistance, Malison, Doom, blast away with acid+lightning...works every time...I believe he uses prot magic energy so magic missile and ADHW are a no-no. Acid/lightning kills him very fast. Don't attack him melee, it does more harm than good.
Yes, you're right, I had forgotten about the PfME (which is effectively unremovable).
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