This thread will document my experiences with my first serious attempt with IA v5.0. This is the first IA version I've played and I'm still fairly new to the mod; comments from others regarding my decisions, progress and problems are welcome.

I did a fairly short initial trial with 5.0 using a Vagrant and all-bioware NPC’s, but decided early on that I’d already seen/heard most of the NPC banter ad nauseum and frankly, it was getting old after many games of BG2. I decided to restart and customize a party to what I wanted to use and just pay attention to the business of campaigning.

As a result, I created 4 characters on multiplayer as the core of my group:

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1) Human Vagrant protagonist
Weapons: 2-wpn combat x3, longsword x2, flail, club, longbow
L9 will be flail again unless I've somehow found a better weapon than the FoA by then. Not bloody likely I figure.

Notes: This is the same protagonist I was using with the previous game; I want to play out the Vagrant to see those new quests. Next game I'll do a mage type.
Ability score note: I legitimately rolled an 18/00 strength with this PC. First time I've ever done that in many years of roleplaying. I nearly fell out of my chair
I took club because based on my earlier experience, those seemed to be a very prevalent decent quality weapon available early. Flail is obviously for the FoA and the late-game goodies that become available. I'm also looking to get at least one * in Axe soon (probably L12, but depends on what weapons I come up with, too.)

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2) Dwarven Fighter/Thief
Weapons: Warhammer x2, Shortsword x2, Axe x2

I wanted a decent thief that continues to level in the profession throughout ToB. His next 3 weapons picks are going to be in dual-wielding.
With a 19 constitution, this PC is a surprisingly good tank, particularly if before the tougher battles I have him don 'real' armor. With the Dwarven Thrower hammer, he's tremendously effective early in the game and I don't expect that to change.

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3) Human Ranger, Dualled to cleric immediately.
Weapons: 2-wpn combat style x3, Flail x2, Club x2, Hammer
As Cleric: Quarterstaff, Sling; mace at L4. Will take Quarterstaff again at L8 (there's some decent +3 staves available early.)
I love this class combination for a PC. Ranger abilities, Cleric spells and Druid Spells. Beats the heck out of Anomen if you ask me, despite the 4* he has in flail. I'm not a fan of going beyond 2* in a weapon anyhow, IMO the return is simply not worth the investment. And while it's not all that relevant for a cleric (who can't use slashing/piercing weapons) I think that it's foolish to over-specialize in one weapon class in a mod that encourages weapon diversity because of monster resistances to damage type.
The reason I dualled right away was to get the extra weapon proficiency at L8 cleric. I'm not sure if this is prudent since I'm 'wasting' about 15,000 xp's, but it seemed a reasonable goal. It also means she will regain her Ranger abilities relatively fast.

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4) Human Beserker
Weapons: 2-handed weapon style x2, 2-handed sword x2, Halberd x2.
My intent is for this PC to dual to mage at level 9. As a mage she'll take Quarterstaff (L1) + Dart (L6), then at L12 Quarterstaff again.
She's my 2-handed weapon specialist, needless to say.

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My last two spots will be BioWare NPC's that will vary initially as I do quests, but I'm a bit undecided on which two to carry into the late game. I'm fascinated by the Auramaster (Cernd, specifically) thanks to the class' incredible number and versatility of spells. Cernd is a bit lacking statistically (If only he had an 18 dex!) but his items upgrades look really cool - not to mention a few other druid-specific items available both from IA and vanilla SoA/ToB.

Imoen will ultimately be my last NPC once I get to her. I've read some game reports and realize that she's very powerful later in the game. Besides, she's been there from the start (of BG1) and I consider her essential to the story. Otherwise, what's the point?

This gives me 4 "tanks" (Vagrant, Fighter/Thief, Beserker/Mage, Ranger/Cleric) and 2 pure spellcasters (Auramaster, Sorcerer.) If this seems out of balance for IA, or if there's any obvious flaws that I'm overlooking, I invite anyone to comment on it. Do I have enough pure fighter firepower (i.e. will they be good enough later in the game)? Do I have enough arcane firepower? Is 2 divine casters too much (despite Cernd's arcane abilities)? If so, who would I replace Cernd with? Valygar? Haer'Dalis? Another custom PC? Someone else?

Thanks in advance for any input. I look forward to sharing my experiences just as others of you already have.


geh4th (maybe I'll invent a cool name for myself someday.)

Playing an Auramaster may be a bit tricky for beginners. Are you also going to play with 5 party members till you reach Imoen?

My suggestion is to replace Cernd with a powerful warrior (ex: a half orc Berserker with 19 str. and 19 con) and also pick a custom Sorcerer to be replaced with Imoen in spellhold.

I'm not saying that your current party is weak or the mod can't be played with it; but if you are new to the mod, it's perhaps wiser to try a more solid party composition for your first turn of playing. Later, when you become a tactical giant, you can try the mod with very diverse sets of party members in your future run-throughs.

"Tactical Giant".

Heh, that's funny, at least from my perspective as a "Tactical Dwarf" right now.

Actually I've changed my mind from what I'd outlined in the first post. Here's the party I've been using so far in the game:

1) (the same) Vagrant protagonist, didn't do club; did Axe x2, Longsword x2, Flail x2, 2WC x2 (now x3)
2) Cavalier, with ** in the three 2-handed weapons (2h Sword, Halberd, Staff) and ** in 2-H weapons style
3) (the same) Ranger-dualled to Cleric at start. The usual blunt weapons all **'d.
4) Anomen (primarily) for a while, but recently shifted to Valygar, who joined up already at 12th level.
5) Half-Elf Skald, at least until I get Imoen back. More an experiment with Bards than anything; I've never used one.
6) Nalia



As a beginner, following Sikret's suggestion, I've backed off on my interest in Cernd for the time being. Maybe later.

I still plan to get Imoen once I'm in spellhold. It's going to be a difficult choice between several people depending on how that Bard is panning out. I really like some aspects of him - I think of him as a fighter/mage sort of guy - while the jury is still out on whether he's going to contribute much in the way of combat skills. I'd sure love to get my mitts on that Eternal Melody armor, though. His through-the-roof lore skill and especially the Skald's song have proved quite useful on many occasions so far.

I've started this game and actually played quite a bit so far. I'm in Chapter 3. I followed Raven's walkthrough for the most part. As of now, I'm mainly 12th-13th level (Skald is 15th, his song just got better). I've not yet gone to spellhold. I have finished the De'Arnise hold and done Aran's first 2 tasks.

Larger SoA quests/encounters unfinished:

-Slums: Planar Sphere, Slaver hold (Hendak/Beastmaster and all of CC Sewers are done)
-Temple: Gaius party, Mekrath's lair, Theshal's ghoul township, Ashideena, Guarded Compound
-Bridge: Planar Prison, & the obvious - Lich/Twisted rune
-Graveyard: Bohdi's lair, Pa'nai's lair
-City Gates: haven't touched Tower of Deception nor braved that secret door...
-Docks: haven't bothered things best left unbothered until I'm a bigger boy (Lich thingies)
-Promenade: Mencar's party - these guys keep kicking my arse. I can't seem to get 'em to fail a save vs. Emotion, even doomed/malison'ed. Had a tough time.
-Gov't: nothing that I can think of

-De'Arnise: Hold cleared (Torgal fight was fun); Merchant complained, Isaea abducted Nalia, I've got her back
-Umar Hills: all pre-Ranger stronghold stuff done
-Temple Ruins: all initial encounters done; only Dragon and Shade Lord to go
-Windspear: all done except a couple of the Guardian Genies, Samia's group, Conster, and the Lord himself
-Druid Grove: Haven't braved the Troll mound or Ogre Tower
-Trademeet: Haven't braved the crypt, haven't done Chaos Monster
-Watcher's Keep: haven't gone there yet, but level 1 was next on my planned list of things-to-do. Someone tell me if I should avoid it until ToB. I know I can go now; is it useful/advisable to do so?

The only IA item I've forged so far is the Improved Dragon helm. I'm pretty conservative and want to hold onto hard-to-get ingredients until I know I can put them to use...but this one doesn't use anything really hard to come by. I figure 45% elemental resistance can come in handy. I'm still looking for my first permanency scroll; I've got the other makings of the Djinni Summoning ring.


G

I suggest that you postpone forging Ring of Djinni summoning to when you can immediately upgrade it to Ring of Greater Djinni Summoning, because in its lesser form its an item of the vanilla game and according to its description will be destroyed if the summoned djinni dies during a battle. The upgraded version isn't so (i.e. the ring will remain even if the summoned greater djinni is killed and you will be able to use it again).

Thank you, Sikret! Great tip, I had no idea that it was a risky item like that. I'd hate to forge it and then lose it.

Trouble spots or interesting experiences (not necessarily in the order I did them):

Faldorn: a real b*tch of an encounter (sorry for the pun, Faldorn) with a low-level Vagrant, as discussed elsewhere. Based on previous experience, I knew what to expect and planned accordingly. I got it right in only 2 tries (3 charm animals out of 4, yay! Bears, meet Ms. Faldorn...)

Great Druid duel was a joke, with having all your equipment. Quite the anticlimax following Faldorn. I think I heard that this one is on Sikret's v6 drawing board. In my opinion it needs it. Cleric Stronghold needs some serious help too, if you ask me.

Mencar: I know I initially tried this one too early. As I've gained levels and items, I've periodically tried them again. They consistently kick my butt; it might be a lack of luck on my part (I've failed to knock anyone out with the Malison-Emotion attempts; I don't know of any reason why they shouldn't be succeptible to it) but Amon by himself tends to disable and fry my party singlehandedly with his high-level spells. I'm still learning about considering how to improve my own defenses.

Troll Mound: I made the mistake of entering during my first visit to the Druid Grove. About 30 seconds later, my whole group lay dead or dying. Then I, ah, woke up, safe in my bedroll in camp...in a cold sweat... (this is one we'll come back to later. A LOT later. )

I've heard what's in that Ogre Tower and I ain't messin' with that yet. I HATE those things.

Suna Seni: Memo to self: get things that improve your saving throws. I hate getting held/confused/commanded/emotioned. Thank you for free action and chaotic commands. My R/C is especially notorious for failing her saves and getting held or worse. Doctor, heal thyself. Difficult battle thanks to the spells, but certainly not insurmountable. No casualties. Just a taste of things to come.

Glaicas: Tough fight at the point I did it, but I beat him without reloading. I didn't know at the time that Breach would help. I figure I made it harder than it was. His companion was a bit of a surprise when I went around the corner and caused a moment of panic... we were already damaged, but we survived. Did I mention I hate those things? Fortunately it was essentially two separate battles.

Greater Yuan-Ti: this bastard took forever to kill! Probably my most memorable victory to date. At one point, he KO'ed every single party member except the Vagrant with an emotion spell. I figured "game over!" at that point, but kept going to see how long I'd last. The Vagrant spent a good bit of time running circles around him trying not to get hit, while he hosed off spell after spell at me. By some miracle I managed to save vs. any truly bad stuff, all the while taking damage from flame arrows and acid arrows during that time (and drinking lots of healing potions.) Lo and behold, his protections run out and my party wakes up more or less at the same time. We close and hack away, but as a final (insulting) parting shot before he was mashed into goo, the Yuan-Ti used his dying breath to cast a FEEBLEMIND on my Vagrant - and of course, for the first time I fail my save. Duh! (literally). He was dead, but I was brain dead. (drool).

Not having been the victim of this spell before (and not remembering P&P very well) it took me a while to figure out how to get myself out of that situation. I was determined not to have to replay THAT battle.

Torgal: major hack-fest. I figured out that burning hands is a good spell to use on Trolls, especially spellcaster trolls. I also figured out that I don't like SPOILER!
Golems either. Fortunately, it was my summons that demonstrated that this was a bad thing. Ray of Fragmentation....where are you? (Found a RoF scroll shortly thereafter. I guess I'd better get used to using it.)

Unseeing Eye: I know this one isn't modded (except Theshal, who was another "bad dream". Whew.) However, without the Shield of Balduran, Beholders and their kin take on a new degree of terror, since they're trying to slice you to bits with spells before you can even get to the buggers. The pit was quite an adventure. Thanks to the unholy device, the Eye himself wasn't too bad to deal with (a certain summoned fire elemental might not necessarily agree.)

Copper Coronet/Beastmaster/sewers: I think I did this one later than most people. My R/C had 6th level spells and it turned out to be an easy fight. (yawn). I went on to the sewers...had some fun with the 'companion': someone (forget who) got held, took a beating and got killed. Raised 'em and went on to the riddle. Nice upgrade, annoying little pests! And the shadow lover was a challenge. I figured out what to use on him though; once that revelation set in, it turned a difficult battle into an easy one (relatively speaking.) I'm now the proud owner of a deranged sword...

Gracen: Sometimes I get into a battle that turns out to be very frustrating, and I lose my cool a bit banging my head on incorrect tactics or just plain bad luck. This one certainly frustrated me, but I never could figure out exactly what I did wrong the first few times I faced him. He seemed so FAST... I even asked Sikret about it in my frustration. He assured me that Gracen wasn't doing anything unusual, and the conversation got me to review what I'd been doing. I WAS doing damage but I was shown a lesson in realizing that the bad guys have potions too, and they'll use them. When I went at him again, I had better tactics and defeated him surprisingly easy considering the previous trouble I'd had. Maybe I'll try that Mencar group again soon.

Guardians of King Strom's mask: I'm having trouble - as I'm sure we all have had - with the Improved Invisibility/Spell Immunity: Divination trick. What's worse, I haven't figured out what can actually damage the things even when I do roll high enough to hit them. Oh, eventually they run out of spells and I can outlast them, but while their initial protections are up, I don't score a single point of damage. Ever. Invisible is one thing, but they seem invulnerable. I didn't notice any sort of PfMW or Mantle type spells, so why can't I damage them?

G-

A question for the panel:

Are scrolls sold in various stores randomized? I've been looking for a scroll of "death spell", but have yet to find one for sale anywhere. Needless to say, I've not found one as loot, either. I've seen references from people to "buy some scrolls of death spell" and wonder where they get them.

I have found scrolls of death fog, but isn't that one dangerous to your own party?

G-

That's probably because you don't roll high enough "to hit" rolls to actually hit them. There is a bug in the vanilla game which I have already fixed in v6:

When a creature is improved invisible (no matter through which of the spells which grant improved invisibility) a hidden -4 penalty is applied to "to hit" rolls of any craature trying to hit them. However, the 4th level spell "Improved Invisibility" also applies +4 bonus to AC *in addition* to that standard "to hit" penalty. It seems that the game's developers (while making this spell) had forgotten that being improved invisible (by itself) makes the target harder to hit. Consequently, when you now try to hit them, you have your standard -4 penalty, but they also have an additional +4 bonus; if you normally needed to roll a 12 to hit them, you will now need a 20 to roll a hit. This vanilla bug is fixed in IA v6.

In general, it's not a bad idea to activate the option which shows the dice rolls on the screen. You will know whether you are hitting a target or not and can figure out your chances to hit any target.



Some scrolls are indeed randomized, but "Death Spell" scrolls are not among them. However, I don't think that you can find any 'Death Spell' scroll in any of the pre-spellhold stores. They are sold in underdark. You still have the chance of finding those scrolls in chapter 3 as the loot of some of the spellcasting enemies you kill.

I love Gem Golems. They are quite easy to kill, they produce a huge amount of XP and they give very nice treasure. For my party they are easier to kill than Coin Golems which is a bit suprising. The secret is in the weapon types.

One interesting thing is that my monk started to shine at level 12th-13th. I expect even bigger improvement from level 14th and 15th (MR + fist considered as +3 weapon). This is really nice because I like my monk.

About malison+emotion not working on mencar & dorks co. , it might be because they might have drunk a magic shielding potion (those that give 50% more res to magical dmg, and that makes the character always save), so remove magic first is the way to go, if it still doesn't work then might just be immune to it.I think at least one of them uses barbarian rage, but i don't really recall since that battle was fairly normal and didn't left me no impression other than i enjoyed mopping the floor with their mouths and teeth for abusing my evil sorceress.

As a point apart.Monk doesn't exactly strike me as a very useful IA char, only 1 weapon style and takes long till getting to+4 enchantment, for the other types of dmg sure you can use other weapons than fist but it will just be a really weak version of a fighter that can't even use one of the new nice armors available now and also they will get only about 50% physical res with a new amulet and hardiness whic i harly think it will be enough latter on; stun and quivering palm latter on on the enemies that they would be actually usefull i am pretty sure they are going to be immune to those effects, and magic resistantce ins't that WOW anymore; i got 2 chars on my game on my 6 element party that is almost in the end of ToB with 70% magic res and other with 55%, and they keeping get lowered resisted all the time...while it buys some rounds off the enemies casters since they have to some rounds lowering it, it not a very reliable means of protection on its own.

Hmm.

Since I added Valygar to my party, I've always got this nagging feeling that Sikret is staring at me from out of my computer monitor.

A couple of idle questions:

1) I know that the rules of AD&D 2.0 were a bit...arbitrary...(to say the least) in terms of what races could be what class, who could multiclass, that only humans can dual class, etc etc....and that you can have certain kits in the first class but can't in the 2nd (in a dual.)

This if course is part of what led to 3.0 and onwards, I guess. Cuz it's kind of stupid IMO.

Case in point: Why the heck is Anomen NOT a "Priest of Helm" (kit)? He's a classic case of a guy that should be. He babbles about Helm often enough. Is it so much to ask that his second class be an almighty 'kit', against the rules? (yes, I know you can do this with SK. Would one consider it 'cheating'?)

For that matter, why isn't every cleric a "priest of XX"? It's not like their kits are overpowering, particularly compared to things like Auramaster and Vagrants. There's a minimal advantage - I think all of them get 2 additional spells as special abilities - and no disadvantage. Why wouldn't any cleric be a priest of somebody-or-other? I know the game simplifies deities into the one good-one neutral-one evil triumverate, but all deities are sort of abstracted into this.

Perhaps revamping clerics and their strongholds could be part of a future IA revision.


2) Similar musings: I know that Sikret has a shine for Rangers, and is converting Valygar to a "Protector" in IA6.0. My question is a bit rhetorical, but goes like this: if anyone in the game should actually be a "wizard slayer", shouldn't it be this guy? It seems like the original writers might have had something like this in mind, but somehow he ended up being a wizard-hating Ranger.

I wouldn't ask that he be changed - I'm cool with the protector idea - but psychologically, Valygar acts like he'd like to kill every wizard on the planet. He'd be a good poster-boy for the he-man wizard-haters club.



I'm bored cuz I'm at work. Can anyone tell?

G-

One more before I head home (and can play, yay!):

I've seen several references now to Liches in the Temple Ruins. I did the ruins already - short of a certain Dragon and Mr. Shady-Lord himself...and never saw a lich. Is this something that's level dependant? Perhaps I did the ruins at a lower level than would result in Liches as the opposition. I did get Skeleton Lords and Bone Golems IIRC.

I'd be interested to know.

G-

Yeah that'll be the reason.

This was very funny. Does it help you play better or the opposite?!

At least now Valygar's portrait will always remind all players who are considering even the slightest form of cheat that they won't be able to get away with it, because Helm Sees All!

Edit: Sorry, I've just realized this is slightly ambigious. I didn't want to imply that geh4th ever cheated. It is a general comment

I had actually taken it the way you meant it, Baronius. Thanks, though, for making it clear for the benefit of all other readers.

I'm glad to see my observation caused a few chuckles.

Update of my game:

I'm just about ready to head to Spellhold, cleaning up some leftover encounters before leaving. I'm also wanting to forge a few much-needed items. My party is primarily 14th level at this point. I know to be careful that my protagonist (Vagrant) doesn't make 15th before going to Brynnlaw.

Vagrant - 14, Flail of the Ages +3, Frostreaver +3
Cavalier - 14, Lilarcor
Valygar - 13, +3 club, his own Katana
Skald - 17, +3 Short sword of Backstabbing, sings a whole lot
Ranger-7/Cleric - 15; Treefolk's Arm +4
Nalia - 14; Martial Staff +3

So far, I've only forged 2 significant items: Improved Dragon Helm and Treefolk's Arm.
My only other +4 weapon at this point is the Staff of Rynn (which is used by the Cavalier).

I haven't done any of Watcher's Keep, Shade Lord, Shadow Dragon, Firekraag, Samia's Party, Chaos Monster, Pirate Hideout, any of the city Liches, Twisted Rune (duh), Planar Prison, Guarded compound, Borinall. (There probably are other Ch 2/3 unfinished quests that I've missed listing here.) I have just been given permission to get the Paladin Stronghold but haven't gone to the order yet, have done fighter stronghold up to installation of the Cleric storekeeper, and finished all of the Cleric quests. My Mage apprentices are working on their first item.

My most recent triumph was Conster, on my 3rd try. First try was a massacre as I wasn't prepared and didn't know what to expect (gah!), 2nd try I almost won, was down to the last skeleton lord when Conster PW-killed my Vagrant....then the lightbulb went on and I realized how to deal with all of the skeletons and keep Conster busy while doing it. It was REALLY easy when I realized what to do (I hardly even took any damage at all through all 8 Skelly's. Felt pretty good about that.)

I have an experience cushion before I'm 15th (about 250K before Vagrant makes a new level), so I'm wanting to do something else significant to get some upgrade components before going on the trip to spellhold. I'm still looking for ingredients to Phosphorus - I need the 2nd Morningstar +2 (I got the one from the Jailor) and a couple of permanency scrolls (I've used one for Treefolk's Arm, and I have one, I need 2 more.)

Anyone have any advice on where to go next, with the goal of upgrade components in mind? Nothing specific, but in general, what would a party of this type be able to handle, and where am I likely to find things that are most useful for upgrading? Can I handle the Shadow Dragon at this stage? Pirate hideout? Planar Prison? Borinall? Watcher's Keep? I know I probably can't handle Firekraag, Samia's party, the Liches or the Guarded Compound quite yet.

This isn't strictly correct, you need to worry about the xp you gain in Brynnlaw prior to the actual asylum too. To be honest I would head for Brynnlaw now, your party is well-equipped IMO.

My Vagrant group is in the Spellhold Asylum dungeon, I just finished the first level. If memory serves I'm about to run into that tome that summons nasties.

To keep myself sharp and interested, I wanted some variety so I've started a concurrent (new) game. I'll alternate games as my interest in groups sways back and forth. It also is an opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and do some things more efficiently this time around.

This 2nd group has a Sorcerer Protagonist. I wanted to do this to see the extended Mage stronghold content, as well as "life from the other side" (as a mage rather than a vagrant.) I initially thought I'd want to do a Conjuror, but ultimately decided that a Sorcerer was simply a better spellcaster.

I face a bit of a quandry, though. I don't really feel that I need two sorcerers (Imoen). I can of course leave her out of the party, but I don't necessarily want to do that. Sikret has often advised sternly about not changing classes for certain NPC's (Keldorn, Valygar...) but I don't specifically recall if there's anything with Imoen that would crash the game or IA content if Imoen were changed. I figured that was more because those NPC's have unique items associated with them, wheras Imoen doesn't have any items. I was considering making her a bard or kit thereof (I'm partial to Skalds in my brief experience with Bards.) And IA 5.0 will be the last time I'll ever have any interest in using a bard, thanks to the impending changes coming in v6.0, so why not...

Bottom line, would changing Imoen's class (to anything, not just Bard) present me with any long-term problems? She's already been changed once, after all. I know people routinely change Minsc to a Beserker and often see Jaheira as a Cleric/Ranger.

I also plan to use several multiclass NPC's in this group, a Dwarven Fighter-Thief and an Elven Fighter-Mage. I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out or finding info on gaining high-level abilities. Can someone tell me how gaining HLA's works for Multiclass characters? Is it at 3-million-ish total XP, or when each class has that much XP, or something else entirely? If this is written someplace, I'd appreciate info on where.

All in all, my long-term idea for this party goes something like this:

Protagonist Sorcerer
Valygar
Dwarf Fighter-Thief
Elf Fighter-Mage
Anomen
Imoen (changed to Skald as I currently see things.)

I'm a little short on divine spellcasting power, but I've done one-divine parties before and seem to be able to get by. I like the melee firepower of this group. I've considered dropping Valygar for a Cleric/Ranger dual, but I like Valygar and I feel that I'd be committing some sort of blasphemy by removing him (seeing as he's sort of Sikret's persona...er, personified.) I fear lightning bolts from above and that sort of thing.

Comments and/or answer to the questions above are welcome.

G-

1)If you start another game there are very high risk to cancel it permanently. I do it sometimes and i abandon it sadly.
2)The skald not enough strong to anvil. They cant fight enough well, and you waste a character slot to a character who singing in the 80% of the game, and sometimes throw a spell. The main problem of the skald is he cannot dual wield, and has only one attack. The worst thing is that the HLA improved bard song more effective than the skald song, and any bard can learn it. Their maximum effective attack per round is 4 (with belm and improved haste)
The blade is more effective than the skald. Their lore are not as good but enough, and much better than the mages, they do the pickpocket better. They reach the 100% early so you can earn some bonus money from athakala without thiving potion. They can learn dual weapon style with *** and so they can attack more per round. Their spins are very good and add good AC or max damage and thac0. They need some babysitting but after a small time they are very good subtite of a fighter/mage.
3)Don't alter Imoen class she is not bard. If you want a bard pick up Haer'Dalis
4)Advise: change your PC to Conjurer or Necromancer because the sorcerer has smaller chance to forge memori of apprenti, change your f/m to gnome F/I, F/M/C or Haer'Dalis or a custom skald if you want it all price. Use Imoen as sorcerer. In this way you cannot use game editor so you won't become cheater.

A skald isn't very good when weapons are concerned, but you can accomplish a few bits to use them properly.
You can use a Skald for bows (Tuigan Bow = 3 attacks per round if I recall correctly, quite decent) or crossbows, although you do have to find arrows/bolts with a decent enchantment since certain monsters require a certain enchantment to hit. Some monsters are also immune to missile damage altogether, so be wary when that happens and just sing.
You can also go with (returning) darts or throwing daggers, throwing axes, throwing hammers.... the good ones are more difficult to come by and you may not be attacking very often (save for the darts), but once you find them the odd hit would do well. You can also use Melf's Minute Meteors for a bit of a kick, but I'd rather save a few slots for more useful spells, i.e. don't go too much overboard on the meteors.

I usually use my crappy melee/ranged characters to kill off summoned spiders or something whilst keeping them off the casting so I can more easily anticipate enemy casters.

I'd have to agree with Ryel that the Skald isn't a very strong character (even without IA they are unfortunately obsolete because of the bard song HLA).

At the moment your party has only Valygar with the single-class fighter THAC0 progression because of including both a fighter/mage and a fighter/thief. IMO you may want to replace one or other with a single class fighter or, maybe better, a dual class, for instance replacing the fighter/mage with a berserker/mage dual, or the fighter/thief with a swashbuckler/fighter or berserker/thief.

"3)Don't alter Imoen class she is not bard. If you want a bard pick up Haer'Dalis."



Well, she's not a Sorcerer, either. Technically.

And frankly, I have no use for Haer'Dalis. IMO he's annoying and just about the worst NPC in the game, despite his nice personal sword.

I mean really, can changing Imoen's class be considered "cheating" when Sikret has already done it? That is, as long as it doesn't BREAK anything within the mechanics of BG2 or IA, which is what I'm really looking to know. Changing Valygar or Keldorn to some other class would screw up their personal items. Imoen's actual profession doesn't appear to be central to the story or to game mechanics unless there's something I don't yet know.

I suspect that Imoen became a sorcerer primarily because SoA doesn't have one outside of NPC Mods. I also gather that Sikret doesn't have much use (personally) for thief/mages. IA has made thieves considerably less useful, so it was a natural development to change Immy to a Sorcerer. I further suspect that Bards will lose all their appeal with the planned v6.0 changes. Just how much appeal they've ever had is a matter for debate. I know if they don't get 6th level spells, I'll never use one, as a marginal class becomes basically useless with that change. Taking away THE most important spells from a class that's effectiveness is already in question - as you've pointed out - can't be anything but a negative for that class. Just my opinion, of course.

My own reasoning for wanting a bard was:
1) Spells to 8th level (eventually) makes her a decent backup mage-type, particularly as a dispeller.
2) That wonderful armor that gives more spells and permanent improved alacrity. I don't know how hard it is to get, but it's very appealing.
3) Levelling faster, which means that someone might actually be effective in casting remove magic on some of these bad guys. I know Keldorn can do his dispels at (nerfed) higher levels, but I don't have room for Keldorn because of other priorities.
4) A Bard always has something useful to do. If not casting, singing. If needed, she can fight. Sure, she wouldn't have the extra attacks per round, but (as a Skald) can learn any weapon, and has a built-in +1 to hit/+1 damage. This means the Skald is "almost specialized" in any weapon by merely being proficient.
5) UAI and the Enhanced Bard song: even for a Skald, the Enhanced song is well worth the HLA pick. It's not as much of a jump but it's considerably better anyhow. As for UAI, being able to use nearly any non-personalized item is rather big if you ask me.

I think I understand the disadvantages: fighting with weak HP totals (my biggest gripe about Haer'Dalis) makes her totally dependant on magical protection, less attacks per round, etc etc. The offensive spin is about the only thing a Blade has going for it over a Skald, with the bonuses and the one extra attack. IA's monsters probably wouldn't even be slowed down by a blade doing a defensive spin. Maybe I'm wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, being able to change an NPC's class is an earned right for seasoned BG players. Anyone who tries to claim this is cheating, is misguided in my opinion. Of course, as you point out, you need to make sure you're not breaking the game in some way by doing so. Ultimately, a player making such a change is little different than a modder making such a change, although the method of getting there tends to be different. Neither, in my opinion, are "cheating" by taking some liberties with character classes. You could accomplish basically the same thing by creating multiplayer characters, but of course this means that you miss out on the company of your beloved Bioware NPCs.

At the end of the day, you should create the party that you want, and if you can accomplish this with Bioware NPCs, perhaps with a little surgery, go for it.

If you ask me, you can always change other NPCs that don't need to be saved in spellhold. That way you're more certain to not mess up anything in particular (i.e. Sikret may have constructed a few scripts for sorceress imoen that would end up illogical or maybe bugged for non sorceress imoen).

About bards:

I think only blade is usable in IA now and even blades will be among unusable classes in v6.

Geh4th: Defensive spin is very usefull when combined with Stoneskin. Especially at the 1st half of the game. If you cast PfMW many enemies change target, so you cannot effectively tank them. Butt def. spin+Mirror Image+Blur+Stoneskin makes you to good tank. With offensive spin and *** in two handed style baldes can attack 6 times with Impr. Haste. It is a big difference compared to skald's 2 attacks... Don't count Belm, it has only +2 enchantment, so it is usless in most IA fights...

Because nobody answered your question i try it. The multi class characters no matter double or triple class start to gain HLA on highter xp level. The single and dual classed characters gain the first in the first level up after reach 3 million xp (in dual class i think the second class). The multi class character start to gain HLA after they reach around 4.4 million xp if i remember correctly, but they get HLA in level up of their all classes. Another important thing the triple classes don't acces the mage HLA's only the other too. I don't know this is fixed in IA or not but in the vanilla game that was true sadly.

Baldurdash fixes triple multiclass HLAS by making f/m/c and f/m/t being able to choose extra 6th, 7th and 8th level slot for mage spellbook. You don't get any other mage HLAs, but that's not that important anyway. Improved Alcatry would be nice, but others are a no no for multiclass IMO. Multiclasses don't get many HLAs in IA and you don't want to waste them.
I liked bards a lot before, but I think that berserker-mage dual is so much better because:
1)he needs no babysitting
2)gets a very nice thac0
3)attacks 6 times per round with imp.hate with a 2-handed weapon
4)learns and casts spells from any level
5)rocks during timestop
6)can get 18+ strenght from beginning
7)has a lot of hp, thus being not so vulnerable to power word spells

Bards are good, but for true late game power go multi f/m or f/i (even better IMO) or the above ber-mage dual.

The single and dual class characters start gaining HLAs with around 3,400,000 xp; the multi-class ones require 50% more xp, which means they start gaining HLAs with about 5,100,000 xp.

@geh4th

As for changing Imoen's class, feel free to do it. As long as you do it perfectly considering all of the legal requirements, it's not a probelem. You should be careful to erase all of her spells from her spellbook as well, because as a sorceress she could know those spells, but as a mage or bard, she has to work hard to find the scrolls of some of those spells. Changing her into an illegal character such as kitted multi-class thief/mage is cheating of course. I'm giving this permission only for Imoen here. Changing other NPCs' classes or kits may cause serious problems as you noted.

However, I don't agree with the general argument that since Sikret has done something, the player can undo it or do something similar in his game (without turning to be a cheater). When you agree to play IA, you agree to play the game in my created world and with my proposed rules. Changing the rules or the world's setup without asking me about them is cheating.

But in this particular case (= Imoen's case), you have my permission to change her to a bard if you want provided that you erase all of her known spells and consider all of the legal requirements regarding a bard's stats.

That's better than what I'd thought. I found in the ToB manual that it says that you have to reach a certain level (example Fighter-20 and Mage-18). I was afraid that this meant that a multiclass had to have reached the appropriate threshhold in each level to get any HLA at all (in other words, probably 6-7 million XP.)

What's the rationale for Multiclassed characters having to wait later to get HLA's? Isn't that sort of unfair, and an obvious advantage for a single class or dual classed character? I'd have thought it should be based on total experience, everyone getting HLA's more or less at the same time.

It makes me wonder if a multiclass PC can be competetive with any single/dual at high levels. I admit though, I'm not all that experienced with groups reaching high level (it's been quite a while for vanilla, and I haven't got that far in IA.)

G-

The rationale is that HLAs (= High Level Abilities) are abilities characters begin to learn because of their high levels. Multi-class characters need more xp to reach high levels. For them, high xp doesn't correspond with high level exactly in the way it does for single class characters.

Regarding the Imoen-to-Bard idea, thanks for the permission but I'm probably going to shelve it for now. I'll keep it as an option, but I've gone back to playing my Vagrant group and in THAT group she's gonna stay a sorceress.

This was all just an exercise in exploring player party balancing anyhow. My point was that if you're playing a Mage or (especially) a Sorcerer Protagonist, do you necessarily want or need Imoen to also be a sorceress? In some people's mind, the answer would likely be "no".

My reference to "Sikret had done it" was really intended to point out that it *seemed* like you wanted a non-mod sorcerer in the game (seeing as vanilla SoA doesn't have one and IA really NEEDS one) and figured Imoen was the best candidate for the job. I'm sure there was other factors involved as well in your actions and methods. I don't presume to know exactly why you do things as a designer.

I had a Skald in my Vagrant's party for all of the pre-spellhold time period, but had always intended that this slot go to Imoen once I get to spellhold. I didn't make a sorcerer NPC because I wanted to see what a Skald could do.

While I found him useful in the early game, I could see where it was going later: he wouldn't be very good as I moved on to higher-level situations. I'd have to say that I'm disappointed in Bards (as many have already pointed out.) The main problem with them is that they're not really good at anything, and in IA everyone has to have their defined role. You can't really afford to leave one member of the party basically out of action just to sing in many of the battles...while as a spellcaster he's not as good as any mage/sorcerer and as a fighter he can't keep up thanks to a lack of multiple attacks. Really the only things going for the class are UAI and that cool armor that they can get. Skald song (and later Enhanced Bard Song) are nice, but does it really make up for not having another fighter swinging 4-6 times per round or another mage with REAL spellcasting ability?

Some have elaborated on the advantages of a Blade over a Skald, as a "tank". I see their point, but I still can't see a justification for why a blade is better than other pure and multi-classed options. Sure, he can buff and then defensive spin, but that is again one less person swinging a weapon or one less person casting useful spells. I prefer my people to be doing more 'assertive' things in combat.

IMO Bards and their kits are already a weak class. I've read the debates on the plan to limit them to 5th level spells. I'd have to say that makes a weak class useless in my opinion, but as Sikret points out, it's his game and his vision of how things should be. Since I'm actually having trouble justifying a bard for one of my 6 precious PC slots NOW, you can bet that I won't find them any better being further limited. Of course, that is MY choice.

Well, I can buy that easy enough.

It just seems like that puts multiclassed characters at a 1.5 million XP disadvantage. It's kind of like someone failing a grade in school - you're always behind the curve once that happens.

Vagrant party update:

I backed up a little, I reloaded my 'before-going-to-spellhold' file and decided to do a bit more before leaving. I'd like to get Phosphorus forged before that trip. I've already got almost all I need for it.

I went off to kill the Shadow Dragon, which I found rather easy. I consider it to be a good thing that Sikret had mentioned that he's upgraded the fight. Does the dragon still level-drain and/or use a breath weapon? I never saw any such thing (my party isn't complaining, but it made me wonder.)

I also took down Firekraag, basically the same situation. Again, I found him easy (maybe even easier) and again, no breath weapon. I guess he had better things to do than to try to broil me. I did have fire protection on the whole party though, and he never got around to doing the dreaded 'remove magic' on everyone.

It strikes me that both dragons could use a lot more hit points and be more agressive with their breath weapons. It's kind of odd that I'm more scared of the typical human mage than a dragon.

My protagonist is still more than 200,000 XP from 15th level, and I know how much XP I got in my aborted first run through Brynnlaw. I'm looking for a bit more gold and one more permanency scroll, so I'll still mess around a few more days before leaving. I've just got to figure out who might be likely to have one of the darned things...

G-

Check my "Started a v5 game" topic to see which battles I have found easier than intended and have improved them further. All dragons are in the list.

Well that seems appropriate actually. Those who choose to have 2 or 3 majors in college generally take longer to graduate. But in this case, this is a college that these guys are enrolled in over the course of their adventuring lifetime. I always thought it odd that a MC warrior-mage could learn the specialized moves of a truly expert warrior, before he/she was a truly expert warrior herself.

@ Sikret:

I knew you're improving dragons, I've read most of that thread and read your v6 progress thread regularly. I just found it amusing/ironic that plain ol' mages are more scary, as I commented.

I assume that they DO have their breath weapons, but due to situation/scripting/whatever, they just never got around to using them on me. Would that be accurate?



@Marceror:

You make a very good point when you phrase it that way.

Yes, your characters were probably buffed and immune and they didn't find valid targets and thus gave priority to removing your protections first. They also certainly have actions with higher priority (than using their breath weapons) to perform (such as renewing their own defences, casting their powerful offensive spells, etc).

I also forgot to mention that following the idea of HLAs relating to high levels (rather than high xp) to its natural consequences and its full calibre, triple-class characters will need even more xp than double-class characters to start gaining HLAs in IA v6.

They did indeed spend a lot of effort in dispelling my protections and renewing theirs (which I was dispelling as fast as they put them up.)

It's amazing how much easier it becomes to do that once your mages hit that magical 14th level...

Well, despite my recent success against the dragons and being 'that far' from spellhold, I've decided to change course here.

Inspired by Ryel's "reloaded" thread and by Sikret's "cheat and cheese" article, I re-examined my game load to see what could be considered cheesy. While the other mods I had installed are not explicitly incompatible with IA 5.0 (such as Dungeon Crawl and various NPC's) I realized that the content that they added - particularly items - are.

I know that some would advocate doing a quest from a mod and simply walking away from any potentially imbalancing items, but I just can't bring myself to drop a, say, ring of regeneration on the ground and walk away. I'll always know what I COULD have had and it would eat at me. Better to not install the mod that added it into the game at all, I think. Plus, avoiding "maybe" mods avoids potential bugs, some of which I had indeed seen.

So, I've decided to totally wipe and reload. I've installed only the basics with IA 5.0, plus a select handful of specifically authorized mods: Dungeon-be-gone, Tower of Deception, and The Four. I plan to sell any items I find in ToD (well, I'll probably keep potions and scroll

I'm restarting my game with this format, using my same Vagrant and a more-or-less similar party. We'll see how that goes.

Finally, again inspired by Ryel's posts, I plan to chronicle my adventure in detail. I hope to make a readable and entertaining walkthrough/story. Again, we'll see how it goes.

Stay tuned.

Geh4th