New HLA's for Swashbucklers Options

[Sikret]

Swashbucklers will no longer have access to "Use Any Item" HLA. Instead, I decided to add other HLA's for them. So far, four HLA's are added:

They already had access to one warrior HLA; so, I decided to add three more (though the total numbers of these new HLA's they can pick are fewer than the numbers a warrior can pick):

- Hardiness
- Critical Strike
- Resist Magic

I also added one new HLA:

- Acrobatic Combat

Description:

By using this ability, a high level swashbuckler can improve his agility and fighting expertise (in both defense and attack) to an extraordinary level. Acrobatic Combat grants +6 bonus to AC and +3 bonus to THAC0 for 5 rounds.

Suggestions for more new HLA's are welcome.*

Thanks.

* Ideas for new HLA's should be original (not copied or taken from other mods).

This post has been edited by Sikret: Oct 21 2008, 10:06 AM

Reason for edit: Fixing typos

[Kerkes]

I have a somewhat different suggestion - they can "specialize" in weapon proficiencies. However, they get no extra atteck for it, only dmg and THAC0 bonus which I find a bit lame. How about making it same like fighters have? They still won't be that great, even with imp.haste they get 4 attacks max, which isn't a lot.

[LZJ]

In response to Kerkes' post: perhaps a HLA that grants the Swashbuckler 1 extra attack per round for 10 rounds? Too bad they don't have UAI anymore! The Scarlet Ninjato would have made a good off-hand weapon.

Hmm the Acrobatic Combat Feat looks rather interesting. I can already picture using it with Whirlwind attack to offset the THAC0 disadvantage, or using it with Greater Evasion for low AC.

[Sikret]

In response to Kerkes' post: perhaps a HLA that grants the Swashbuckler 1 extra attack per round for 10 rounds? Too bad they don't have UAI anymore! The Scarlet Ninjato would have made a good off-hand weapon.

I'm not a big fan of adding bonus to "number of attacks per round" to items and spells; it will lead to weird behavior in conjunction with WhirlWind attack and will eventually drop the number of attacks to a very low number. It's a known and unfixable bug of the vanilla game when calculating number of attacks. When the number of attacks are supposed to surpass 10, it becomes buggy.

As a related point, one of the main drawbacks of swashbucklers is probably their low HP. Their THAC0 is not their main problem in my opinion (they have THAC0 bonuses) and now with the new Acrobatic Combat HLA, the THAC0 doesn't really need any further boost. Perhaps, a new HLA which temporarily adds to their HP is not a bad idea; or alternatively, I can add a new item upgrade for the Improved Cutthroat combined with a few potions of Fortitude and some such things to forge a new weapon for swashbucklers which adds bonus to HP.

Or do you suggest that we postpone making the decision to after testing swashbucklers with their new HLAs in practice and see whether they really need any further bonuses?

[LZJ]

Hmm the Acrobatic Combat Feat looks rather interesting. I can already picture using it with Whirlwind attack to offset the THAC0 disadvantage, or using it with Greater Evasion for low AC.

Woops, I wasn't clear on this, but I actually meant the +4 THAC0 penalty from activating Whirlwind Attack, thus offsetting their lack of the GWW HLA.

As a related point, one of the main drawbacks of swashbucklers is probably their low HP. Their THAC0 is not their main problem in my opinion (they have THAC0 bonuses) and now with the new Acrobatic Combat HLA, the THAC0 doesn't really need any further boost. Perhaps, a new HLA which temporarily adds to their HP is not a bad idea; or alternatively, I can add a new item upgrade for the Improved Cutthroat combined with a few potions of Fortitude and some such things to forge a new weapon for swashbucklers which adds bonus to HP.

I agree that the low HP may be an issue. Actually, Thieves have a HLA adding 20 bonus hit-points already (Avoid Death). I'm not sure which option would be the best... adding a new HLA which is stackable with Avoid Death; adding a HLA which is non-stackable; or replace Avoid Death with the new HLA.

Or do you suggest that we postpone making the decision to after testing swashbucklers with their new HLAs in practice and see whether they really need any further bonuses?

I think that the final decision can come after testing swashbucklers' new HLAs in practice, but I wouldn't mind seeing more unique suggestions in this thread such that they can possibly be tested as well in the upcoming testing round.

[lroumen]

Most of the time I used my Swashbuckler with Mirror Image and Stoneskin scrolls in addition to the Evade and Avoid Death HLAs to keep him alive. SometimesI also added Tensers Transformation and Protection from Magic Weapons Scrolls. Those were plenty for Vanilla and some other tactics mods.

Seeing you added Hardiness, Resist Magic and Acrobatic Combat to his abilities, I think Swashbucklers will have enough defense to offset the loss of scroll usage and item unrestriction (by removing Use Any Item).
I would probably test these HLAs first.



Btw, don't Swashbucklers get the Alchemy ability to create potions? There's a good strength potion that they can construct. Do you think it will be a bit too good for a combination with Critical Strike?

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 22 2008, 06:48 AM

[matti]

Dance of Death

40% chance for insta-kill target (no save)

AC decreased by 10

Duration - 5 rounds

This post has been edited by matti: Oct 22 2008, 10:43 AM

[Kerkes]

@ Matti

Woooohoooooooo....

I agree that giving them an extra attack will certainly lead to trouble such as attacking with 2 attacks per round while in WW attack. But from the description here, I get a feeling they're now much more in line with fighter classes.
From my previous IA experiences, having an AC of -25 will do little good vs. a lot of enemies.
"hardiness" is a welcome choice, as always.
What I think (note "I") is that they'll still come out short of a f/t multiclass, just as they did in IA5.
The best defence is not the AC or "Hardiness", it's the ability to hurt enemies fast enough so they can't hurt you faster.
It works for me at least, in so many fights (say Planar Warden, Yaga Sura etc)
Having 7 attacks with imp.haste beats having 4 attacks with imp.haste and -25 AC in both of these fights, even more so for Yaga.
If you use WW attack, you cannot drink potions in that round nor do anything else but attack. You'll also want quite a few "hardiness" HLA's anyway.
Not to mention that a f/t can backstabb, which a swash cannot. Sure, swash will do bigger damage. But only if whirlwinding, since a f/t will have higher number of attacks.


This post has been edited by Kerkes: Oct 22 2008, 12:29 PM

[Shadan]

Imho if Swashie can attack only 1 per hands, which means 4 attacks with Haste or even with Improved Haste, I always would chose a Swashie 10 > Fighter dual instead of single class Swashie. And with single class Swashie GWW always will be better than Crit. Strike, especially if his TAHCO will be god with new HLA.

[Sikret]

@kerkes

AC is not capped at -25.

For a character who dual-wields the best AC shown on his character sheet is -26 and for a character who uses shields the best AC shown on his character sheet is -24 (so, I even don't see whence the number -25 has come). But this doesn't mean that the character's effective AC can't be better than those numbers. They are just the best numbers you can read in the character's sheet (even when the character's actual AC is better than those numbers).

For example, if your swashbuckler has an AC of -23 before using the Acrobatic Combat HLA, after using the HLA the AC will indeed change to -29, even though the number you will see in the character sheet won't be better than -26.

I remmeber that Raven's tests (last year) confirmed this theory. You can also test it and report back the result to us. It's always nice to test again and be sure.

[Raven]

Actually what I remember is that the value displayed on your character's sheet is your base AC against all weapons, which *is* capped at -26 (or -25 for classes who can only put 1* on Single Weapon Style, -24 for singles class mages/sorcerers).

This can be made lower by up to another 20 points (to a final limit of -46) by the weapon type-specific modifiers which are written in the character record. It's not quite possible to get that extra 20 against all weapon types, though (just because of which bonuses various items happen to grant in the game).

So I think if you have a base AC of (say) -21 on your character sheet, and use this Acrobatic Combat HLA, your AC will be displayed as -24 and will actually be -24, not -27.

But my memory of this is somewhat hazy so like Sikret says it'd be good if someone could test it.

[Apsis]

I couldn't yet find an appropriate name but how about this;

-Every attack is a critical hit, and does maximum damage (as Kai ability)
-Damage is applied everyone around the swashbuckler
-6 point AC penalty
-Duration: 1 or 2 rounds (thieves already get less attacks so 2 may be better)

It's like swashbuckler drops his/her defences and hits everyone around while rotating around himself/herself. Damage may include or exclude allies but if it excludes allies more penalties can be considered (-x to saves etc.) or vice cersa.

[matti]

@ Matti

Woooohoooooooo....

I agree that giving them an extra attack will certainly lead to trouble such as attacking with 2 attacks per round while in WW attack. But from the description here, I get a feeling they're now much more in line with fighter classes.
From my previous IA experiences, having an AC of -25 will do little good vs. a lot of enemies.
"hardiness" is a welcome choice, as always.
What I think (note "I") is that they'll still come out short of a f/t multiclass, just as they did in IA5.
The best defence is not the AC or "Hardiness", it's the ability to hurt enemies fast enough so they can't hurt you faster.
It works for me at least, in so many fights (say Planar Warden, Yaga Sura etc)
Having 7 attacks with imp.haste beats having 4 attacks with imp.haste and -25 AC in both of these fights, even more so for Yaga.
If you use WW attack, you cannot drink potions in that round nor do anything else but attack. You'll also want quite a few "hardiness" HLA's anyway.
Not to mention that a f/t can backstabb, which a swash cannot. Sure, swash will do bigger damage. But only if whirlwinding, since a f/t will have higher number of attacks.

What?

Without UAI swashbuckler is pretty useless imo. He's like a crippled fighter with only better saves, but with all this rings +3, +4 etc. it doesn't matter. He needs a serious compensation for this (lack of UAI). And if you multiple his attacks - here comes a bug, so I choose this ...eerr.. original option: insta-kill.

25% chance, 2 rounds will be better?

I couldn't yet find an appropriate name but how about this;

-Every attack is a critical hit, and does maximum damage (as Kai ability)
-Damage is applied everyone around the swashbuckler
-6 point AC penalty
-Duration: 1 or 2 rounds (thieves already get less attacks so 2 may be better)

It's like swashbuckler drops his/her defences and hits everyone around while rotating around himself/herself. Damage may include or exclude allies but if it excludes allies more penalties can be considered (-x to saves etc.) or vice cersa.

Excellent idea, imo.

[Kerkes]

@ Sikret

Yes, I agree with AC thing you wrote. Dunno where I got -25 , I never got up to that number (-19, -20 perhaps with Berskerkers, without Shield of any kind, 2-handed wpns). But enemies also attack incredibly quickly (say Granlords, Elite Fire Giants), and are bound to hit you regardless, for massive damage. Another thing is the Critical Strike HLA, which can be used with imp.haste, but not with WW.
Swashs also take a while to get to really low AC, and they won't be able to use Full Plate without UAI.
Their bonuses max out at +8 I believe, no? With WW, bonus to hit is actually +4, damage is decreased by 4, which is not that much "bonus" anymore, especially since you'll be using WW before lvl40.
As for decreasing your AC, I believe there are some potions which give -10 to AC vs.blunt, there are ways to decrease it against missiles. Don't know about slashing but that Golden Girdle.
Anyway, am looking forward to see how much useful will swashs be, it's really been a while since I last played one (never in IA actually).

@Matti

perhaps this ability would go better with asassins..

@Apsis

This is like a "kamikaze strike"!!!

[geh4th]

I envision a replacement ability that makes Swashbucklers less like thieves and more like fighters as they get more experienced.

Swashbucklers are the 'fighters among thieves', supposedly the most martial of that profession. It would stand to reason that at higher levels their physical training and exceptional healthy physique would pay off big in some fashion.

UAI was a permanent, take-it-one-time-and-use-it-forever benefit. This replacement ability ought to be equally as useful, and also a permanent benefit.

Swashies have great offensive and defensive class abilities, but in IA we know that the powerful opponents are going to hit you no matter what...so that nice AC benefit is lessened if you're up on front-line combat. They can't backstab, so what exactly is a Swashbuckler's role in combat? Simple: It's fighting. They need to become better fighters at high level.

I'm working off the cuff here - If you guys like it, then take the idea and run with it - but how about:

===========

Improved Physique (Swashbuckler HLA, can be selected only once)

The Swashbuckler gains the following permanently:

+2 to hit points per level
Immunity to Backstab
+2 to saves vs. Poison and Breath Weapon
an extra 1/2 attack per round


My rationale with the hit point bonus is to give Swashbucklers a boost towards being "agile fighters" at higher levels. A hit point bonus is needed simply because Armor Class alone isn't enough to keep a Swashbuckler alive. Even with a +2 per level, they're still something on the order of at least 4 hit points per level behind true fighters. They gain to-hit and damage bonuses, but they'll never have the equivalent number of attacks per round that fighters have, either. They can't wear as heavy armor, so SOMETHING has to make the Swashbuckler better in stand-up combat.

Backstab immunity is a defense against thieves themselves...who better to know how thieves ply their trade than another thief? This would be from training and experience, not a primeval 'sixth sense' like Barbarians have.

The save bonuses are to reflect two things: for Poison, it's a resistance to something commonly seen in the 'thieving world', so it stands to reason they'd gain a resistance sooner or later (if not outright immunity)...and breath weapon attack saves typically bring to mind some sort of evasive manuevers - right up the alley of a Swashbuckler.

Finally there's the 1/2 attack per round. This is just to keep them from being completely snubbed as a class due to having too few of the all-important attacks-per-round so desperately needed and desired at high levels. It is again something of a 'half-fighter' measure.

[LZJ]

Improved Physique (Swashbuckler HLA, can be selected only once)

The Swashbuckler gains the following permanently:

+2 to hit points per level
Immunity to Backstab
+2 to saves vs. Poison and Breath Weapon
an extra 1/2 attack per round

@geh4th:

I like your idea and I agree with your reasoning. However, I'm not sure if the extra 1/2 attack per round would lead to coding problems as the others have mentioned above.


Here's another HLA suggestion: (based on the idea that perhaps swashbucklers are more graceful than normal thieves)

Greater Evasion (can be picked once only)
(1) -8 to AC (BUT instead of the base AC being modified, the -8 goes to the specific AC modifiers instead, thus allowing the effective AC to go below -26... I think)
(2) +5 to all saves
(3) +20% physical resistances (since swashbucklers don't have UAI, I don't think it would lead to 100% or more physical resistances without the barbarian potion)
(4) Lasts 5 rounds
(5) At end of 5 rounds, swashbuckler gets fatigued just like clerics do after casting Greater Restoration, due to the strain on the body from this supreme evasive maneuver.

[geh4th]

I understand that Sikret is, as he said above, "not a big fan of adding attacks per round", but if I read correctly he also went on to say that this is buggy when going over 10 per round.

If I have the math right, adding a small number - even just 1/2 per round - might give the Swash some usefulness while not ever even approaching the 10 per round level. A vanilla Swashbuckler can't get more than 1 attack per round by profession; they can specialize in weapons but IIRC they don't get the extra attacks per round that warriors get. So a dual wielding Swashbuckler would never have more than 2.5 attacks per round, doubling to a maximum of 5 when improved hasted. There's no way to further increase it, is there?

I really feel that if a permanent ability is removed from the Swashbuckler...a very POWERFUL permanent ability...they should get something permanent in return. Or at least equally powerful.

My suggestion might work even if the extra 1/2 attack per round is ignored, but the idea was to permanently improve a HIGH LEVEL Swashbuckler's ability to stand up to bad guys in face to face combat. The signature of the class is being "hard to hit" and an "expert with weapons", which their class bonuses support, but does this AC bonus lose effectiveness at higher levels in an Improved Anvil environment? I've heard and seen that no matter how good your AC is, the strong bad guys WILL hit you.

The end result is that without more hit points, I think that a Swashbuckler is toast in combat without major compensation.


The question for each of us to ask ourselves is: what would make you WANT to have a pure Swashbuckler in the group? Most people want a thief, but only need modest thieving abilities in practice. The only Swashbuckler's I've generally heard about always dual-class to something else at level 10; nobody wants to "waste" a character slot on any form of pure thief, it seems. And of course as a dual, you don't get the Swash HLA's, making it a moot point for them.

Without something (like their HLA's) making people go "Oooohhh, COOL!" I don't see a pure Swashbuckler being a popular option. It'd have to be really good.

[Sikret]

I've heard and seen that no matter how good your AC is, the strong bad guys WILL hit you.

I've also heard this comment, but it's not true. An excellent AC will prove to be very beneficial and effective against the vast majority of enemies even in TOB. Sometimes, players merely think of some special enemies with excellent THACo's (such as the Ancient Dragon or Rakshasa Prince) and then make general conclusions which are not true. Enemies with such excellent THAC0's are very rare.

[Raven]

Yeah, it's certainly untrue to say that enemies like Skeleton Grandlords or IA golems will always hit - with the right buffs and equipment these enemies will be hitting under half the time. Remember that, as well as spells that improve AC, there are spells that affect the enemy to-hit rolls (e.g. Doom, Improved Invisibility, Protection from Evil). You can combine these with a low AC (plus weapon type-specific bonuses) to achieve an incredibly low effective AC of around -30. There aren't many enemies with a THAC0 or -20 or better.

[geh4th]

Admittedly, I'm certainly not an expert at higher levels or late-game play. I was merely reporting the impression I get from reading others' reports. I didn't intentionally mean to spread an untrue sentiment, but in many cases the choice whether to play or not play a particular class of character is entirely based on common perception. That was the point I really wanted to make.

I've said my 2 cents worth on the issue...which might just have about that much value (i.e. nothing.) I'll defer to you more educated folks on the matter.