Swashbucklers will no longer have access to "Use Any Item" HLA. Instead, I decided to add other HLA's for them. So far, four HLA's are added:

They already had access to one warrior HLA; so, I decided to add three more (though the total numbers of these new HLA's they can pick are fewer than the numbers a warrior can pick):

- Hardiness
- Critical Strike
- Resist Magic

I also added one new HLA:

- Acrobatic Combat

Description:

By using this ability, a high level swashbuckler can improve his agility and fighting expertise (in both defense and attack) to an extraordinary level. Acrobatic Combat grants +6 bonus to AC and +3 bonus to THAC0 for 5 rounds.

Suggestions for more new HLA's are welcome.*

Thanks.

* Ideas for new HLA's should be original (not copied or taken from other mods).

I have a somewhat different suggestion - they can "specialize" in weapon proficiencies. However, they get no extra atteck for it, only dmg and THAC0 bonus which I find a bit lame. How about making it same like fighters have? They still won't be that great, even with imp.haste they get 4 attacks max, which isn't a lot.

In response to Kerkes' post: perhaps a HLA that grants the Swashbuckler 1 extra attack per round for 10 rounds? Too bad they don't have UAI anymore! The Scarlet Ninjato would have made a good off-hand weapon.

Hmm the Acrobatic Combat Feat looks rather interesting. I can already picture using it with Whirlwind attack to offset the THAC0 disadvantage, or using it with Greater Evasion for low AC.

I'm not a big fan of adding bonus to "number of attacks per round" to items and spells; it will lead to weird behavior in conjunction with WhirlWind attack and will eventually drop the number of attacks to a very low number. It's a known and unfixable bug of the vanilla game when calculating number of attacks. When the number of attacks are supposed to surpass 10, it becomes buggy.

As a related point, one of the main drawbacks of swashbucklers is probably their low HP. Their THAC0 is not their main problem in my opinion (they have THAC0 bonuses) and now with the new Acrobatic Combat HLA, the THAC0 doesn't really need any further boost. Perhaps, a new HLA which temporarily adds to their HP is not a bad idea; or alternatively, I can add a new item upgrade for the Improved Cutthroat combined with a few potions of Fortitude and some such things to forge a new weapon for swashbucklers which adds bonus to HP.

Or do you suggest that we postpone making the decision to after testing swashbucklers with their new HLAs in practice and see whether they really need any further bonuses?

Woops, I wasn't clear on this, but I actually meant the +4 THAC0 penalty from activating Whirlwind Attack, thus offsetting their lack of the GWW HLA.




I agree that the low HP may be an issue. Actually, Thieves have a HLA adding 20 bonus hit-points already (Avoid Death). I'm not sure which option would be the best... adding a new HLA which is stackable with Avoid Death; adding a HLA which is non-stackable; or replace Avoid Death with the new HLA.



I think that the final decision can come after testing swashbucklers' new HLAs in practice, but I wouldn't mind seeing more unique suggestions in this thread such that they can possibly be tested as well in the upcoming testing round.

Most of the time I used my Swashbuckler with Mirror Image and Stoneskin scrolls in addition to the Evade and Avoid Death HLAs to keep him alive. SometimesI also added Tensers Transformation and Protection from Magic Weapons Scrolls. Those were plenty for Vanilla and some other tactics mods.

Seeing you added Hardiness, Resist Magic and Acrobatic Combat to his abilities, I think Swashbucklers will have enough defense to offset the loss of scroll usage and item unrestriction (by removing Use Any Item).
I would probably test these HLAs first.



Btw, don't Swashbucklers get the Alchemy ability to create potions? There's a good strength potion that they can construct. Do you think it will be a bit too good for a combination with Critical Strike?

Dance of Death

40% chance for insta-kill target (no save)

AC decreased by 10

Duration - 5 rounds

@ Matti

Woooohoooooooo....

I agree that giving them an extra attack will certainly lead to trouble such as attacking with 2 attacks per round while in WW attack. But from the description here, I get a feeling they're now much more in line with fighter classes.
From my previous IA experiences, having an AC of -25 will do little good vs. a lot of enemies.
"hardiness" is a welcome choice, as always.
What I think (note "I") is that they'll still come out short of a f/t multiclass, just as they did in IA5.
The best defence is not the AC or "Hardiness", it's the ability to hurt enemies fast enough so they can't hurt you faster.
It works for me at least, in so many fights (say Planar Warden, Yaga Sura etc)
Having 7 attacks with imp.haste beats having 4 attacks with imp.haste and -25 AC in both of these fights, even more so for Yaga.
If you use WW attack, you cannot drink potions in that round nor do anything else but attack. You'll also want quite a few "hardiness" HLA's anyway.
Not to mention that a f/t can backstabb, which a swash cannot. Sure, swash will do bigger damage. But only if whirlwinding, since a f/t will have higher number of attacks.

Imho if Swashie can attack only 1 per hands, which means 4 attacks with Haste or even with Improved Haste, I always would chose a Swashie 10 > Fighter dual instead of single class Swashie. And with single class Swashie GWW always will be better than Crit. Strike, especially if his TAHCO will be god with new HLA.

@kerkes

AC is not capped at -25.

For a character who dual-wields the best AC shown on his character sheet is -26 and for a character who uses shields the best AC shown on his character sheet is -24 (so, I even don't see whence the number -25 has come). But this doesn't mean that the character's effective AC can't be better than those numbers. They are just the best numbers you can read in the character's sheet (even when the character's actual AC is better than those numbers).

For example, if your swashbuckler has an AC of -23 before using the Acrobatic Combat HLA, after using the HLA the AC will indeed change to -29, even though the number you will see in the character sheet won't be better than -26.

I remmeber that Raven's tests (last year) confirmed this theory. You can also test it and report back the result to us. It's always nice to test again and be sure.

Actually what I remember is that the value displayed on your character's sheet is your base AC against all weapons, which *is* capped at -26 (or -25 for classes who can only put 1* on Single Weapon Style, -24 for singles class mages/sorcerers).

This can be made lower by up to another 20 points (to a final limit of -46) by the weapon type-specific modifiers which are written in the character record. It's not quite possible to get that extra 20 against all weapon types, though (just because of which bonuses various items happen to grant in the game).

So I think if you have a base AC of (say) -21 on your character sheet, and use this Acrobatic Combat HLA, your AC will be displayed as -24 and will actually be -24, not -27.

But my memory of this is somewhat hazy so like Sikret says it'd be good if someone could test it.

I couldn't yet find an appropriate name but how about this;

-Every attack is a critical hit, and does maximum damage (as Kai ability)
-Damage is applied everyone around the swashbuckler
-6 point AC penalty
-Duration: 1 or 2 rounds (thieves already get less attacks so 2 may be better)

It's like swashbuckler drops his/her defences and hits everyone around while rotating around himself/herself. Damage may include or exclude allies but if it excludes allies more penalties can be considered (-x to saves etc.) or vice cersa.

What?

Without UAI swashbuckler is pretty useless imo. He's like a crippled fighter with only better saves, but with all this rings +3, +4 etc. it doesn't matter. He needs a serious compensation for this (lack of UAI). And if you multiple his attacks - here comes a bug, so I choose this ...eerr.. original option: insta-kill.

25% chance, 2 rounds will be better?




Excellent idea, imo.

@ Sikret

Yes, I agree with AC thing you wrote. Dunno where I got -25 , I never got up to that number (-19, -20 perhaps with Berskerkers, without Shield of any kind, 2-handed wpns). But enemies also attack incredibly quickly (say Granlords, Elite Fire Giants), and are bound to hit you regardless, for massive damage. Another thing is the Critical Strike HLA, which can be used with imp.haste, but not with WW.
Swashs also take a while to get to really low AC, and they won't be able to use Full Plate without UAI.
Their bonuses max out at +8 I believe, no? With WW, bonus to hit is actually +4, damage is decreased by 4, which is not that much "bonus" anymore, especially since you'll be using WW before lvl40.
As for decreasing your AC, I believe there are some potions which give -10 to AC vs.blunt, there are ways to decrease it against missiles. Don't know about slashing but that Golden Girdle.
Anyway, am looking forward to see how much useful will swashs be, it's really been a while since I last played one (never in IA actually).

@Matti

perhaps this ability would go better with asassins..

@Apsis

This is like a "kamikaze strike"!!!

I envision a replacement ability that makes Swashbucklers less like thieves and more like fighters as they get more experienced.

Swashbucklers are the 'fighters among thieves', supposedly the most martial of that profession. It would stand to reason that at higher levels their physical training and exceptional healthy physique would pay off big in some fashion.

UAI was a permanent, take-it-one-time-and-use-it-forever benefit. This replacement ability ought to be equally as useful, and also a permanent benefit.

Swashies have great offensive and defensive class abilities, but in IA we know that the powerful opponents are going to hit you no matter what...so that nice AC benefit is lessened if you're up on front-line combat. They can't backstab, so what exactly is a Swashbuckler's role in combat? Simple: It's fighting. They need to become better fighters at high level.

I'm working off the cuff here - If you guys like it, then take the idea and run with it - but how about:

===========

Improved Physique (Swashbuckler HLA, can be selected only once)

The Swashbuckler gains the following permanently:

+2 to hit points per level
Immunity to Backstab
+2 to saves vs. Poison and Breath Weapon
an extra 1/2 attack per round


My rationale with the hit point bonus is to give Swashbucklers a boost towards being "agile fighters" at higher levels. A hit point bonus is needed simply because Armor Class alone isn't enough to keep a Swashbuckler alive. Even with a +2 per level, they're still something on the order of at least 4 hit points per level behind true fighters. They gain to-hit and damage bonuses, but they'll never have the equivalent number of attacks per round that fighters have, either. They can't wear as heavy armor, so SOMETHING has to make the Swashbuckler better in stand-up combat.

Backstab immunity is a defense against thieves themselves...who better to know how thieves ply their trade than another thief? This would be from training and experience, not a primeval 'sixth sense' like Barbarians have.

The save bonuses are to reflect two things: for Poison, it's a resistance to something commonly seen in the 'thieving world', so it stands to reason they'd gain a resistance sooner or later (if not outright immunity)...and breath weapon attack saves typically bring to mind some sort of evasive manuevers - right up the alley of a Swashbuckler.

Finally there's the 1/2 attack per round. This is just to keep them from being completely snubbed as a class due to having too few of the all-important attacks-per-round so desperately needed and desired at high levels. It is again something of a 'half-fighter' measure.

@geh4th:

I like your idea and I agree with your reasoning. However, I'm not sure if the extra 1/2 attack per round would lead to coding problems as the others have mentioned above.


Here's another HLA suggestion: (based on the idea that perhaps swashbucklers are more graceful than normal thieves)

Greater Evasion (can be picked once only)
(1) -8 to AC (BUT instead of the base AC being modified, the -8 goes to the specific AC modifiers instead, thus allowing the effective AC to go below -26... I think)
(2) +5 to all saves
(3) +20% physical resistances (since swashbucklers don't have UAI, I don't think it would lead to 100% or more physical resistances without the barbarian potion)
(4) Lasts 5 rounds
(5) At end of 5 rounds, swashbuckler gets fatigued just like clerics do after casting Greater Restoration, due to the strain on the body from this supreme evasive maneuver.

I understand that Sikret is, as he said above, "not a big fan of adding attacks per round", but if I read correctly he also went on to say that this is buggy when going over 10 per round.

If I have the math right, adding a small number - even just 1/2 per round - might give the Swash some usefulness while not ever even approaching the 10 per round level. A vanilla Swashbuckler can't get more than 1 attack per round by profession; they can specialize in weapons but IIRC they don't get the extra attacks per round that warriors get. So a dual wielding Swashbuckler would never have more than 2.5 attacks per round, doubling to a maximum of 5 when improved hasted. There's no way to further increase it, is there?

I really feel that if a permanent ability is removed from the Swashbuckler...a very POWERFUL permanent ability...they should get something permanent in return. Or at least equally powerful.

My suggestion might work even if the extra 1/2 attack per round is ignored, but the idea was to permanently improve a HIGH LEVEL Swashbuckler's ability to stand up to bad guys in face to face combat. The signature of the class is being "hard to hit" and an "expert with weapons", which their class bonuses support, but does this AC bonus lose effectiveness at higher levels in an Improved Anvil environment? I've heard and seen that no matter how good your AC is, the strong bad guys WILL hit you.

The end result is that without more hit points, I think that a Swashbuckler is toast in combat without major compensation.


The question for each of us to ask ourselves is: what would make you WANT to have a pure Swashbuckler in the group? Most people want a thief, but only need modest thieving abilities in practice. The only Swashbuckler's I've generally heard about always dual-class to something else at level 10; nobody wants to "waste" a character slot on any form of pure thief, it seems. And of course as a dual, you don't get the Swash HLA's, making it a moot point for them.

Without something (like their HLA's) making people go "Oooohhh, COOL!" I don't see a pure Swashbuckler being a popular option. It'd have to be really good.

I've also heard this comment, but it's not true. An excellent AC will prove to be very beneficial and effective against the vast majority of enemies even in TOB. Sometimes, players merely think of some special enemies with excellent THACo's (such as the Ancient Dragon or Rakshasa Prince) and then make general conclusions which are not true. Enemies with such excellent THAC0's are very rare.

Yeah, it's certainly untrue to say that enemies like Skeleton Grandlords or IA golems will always hit - with the right buffs and equipment these enemies will be hitting under half the time. Remember that, as well as spells that improve AC, there are spells that affect the enemy to-hit rolls (e.g. Doom, Improved Invisibility, Protection from Evil). You can combine these with a low AC (plus weapon type-specific bonuses) to achieve an incredibly low effective AC of around -30. There aren't many enemies with a THAC0 or -20 or better.

Admittedly, I'm certainly not an expert at higher levels or late-game play. I was merely reporting the impression I get from reading others' reports. I didn't intentionally mean to spread an untrue sentiment, but in many cases the choice whether to play or not play a particular class of character is entirely based on common perception. That was the point I really wanted to make.

I've said my 2 cents worth on the issue...which might just have about that much value (i.e. nothing.) I'll defer to you more educated folks on the matter.

No problem. I know it for sure that you didn't mean to spread false information, geh4th.



Yes, similar false rumors had also been spread regardling the uselessness of mages in IA. Many naive players simply believed that rumor and even started to repeat it.

Jealousy rules in modding community. Some people deliberately forge false rumors about IA, some others (= mostly naive players), who don't know how to test those claims, simply believe what they read and even keep repeating them. After a while, the false belief turns to be a common belief shared by many people who do not know what they are talking about at all!

Here in IA's forum, we are present to clarify things and to nullify the effects of those rumors, but there are still plenty of such false statements about IA at other sites. An intelligent player should not allow false rumors to affect his mental state and sentiments.

Any time you hear some such rumors, you can ask me about their validity and credibility, because noone knows more about Improved Anvil than I do. Experienced IA testers are also very reliable sources of information. I believe that you, geh4th, will also become one of those experinced IA experts in the near future.

When I read comments (even negative or false comments), I can almost always correctly detect whether it is written with a good intention or with an ill one. Everything you write has always sounded to be of good intention to me. So, don't worry, I didn't misinterpret what you wrote, geh4th.

Thank you for your kind words, Sikret.

I do need to learn to base my own comments off my own experiences and not things I've picked up from others. A common lesson in life.

On to the experience...


George

It's true that Granlords won't always hit you, of course. But it only takes a few hits for a swash to go down, and they sure do attack quickly (not to forget you rarely fight only one, they come in groups!!!), critical hit never misses...we'll see. I still prefer doing max dmg in minimum time over relying on AC, potions etc.

I read some interesting info from the High lvl Campaigns book of 2nd edition, It has some high level abilities for rogues.

Italics are directly copied from the source. Then I used my own ideas to create HLAs out of them. Feel free to add your own ideas.


Improvised Attack: Rogues with this skill can use unorthodox and unexpected maneuvers to achieve special results in combat. The more unusual the maneuver, the better its chance for success.

A rogue can use this skill only once a day, but the character can learn the skill multiple times. For example, a rogue who learns this skill three times can make three improvised attacks each day. An improvised attack can have one of the following effects:Blind, Immobilize, Stun, Trip, Disarm, Kill.


So by using this HLA the Swashie can perform a very unexpected and flashy attack which can cause one of those random effects. The duration of the HLA must not be higher than two rounds, and its saving throws allowed should be with a hefty penalty. If it can stack with WW attack it may be powerful. The effects may be:blewn backwards (as if hit by Dragon Breath), drop uncouncious, stunned, blinded, or killed outright. Ofcourse, most IA enemies may be immune to such effects, so maybe an extra damage chance upon hit may not be too bad?

Shadow Flight: This ability is similar to the shadow travel skill, except that a successful hide in shadows roll allows the character to fly silently from shadow to shadow.
Like the shadow travel skill, the rogue must begin with a successful hide in shadows roll.

My idea:
When this HLA is used, the Swashie must make a Hide in Shadows roll, if succesful, he is improved invisible for the next 10 rounds, and if he is in trouble (health is reduced down to half) while this HLA is in effect, he instantly teleports (dimension door) right next to the strongest (highest HP) character in the party, via shadows, ending the effect.

This may be hard to code, but it gives a good defensive ability, an instant escape chance from rough situations, and a reason to invest Hide In Shadows for Swashie.

Inner Focus: Rogues with this skill can marshal their personal energies to provide a temporary bonus to their Dexterity, Intelligence, or Constitution scores; it is otherwise similar to the warrior skill of the same name.

Make it something like Draw Upon Holy Might, it may prove useful to boost ability scores to very high levels.

Adaptation: A character with this skill has a trained mind that quickly analyzes unusual or unfavorable environments and a finely tuned body that can compensate for physical impediments to fighting. Except where noted below, it is identical to the warrior skill of the same name.

Hmm this is impossible to directly to code for BG2, but:
When this HLA is in effect, the Swashie gains immunity to most things that impair his mind and/or body:slow, stun, hold, paralysis, charm, confusion, dominate effects etc for 10 rounds. This gives a good defensive ability to counter many nasty things enemies can hurl. Also maybe resistance to intense heat and cold, as they are enviromental and can be 'adapted'.

As for AC...
I tried this in vanilla game, and in vanilla Raven's first post is true. I don't know about Anvil6, but in vanilla the lowest AC is -26. I tried this with a swashbuckler, then cast prot evil, def harmony and used Greater Evasion HLA, (his base AC was already -26, therefore, all this added should have made it -36) and had Korgan (who is evil) attack him.
Mechanics were like this - Korgan, prior to buffs, hits on a roll of 17 and higher. After the buffs, he hits on the exactly same roll, as if Greater Evasion, Prot evil etc.didn't even exist. Only the "specific" weapon types AC applies after -26 AC.

@Silverstar

Thank you very much for the ideas and suggestions; I'll try to use some of them. Some of those ability 'names' are really cool; so, we can at least use the names with different and more suitable effects.



Yes, after having this tested again (Raven did test it again for one more time), the mechanism is exactly as Raven had reported before. Therefore, I changed the new HLA, Acrobatic Combat so that it applies the AC bonuses to each and every weapon type separately to make sure that it can (potentially) lower the AC to numbers better than -26 (although those numbers won't be shown in the character's sheet, they will practically affect the oppoenent's chance to hit).

Hmm that is interesting because I would have expected at least the Prot from Evil to be effective irrespective of how good the character's AC is (since it applies a penalty to the attacker's hit roll, nothing to do with AC). Greater Evasion and Defensive Harmony both give regular AC bonuses so they have no effect if you have are at your AC 'limit' (i.e. -24 without single-weapon style, -25 with one point in single-weapon, -26 with two).

Are you absolutely sure that the Protection from Evil made no difference? Was the 'plus' number for Korgan's attack roll the same with and without the PfEvil? By 'plus' number I mean the number the dialogue box shows is added to the actual d20 roll.

Sorry Sikret and Raven, you're right, Prot Evil does stack with AC (for as long as something Evil is attacking you). I tried it again, and prot evil stacks but nothing else does. Glad it's fixed in IA6.

Swashbuckler HLA suggestions:

1. Lightning Reflexes:
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per 4 levels
Natural rolls of 20 critically miss instead of hit. Doesn't affect rolls that would crit on 19,18 etc, only natural 20.

This would significantly reduce damage taken and also up utility of evasion if used in conjunction. However, enemy riskbreakers and grandlords will still be able to crit them in addition to regular hits. This would make armor class very important for Swashbucklers and actually increase the chances someone will actually equip a buckler.

2. Counter Attack:
Duration: Permanent
Each time an enemy critically misses against Swashbuckler (natural 1, or natural 20 with lightning reflexes activated), he attacks once

This gives it more non-GWW offensive capabilities. Makes up for the crappy attacks per round especially with possible shield equipped. Activation on 5%-10% of enemy attacks made on Swashbuckler doesnt seem like too much. Unless its tanking a ton of enemies, in which case you're screwed anyways due to regular hits or 18/19 roll crits. Players will probably want to dual wield until HLAs, and then switch to shield.

Just a note for HLAs...I've just cheched out a rather amazing mod called "Refinements". It changes HLA tables for every single kit in the game, and multiclasses also, in a very interesting manner (for example, Paladins and Rangers no longer get GWW wich is limited to only pure fighter, a ton of changes actually). I wonder if some of those could be used in Anvil too.

We do not copy material from other mods. Only original and new ideas will be accepted here to be used in IA.

Yeah, I know...just think it would be great if modders worked more together rather then like this. But then again, Acrobatic combat is already introduced by a mod, cannot remember it's name now but I have it, and it works pretty much like the one in Anvil

We didn't copy Acrobatic Combat from any other mod. Perhaps, it's just a similarity of names or a simple coincidence.

I know, it's a mod by Deratiseur (perhaps I spelled the name wrong, French anyway) and it's name is Acrobatic Attack, but it's practically the same. Then again, it's quite logical that swashes get this type of HLA.

With so many mods around, many of which using the same inspirations (such as P&P), you are bound to run into a few coincidental similaraties



The problem being that modders (and, actually, every small group of very creative people) never quite agree with eachother .

The solution is simple, lol. Sikret needs to rise to the top and become the premier dominant modder, like a gosu Bill Joy of modding, and all other modders will have no choice but to bend to his will or risk total failure. In other words, unite all the barbaric infidels under one iron rule.

A conversation about mods might go something like this:
"Hey have you heard? Leethaxor8800 developed a great mod, but unfortunately it isn't compatible with Improved Anvil."
"Aww...that sucks. I was looking forward to playing it. Oh well guess not"

It's easy to make most mods compatible with IA. All the mod's author needs to do is to contact me and consult with me about the possible compatibility issues.

New HLA suggestion:


Taunt


Most swashbucklers have a connection to the sea often being pirates as well, and as anyone can tell you most "men of the sea" have developed a very, very foul language.
Some high level swashbucklers have have developed this "skill" into a weapon.

What does it do:

Basically once per day/battle he can use taunt one 1 enemy.

If its a spell caster: it's spell will be interrupted should he be casting one, furthermore he will actually attempt to melee the swashbuckler for a few rounds.

If its a melee oriented creature: it will ignore whatever its doing and try to harm the swashbuckler( this way you can save a party member who is about to die) for a large many rounds, however there is a slight chance that this may backfire. If the insult is to great the monster may go berserk giving the creature all the bonuses that berserk gives. (or perhaps a custom more powerfull berserk)

Coupled with the high natural AC of the Swashbuckler, and later a tanking ability (like acrobatic combat) this should be a very interesting skill.

To balance things out there of course should be a (high)saving throw for the monsters.
The actual duration of the spell propably need some testing.

Appearance:

If successful some kind of variation of the confusion/chaos symbol above the monsters head would be nice.

as for the "casting" nothing fancy, just a text bubble( like when lilacor speaks) quoting (perhaps famous movie) insults.

@ G-Force
"You talking to me? You talking to ME!?"

That makes it almost useless unfortunately. On the level where you can use it all monster has very low saving throws. How about instead of saving throw if it affects only creatures not higher level than the swashbuckler?

Very interesting, but it would pretty much break every AI script though, wouldn't it?

Mages going melee doesn't sound very likely. If I were taunted I would just throw a fireball and a few magic missiles up his .....

I don't think having them switch targets is that easy to code either.