I thought that with Vlad's 694 patch, the other Bioware mages can be used to take the Halruaa tests, so it is not so restricted for the PC to be a mage. It is a lot more fun as a kensai dual mage. That is my favorite for NeJ.

I usually do Ok with rest. I can usaully maximize my spells usage down to the last spell so-to-speak. But when those are gone, you do need to rest......AND THAT.., is when I run into the unending spawning of creatures that won't let me get any shut eye. So what I'll do is keep fighting them until my dudes are all bloodied up to near max then save and then search for a safer bed!

By this time though I need to sleep twice. Once for heal spells and then again to have them available again for the next stage. But it's also costly on the arrow quota,,,,,hint hint!

Not that I know of. If you try it, let me know.

Drop the bag into a river, btw.

I don't get it

Sorry, it was a reply to the "how to deal with a vampire" quiz earlier.

Ohhh, I failed that quiz.

Yes but who's gonna throw the vamp in the river or for that matter, the Myst? lol.

OK took a break but came back and played last night.

Level 2 Dragonseye.

Cave Trolls = Ok I wanted to test the extent of the changes Vlad had done so what did I do? I summoned a nice demon to fight the , and get this, cave trolls. Guess who won? THAT my freinds in very poor game balance. WHY? because the creature in question, i order just "TO HIT IT" requires a plus 3 weapon. Cave trolls do not have this equivalency, in fact they are only considered +1 to hit ability.

Next. Severe inate abilities boosted coupled with a decreased thaco, makes you troll fodder! Don't let them touch you! Next,, ONLY acid kills them (the only part of the actual power these trolls keep, and is a problem on it's own when you don't posses quess what?

Vlad, and others. I am the first person to say thank for a job well done, but I am also going to be the first person to tell you if you dropped the ball. It is now to the point IMHO that this game ,,,,No longer has virtualy NOTHING to do with Dungeons and Dragons andin essence you have completely removed and disregarded core AD&D rules set!.

Sorry. I'm not enjoying it as much as I hoped I would.Sure I like strollingthrough the caverns and fighting creatures, but remeber what you have done here. You have in essence removed "completely" the simple effectiveness of even a simple fighter. I mean what good is a fighter when every creature he faces is going to tear him a new arse right in the middle of his forehead? Either there was something wrong with my install, or you went overballance overkill?

perhalps my frusration won't be appreciated, but if you wanted a TRUE PROFFESIONAL opinion on your work, then I would have to tell you to go back to the drawing board with this one! This is not, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons..........sorry VLAD, nothing personal!

But I'm still going to play it, because I'm desperate to continue playing this game. Keep in mind though, right now it's the ONLY reason why I would! Sometimes there is nothing worse than being stubborn!

BTW, I take no joy in responding in the way noted above or below!

Perhaps it's because My knowlege allows me the ability to see when things are wrong. Keep in mind my characters are only 10th level, and I used a scroll to summon the Baetazu. Trolls are not even supposed to be able to even "Hit" a Baetazu. There are very good reasons for game balance. Simply put, it makes it much more enjoyable, and if you do not agree with this, then you are in the minority, despite what people may think of this post on THIS board. I didn't want to say anything, but I also felt I had a responsibility to give my honest opinion. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad though right! At least I'm not being insulting and calling people names etc. I am giving you the opinion of someone with LOTS of knowledge of AD&D rules.

Seriously,,, a Baetazu lost to a cave troll......Give me a break! A Baetazu CANNOT lose to a mere cave troll, otherwise, he woudn't be a Baetazu! Worse still a Baetazu can kill a troll without use of acid/fire AND they have the ability to controll them as well! A baetazu's power resides in his abiltiy to controll creatures and also because they are +3 required to hit. Not to mention their inate spells and immunities!

Wrong, wrong, wrong! (shaking head)!

I hope you can handle a little negative critcism. At least it plays nice.

You'll get a kick out of playing, trying to play, IA given your comments about Nej, Bereth.



If the bag of holding is on the vampire, wait for him to insta regenerate and then grab/steal/rip away/use a spell to obtain the bag of holding.

If the bag is somewhere else and he uses his mist form to get there, then do a running battle to get to the objective, which is the bag. Besides, unless he has put his coffin inside the bag of holding, you can kill him by reaching the coffin. Even if the coffin is inside the bag of holding, all you need to do is to fight until day break.

As a battle of pure endurance, it is not much different from trying to sleep in Nej2's dungeon areas.

Modders almost never change the vanilla creature game summons, for whatever reason. So when their battles are more difficult and their custom monsters are such and such, the vanilla summons like the demons then become extremely weak in comparison.

Bereth,
Why don't you create a tactics mod for everyone to install and call it "Bereth's super-tweaky-battle-script-creature-pure AD&D-by the books-exactly as the books say" mod? Since a lot of time goes into writing the storyline, characters, romances, areas, items, new creatures, maybe some precise stats weren't the main concern? That is just a guess on my part in Vlad's defense.

And I have to add, if you don't like this mod just don't play it. It's simple, as Vlad said...

I think Bereth is big D&D fan, who would like to see all rules to be followed in the various implementations. When it's not perfect or nearly perfect, it disturbs him.

Bereth, while I'm known to be strict regarding mod quality and design, my approach in respect of rules & balance is quite liberal. My two principles:

1. Creativity and imagination has no limits, and no attempts should be made to limit them in a restrictive way. Each mod author can decide what world, context, environment he/she would like to use. If one of his/her goals is to make an enjoyable mod for players, then -- from the viewpoint of players and critics -- this is the primary thing that matters, and others are secondary. If there are players who like the mod the way it is, then the goal was achieved.
2. A mod should be consistent, balanced in its own "world". For example, if the goal isn't to make a BG2 mod that conforms with AD&D as far as possible, then it doesn't have to be built up in that way. In other words, my second principle prefers relativeness to absolute approach. Consistency inside its own world and concept, and possibly in the game's world.

If you say this about NEJ, then you certainly haven't played my Grey Clan Episode One mod yet.

Unlike many others (such as you or BWL's Council Member, Vlasák), I know very little about AD&D. I know BG2 isn't a "perfect" implementation, but I even have problems with fundemental things (such as Mindflayers and other similar stuff). So I don't know AD&D, I look at Baldur's Gate (especially BG1, my favourite) as a game which brings to a world with mythological/medieval features.

I've never criticized a mod based on how it does or doesn't conform with any kind of rules (AD&D or not), and I usually find such debates childish (unless all participants profess the same view, and e.g. they disagree in certain points). When someone says Grey Clan has "wonderfully" unbalanced battles, or that Improved Anvil is "overpowered", the person who says this is under the influence of his or her own notion of balance. So I don't blame anyone, though when the person just can't realize the aformentioned fact (i.e. that different people have different definitions and notions about things) and believes he/she is so clever, then it bcomes laughable.

Of course, I didn't mean to discourage you from sharing your criticism in the present topic -- I just tried to present an aspect that might be new to you.

Heh yeah I am not a big D&D rules guy either but I guess mod authors could sidestep this issue and call a cave troll (in this instance) a super cave troll, veteran cave troll, scaled cave troll, or some such just to differentiate that this guy is a some sort of badass.

I will say it again that BG1 and BG2 were based on AD&D rules. Maybe they came close but creating a world of interactive NPC's, mythology (like Baronius said), music, areas, romances, banters and a full developed storyline made it a much different atmosphere than pure AD&D rules where if someone died, the person playing the cleric spends the rest of the night crying in the kitchen

I think that the main goal of modders (non-tactical mods) is to add to that environment that BG 1 and 2 gave to us. If they make enemies a little "off the books", that is an aesthetic choice.
I have heard all of this before in posts by you (=Bereth) about other mods (you know exactly which mod I am talking about ), so I will not post in this topic anymore.

Guys,,, understand something. A Baetazu losing to a cave troll is NOT, just a little off the wall. In fact it's equal to a 4 year old beating the snot out of Arnold S. (in under 30 seconds). Your inability to recognize this speaks Volumes of your own knowledge of D&D and it's rules and respect for the need of game balance. This is all I'm trying to say. If you want idea's I would certainly be happy to give you more than enough that would fill this board for months. All of them would be balanced and very, very difficult for most.

It's not that I DON'T like the game! If I didn't, I wouldn't be playing it. But like I said if I find SEVERE inconsistencies as above then would I/should I make note of it? I thought you guys were open minded AND grown up enough to take some critcism? I thought you wanted to make this (considering the effort put into it) the best mods available?
Don't you?

I placed the scenario with the vampire on here for example to give you a perfect example of what can be done within the games limtis and would BAFFLE you all. I have more tricks up my sleve than you could imagine. I have offered for years my input for ideas but this is more about ego than creating a sound game for EVERYONE and not just a select few.
Was this not your goal in the first place? My point is, if your prepared to completely alter game balance in an attempt to increase difficulty are you not in essence also willing to alter the entire rule setting and thus eliminating the very concept the game was built on?

I KNOW the effort put forward, but all I am suggesting is improvements that makes sence. There is extreme difficulty in base D&D without having to alter a thing. Please understand these are not personal attacks nor am I not appreciative of all the modding efforts, but I think it's time to say calm down a little and listen to reason. You can still make these mods the best ever done.
Is that not what you want. I am more than prepared to help create this within the games scope. The only modding at this point that would be required is Creature files and a few icon additions.

Please don't take it personaly, I still love all the efforts and everyone!

I did not take any offense. you probably have a good point, I know nothing of D&D outside of bg.
but does Baetazu's have levels or are they merely born tough as nails?

ya know if you do have a lot of knowledge of D&D would you/could you put together something like
PC / level__________Vs._________ (balanced) Creatures (probably start with only existing ie cre.)

that would prove useful in many instances. cause going up against gnolls at lvl 5+ is just annoying

No problem Bereth


Perhaps because many of us don't care so much about AD&D conformance? Come on, try to realize we don't take it so seriously.

In case you have ignored my previous post, here is something that follows from that post: mods that players enjoy can be made without strict AD&D rules...
OK you don't enjoy it in such a case and you have right to tell your criticism, but it's you... and perhaps some other players... The mod download statistics don't reflect that it would be a disliked mod...

You should understand that others might have (slightly) different approach than you, so either you can make an own mod, or offer advice on various mod subforums (which is welcome, but obviously, authors might not agree in everything).

I personally played AD&D 2nd edition for many years and have read dozens of the books. That being said, most of the books, barring the Player's Handbook are meant as guides and tools. They are by no means set in stone. They are just there so DMs (such as Vlad) don't have to waste so much time.

Why can't a Troll defeat a Baatezu? I personally don't use the Summon Fiend scroll or whatever, but seeing as Vlad is the DM, he basically controls what happens. Maybe every time a fiend is summoned, it is a lowly Spinagon. The main point is, there really is no reason why a Troll wouldn't be a bad ass. Maybe these are higher evolved trolls. Maybe these trolls have the blood of the Troll God, "Trollz0r the Pwnz0r" coursing through their veins. Maybe they are ROBOT TROLLS! I know this sounds stupid, but it could be true because thats how AD&D is. If I ever said to my DM (PnP), "Hey, I'm level 10, I SHOULD BE DOMINATING THESE TROLLS FOR FREE" He'd say "The door is over there!". The whole reason you don't copy the Monstrous Compendiums word for word is so your players can't just memorize stats and know what to expect.

If anything, the only thing out of place in my eyes is the experience values. Considering the strength of the monsters, higher experience would typically be rewarded. However, if Vlad did that, then everyone would level too fast... thus by keeping the current values, he balanced the game. So yeah, I'd say the game is balanced pretty well. I'd hate to have to SK my levels down once I get back to CI.

As Baronius said, all that matters is if people like the mod. Well, I can't speak for others, but I personally had a blast playing NEJ, and I can't wait for Lower Dorn's Deep and the rest of the mod.

Absolutely would love to help in any way.
Regarding your other question about leveling for demon kind, they actualy have a ranking system on there own besides that found in the Monster Manual. The demon Hierarchy is extreamly precise and even more so than angels and arch angels.


Example;


PC / level11 th level PCVs.Baetazu(balanced) is unbalanced. Remember also a +3 weapon is needed just to start. Also, fear comes into effect so mind protection spells are VERY needed.

PC / level13 th level PCVs.Baetazu is a tough fight and the PC will still probably die a sick death but at least by this level he could hurt it. Keep in mind all Baetazu are NEVER alone and will always have minions around them. At least 4 characters at this level would be needed.
(remember the planar sphere, you had 6 characters at this level or higher, which is why you might have found the battles a little easier)

cool. Do you have any web publishing experience (if not word or spreadsheet) cause (and this might be a huge amount of work if you decide to take it on) if you could make web page that would list creatures/ optimal encounter level with PC or (this might be the easiest) just creatures that you would not want to face until level......
something like:

Level || Creatures
1 || cre1, cre2*, cre3, ect.
*notes (Keep in mind all 'Cre.2' are .......)

Level || Creatures
2 || cre1, cre2, cre3, ect.
*notes

Sounds like a good Idea. I'll tell you what, I can create either a topic here and have it pinned. I will call it "Ask the DM" and in there people (modders) can ask questions as to what type of creatures items could be placed. For every question rest assured I can give an answer. I promise to give precise and accurate answers to any.

I don't think creating a web site would have the same effect. At least here the information would be more accessible and not too much of a bother for anyone. In regards to "The Battles" I can promise you this. One of the reasons why AD&D 2nd edition was so popular was because of the system. Bioware made some battles tough this is true, but they also wanted to make sure the each battle was very winnable in order to call it a video game. I can come up with scenarios that will baffle and confound. Scripting the clues will be up to the modders but it can be simply done with adding a last comment like "and remember, if you insist on facing this creature, obtain this item first" or something to this effect so it is not as time consuming for the modders. (see I am considerate).

Keep in mind my forte isn't in programming but I do know how programs works and somewhat of how implementable and Integrateable/Interchangeable IE is towards these accurate ends. All I can do is promise to give the best probable course of action toward this end. I've been around enough to know by now. (since Teambg's beggining).

How does this sound? Besides everyone needs someone they can go to for answers. Even the modders.



Any questions at all! :-)

For example:

If you thought Baetazu were tough before, what would you say to a greater Baetazu gating in up to two other lesser Baetazu on the second round.......2x/day? (something they can and very often do)!

MMMMMWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA

Here is an online 2nd edition monstrous manual lookup for ALL of the creatures found within Baldur's Gate's three installments. Sure it's a lot of reading, lol, but simply doing a "find, search" on the page will bring up a creatures stats and ecologies etc. on the page. Luckily though, you have me here so I can save you some time. Almost all of the printed book is here!

http://www.seads.org/TSR/monbk.htm


It's beggings were humble at the start

http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/Images/MMcover.gif

I would tend to disagree about the web page, I personally don't like to ask questions if I can find the answers myself.
However, maybe a combination of the 2: if you can use a spreadsheet keep the info on it make it down loadable and update it when new questions/answers come.
you could keep it in a topic in the first post. I would also keep the topic a bit more specific.
I would think that pinning it w/o any actual database would be kind of a waste. Pinned topics are needed for important easy to find resources. no offense meant.

Yes they are interchangeable but the true ability of keeping a balanced game within scope of practical playability is not to be done by taking away a PC actual ability or in the rendering of him as useless. For example, a spell works like this (*), so it should always remain like this (*), but it isn't cool to take away a spells ability because you just want to thus making the spell work like this (^). There are reasons why spells have powers at certain levels (ie lesser vs greater) and it all works into the game balance. You wouldn't for example create the "WISH" spell with the same power and ability and then call it a third level spell now would you? So, why would you implace an unbalanced creature against another who in all respects could not (with it's own abilities in respect) hope to defeat the said creature unless a "TRICK" was needed. Again, this is what is being done. It translates into a non compatible or non-conformant AD&D experience. If you have the background and have had the experience then you would also recognize the need for the balance.

Make no mistake, AD&D 2nd edition was a SOLID system, and VERY balanced. It was the most played game in history and for good reason. Serious players got to know the system so well, that if any unbalanced inconsistencies arose they would recognize and question the DM. Then the PC would scramble to figure it out.

As for your question



1st)Trolls only have or are considered to be able to hit +1 required to hit creatures (all works into game balance)
2nd) Trolls would be instantly enthralled and then controlled. Mere appearance of this creature would cause the troll to bolt (ie no chance to win) or serve it!
3rd)Even lesser Baetazu are +2 required to hit
4th) Same applies to the Taran'ri (Baetazu's natural enemy)
5th) Can you recreate a new creature? Sure you can, but you need to keep it in respect of the ecology of the creature. ie. there will probably be only one of them due to the intellect of a troll (almost mindless creatures often controll by beholders and other undead creatures like Liches), but they are completely territorial and despise being controlled (Nalia's dungeon should be your clue, ie. there was only one).

Bioware had access to someone who could guide them in delivering the implementations. Are you saying the modders here don't need one when the creators of the game insisted upon it? Keep in mind were now talking about the original game everyone loved so much!

You wouldn't let a +1 sword strike the dragons found (existing) in the game now would you? Why would this be? Because it would diminish the dragons power and level now wouldn't it, thus "The Balance" and it's need? It's the exact same reason why a troll could not hope to win against the Baetazu.

Same thing goes for Liches etc. etc etc.

Yous say things weren't written in stone! I say, (and so did the writers of the said books) it was suggested they were meant to be completely understood before alterations were made thus you could balance your own alterations, thus creating a system of continued balance. There were far more pieces of material created for AD&D 2nd Edition than any other game system ever made, and it was done so by implementations of the above standards!

After a while, creating creatures and items become natural, thus once you grasp the system your creations make more sense and keeps to the existing system. It all works smoothly. It also lets you know what can be and cannot be done in the mind of the player. You have to be higher than 9th level just to face an adult dragon to even speak to it otherwise you'll just bolt at it's mere sight!

PS.... same goes for Thaco's BTW.

I understand your feelings completely, just bare with my explanations, you will see were on the same side. It's only HELP that I'm offering.
As per the comments of not wanting to go word for word. Do not fret, just because abilities of creatures are written somewhere does not mean you can predict the outcome of a battle.. lol. That is why saving throws are made etc etc. There are hundreds of ways battles can be won and lost! Every Player knows that battle with a dragon could easily mean his death even at very high levels.

I like Sir-Kill's request about the balances verses PC level and Creature level. Please do more as if I create a mod, I want it to follow the balance structure more and also create new creatures (not just new names for existing ones) I think I have the 2nd ed. monster manual as well as a lot of the FR campaign books. I am just not a pure AD&D player so I don't know much about balance of creatures in the game structure.

Yeah, I lied when I said I wouldn't post anymore.

Gotcha !

+1 swords work just fine against every dragon in the (unmodded) game. So do normal swords, in fact.

In general I think you might be surprised at just how many liberties the designers of BG2 took with the AD&D ruleset, if you look "under the hood" of the game. But amusingly, this isn't one of them: 2nd edition dragons don't have weapon immunities either.

Because there is no Dungeon Master to continually tweak things in a BG2 game, the game must then be balanced so that the monsters you summon aren't more powerful than your entire party. If you can summon a demon from a scroll, without even being high enough level to cast that spell from memorization tables, then the game would become unbalanced if that demon was invulnerable to the enemies that your current party can take on.

You must then now remove all summon fiend or demon scrolls, but you can't make scrolls require a specific level to cast, since that is ingame engine limitations.

BG2's gameplay is very linear and any mod creator must take that into account. There is only so much that can be done with exceptional circumstances via scripts, areas, and new creature dialogs. So unlike in AD and D table top, you just can't have the Dungeon Master give a dynamic choice to the party of "cast summon demon" or "don't take the risk" or "stealthily avoid/negotiate the monsters while acquiring the same xp value". The party's going to be killing monsters and if you give them the capability to summon a demon immune to +3 weapons, then they're going to use it and exploit that advantage. Then every other creature further along then must be upgraded in order to then challenge the party and their power.

Nej2, the crypt and dragon's eye, are very much like dungeon crawls in which you have to use every resource at your disposal to personally attack and destroy numerous enemies. But it would take an extraordinary amount of effort simply to provide a one time cast of a one time spell for a one time encounter. It is both much more convenient and faster to lower the power of player party summoned monsters.

There will always be the problem of, if you give the player a special spell for this area, of how to prevent him from using it in another part of the area against other enemies.

Improved Anvil is very though about that kind of game balance, but it also requires a lot of work and time spent. Whether any particular modder will decide to spend that time tweaking things to both fit the game balance as well as your preferences, Bereth, is obviously not set in stone.

<B>Because it would diminish the dragons power and level now wouldn't it</b>

There are various different ways to ensure that dragons are more difficult of an enemy to defeat than other lesser creatures. Increased damage immunities, spell applications, spell immunities, summoned guards, as well as various high strength attacks can dramatically increase the ability of a dragon to take on entire armies of lesser creatures. And of course, creatures immune to +3 magic weapons can only be dealt with, in the game, by acquiring +4 or greater weapons. If you are not at the point in the game where you can acquire said weapons or can't find a +4 weapon that you have 5 proficiencyes or 2 proficiencies in, then you have not just "balanced" the dragon, you have made the dragon undefeatable except by spells.

Changing the weapon immunities of creatures would then require that you change the entire balance of the rest of the game. You have to add in +4 weapons earlier than intended or have make it so that parties that don't have +4 weapons can't defeat the dragon. If you add in +4 weapons, then all your other creatures not immune to +3 weapons just got a little bit weaker.

In the final end tally, what is the overall and general theme, point, and philosophy behind making a Baatezu immune to certain enchanted weapons of a low enough grade? How will that, in fact, improve the player experience? Did you use the scroll expecting the Baatezu to slaughter your enemies? But you must have known that vanilla summoned creatures were barely adequate for BG2's enemies. Vlad would have to totally convert vanilla summoning spells to make them useful against Nej2's improved enemies.

Sikret did convert some spells in vanilla to be better in harmony with Improved Anvil, but in the end, it is still never as easy as simply ensuring that a baatezu can defeat a cave troll. Bereth.

I nderstand what you are say above but like the comment above, this isn't a limitation, this is a "core rule" that was imposed into the game. You can upgrade creatures as I said even within the limitations of the game. Keep in mind placing treasure (as with the scroll I tried to use) is also part of game balance. It all works into each other. With all the mods, cheats and fixes people over the years have enjoyed I have noticed people are of these three minds:

1)They either want to be able to Easily crush anything so they don't care if there characters are over balanced

or

2)They wan't the challenges so difficult then when they finaly figure it out they feel better about themselves.

or

3) They prefer a perfect balance of difficulty and ease.


Even with the creatures found withing the core game, there are more than enough of them to create extreamly difficult battles. Modders need to not just hand out 9th lvl spells or +5 swords like they were candy. Too many modders and players want there cake and eat it to, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to hand out the candy and then render them useless now does it?

This is the essence of why 2nd edition was created a very long time ago. I have to say Ymarsakar, that your wrong about a lot of the things your concluding. Just because you give something out doesn't mean you have to downgrade or upgrade anything. The system is perfect as it is, you just need to understand it better and how to balance it all out.

Treasure, spells, traps, scenarios, length of journey (between sleep), many small battles, one large battle, monsters, PC generation, NPC generation, magic items, artifacts, etc etc etc must all fit into the balance of the game or there will be no system to rely upon. Nothing is making sence. in essence your creating something with No Rules at all, just a shim sham of "anything goes". Upredictabilty doesn't equalize difficulty. Just look at the vampire situation I gave in the other post (completely implementable within the games limitations by the way). Just how long would that have taken any of you to figure out?. You would have fought well but also would have died unless you figured it out, no matter how hard or well you fought.

If I cannot convince you with this example, than I don't think I can. If you think you've thought of a lot of scenarios yourself and that you've seen it all, think again. BG is only JUST scratching the surface of the capabilities the games engine and original material can generate!

Another example:

Beholders are leathal true but did you know they are often employed to watch over dragon hordes. Ever try fighting both at the same time?

Liches are Lords of the undead and store there essence into receptacles thus they are very difficult to actualy kill. Have it so any lich posses this and these things must be destroyed in rder to actualy kill him. During the trip/transport of this said device (by the way, you can give many items to choose from but only one will be the receptacle *you see, I told you I'm evil*), of course you realize he will pay you another visit right.. or two...........WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAhaHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA..

Trust me. I could create a balanced a game that would anhialate your entire party 9 times out of ten all based on your own experience and knowledge, all based on "Core rules". Been doing it for years.

You don't need to alter much, or unbalance the game outside of core rules to give you the fight of your life!

I beg your pardon, your not just a little wrong, your 1000% wrong. Tell you what, why don't you walk up to mr Shadow dragon and try scratching his scales with that +1 sword of yours..(yes I mean in the game,, hey use shadowkeeper and give it a go. I'll start laughing now and you can tell me after you get frustrated how many times you died before you figured out how very wrong you were).

WAAYY too funny. You might kill him with laughter!

Dragons immunties are based on there age. Great wyrms are +5 required to hit and can do enormous damage in a large area of effect.

Anytime you want me to quote the books in questions bud you just say so. You haven't the foggiest idea what your talking about, either that or this was one of the best jokes on this board like,,,,,,,, ever!

He's vulnerable to +1 and even normal weapons. He just casts Protection From Magic Weapons to start the battle. Oh, and (IWD1/ future NeJ spoiler)
SPOILER!


[attachment=2974:weapons_Vs_dragons.JPG]

Bereth, I still don't understand how the scenario with the vampire you gave even comes close to anything in the BG video game. Not one vampire was that involved in such a scenario to kill. Yes of course in a Pen and Paper play those scenarios are likely and more mentally challenging. BG 1 or 2 had no such tactic or strategy so I don't see the relationship at the time you gave it and every time you refer to it. Regardless of whether I answered it or not, there is no relation.

Your point about Liches and their phylacteries or whatever is another example of stuff that never appeared in BG 1 or 2 or if so, please site an example from the vanilla BG games. Where is that balance? Balance is shifted in the player(s) favor to have a better chance at winning and completing the game ina video game setting.

Beholders guarding dragons hoards or both together you say in D&D. Interesting scenario and your knowledge of the D&D setting 2nd ed. is profound, so kudos to that. Please site the example in BG1 or 2 where this takes place. I know, Windspear Hills with the Director crammed in that little hole before Samia? How balanced was that? By the rules? yes I would say so. Balanced? absolutley not. Or where are the beholders together with dragons in the vanilla game?

You have already proved to us that the BG games are based on the rules of D&D and favor the player. Not every mod or modder wants to create awesome scenarios like you describe where it takes an hour to do one battle. That is the preference of the modder and you must accept that. Saying that they are way off by the rules is an opinion and they might not care about that so much.

We still love you Bereth!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

The Shadow Dragon must be dying of laughter then because The Bigg just tickled him with a normal dagger. Tickle, tickle. tickle!

SPOILER!

Well, not in the version of 2nd edition I own, but life is far too short to go around arguing about what's in an RPG ruleset, so I'm quite prepared to concede that there were multiple printings/errata or some relevant extra sourcebook or whatever.

DavidW,

That's the smartest thing I have read on any of the BG boards in a long while!

Hear Hear!!!

The sun and moon will still be there every day and night regardless of RPG rule books. So turn that frown upside down!

That´s another reason to put it all together, just like Sir-Kill asked before, I guess. Btw, if you can´t glue it together, I can make a simple webpage, just send me notes, let´s say in .txt form... It can´t be easier...

1) I see no reason why a Troll couldn't have +2, or whatever the DM wished. Again, the books are not meant to be followed word for word because certain players memorize stats and it ruins the game because they already "know" what should be what. Trolls could be intelligent, they could have +2 hands, they could have flamethrowers, it all depends on the DM and the game they are playing.

2 & 3) However, if we want to be rules lawyers, Lesser Baatezu do not have these properties. Barbazu, Abishai, Eriynes, Spinagons for example, all have either no magical weapon requirements or +1. This is according to the Planescape: Monstrous Compendium Appendix. One might say that BG2 is mainly "Forgotten Realms" but there were many Planescape references in the game and Planescape would have the most in-depth info on the Lower Planar creatures.

4) Didn't bother to read the stats for Tanar'ri.

5) As explained in #1, I see no reason why a Troll couldn't be an intelligent force to be reckoned with in a particular setting. An ancient tribe of intelligent Trolls that finally decided to expand their territories is not an "unrealistic" campaign setting imo.

In the end, it sounds like you are a rules lawyer. This is probably due to the fact that you probably did alot of DM work also. That being said I'm positive you understand why a DM would change the properties of the creatures. This whole thread is a perfect example of why Vlad made the game the way it is. When you zoned into Dragon's Eye you saw the Lizard Men and immediately thought, "Time to whoop some Lizard Man ass" since you "know" how strong a lizard man should be. Well, Vlad threw you a curve ball and guess what... they aren't push overs. That imo is a perfect example of good DMing. Surprising the players while still keeping the game playable. (Which it is)

You could argue endlessly on why Lizard Men and Trolls "shouldn't" be as strong as they are. However you could also argue why they should. This is because in AD&D 2ndEd, the DM can do whatever he or she wants.

Be carefull now, do not get confused between 3rd edition rules and 2nd edition rules. They are ntohing like each other. You miss the point about the Trolls. Balance is the point. I even said sure upgrade the troll if you wish but instead EVERY troll ahs been upgaraded, and this is not balanced. I have three fighters in my party for instance, but they are USELESS agains't these creatures that have been given vast improvements. In reality the DM for example has rendered my fighters as useless attackes who stand there to take the punishment but can hardly deliver any themselves!

What is happening is you guys are confusing DM discretion and complete game alteration.

The scenarios I have given are totaly implementable within the games scope. I am suggesting that these changes can be done with the games tools and boundaries. I am going to be picking up my Monsterous Manual this weekend, so I will scan it for your specifications as for the page. Do not try to tell me there is no + required to hit on dragons, don't even go there!. In the core game this was set (even if it was implented only by immunity to weapons within the games scope). You are cunfusing what is in the game vs the actual core rules.
Even vampires in the game now are +1 required to hit. Give it a go you will see.

Your right though, the DM "can" do whatever he/she wants. But in reply you also have to take into consideration if the DM wants that bunch of players to EVER want to play with him again.


You see, if you tried to pull your aproach to your game, you will only play it once with those players! What is the point of having a system if your not going to use it,, at all! Your choosing to only consider your own point of view and are utterly refusing to see my point!


The changes do not make any sense are are irratic in there construct. "Every battle" is not supposed to be as rediculously difficult as Vlad has made it. I'm sorry but your wrong about it being fun. It's not. Nor do well over 200 000 major fans of this game that refuse to even try yet another overbalanced game by anyone. This only appeals to a select few of the vast amount of fans.

This doesn't make sense, and you are thinking only in that it is a video game, and what you are saying is that D&D rules don't matter at all.

As far as your + required to hit points above, prove it! You can't ! Rather, I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are VERY wrong. Extremely wrong in fact and I haven't the foggiest clue what system you are talking about. I think you misread what you were reading! Go back and read it again!

using 'CAPPS' and '!!!' is considered shouting therefor rude please calm down and stop saying that people are 'very wrong' where a simple 'I believe you are wrong' would work just fine

Sure, some dragons cast protection spells, as TheBigg pointed out. But I don't think any actually cast spells that make them immune to normal weapons (certainly the shadow dragon doesn't; it's immune to magical weapons but not to normal ones).




It varies, actually. The weakest ones are affected by normal weapons (Ulvaryl in the starting dungeon, for instance); the strongest need +3 weapons to hit. (As I recall, the 2nd edition rule is a flat +2).

I'm not trying to make any particularly deep point here. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a game that adheres strictly to the 2nd edition AD&D core rules. But BG2 isn't such a game. It takes the 2nd edition rules as a starting point and then feels pretty free to muck with them for the sake of overall balance and gameplay. Which, come to think of it, is what I normally do when I do PnP roleplaying games.

Actually, I think there are two points being mixed up here:

(i) strict adherence to the letter of the AD&D ruleset.
(ii) adherence to the flavour of the FR setting.

And really, I think your point is stronger with respect to (ii) than to (i). Replacing all the trolls with by-the-book, totally-legal 25th level wizards wouldn't exactly help, after all.

As explained earlier, the system is in place as a guide for the DM. It is stated in numerous AD&D 2ndEd books, time and time again, that everything is at the discretion of the DM. Again, nothing is set in stone. The Monster Manuals help tremendously when helping create a campaign and, if the DM so chooses, can copy the monster in the book word for word so he/she can concentrate on other factors, such as storyline. However, if the DM wants to alter the stats of a monster, it is well within the system of the game (AD&D 2ndEd) to accommodate to those changes.

What if a DM wanted to run a "Planet of the Apes" style campaign, where Trolls are the dominate race on the planet and humans are the slaves/savages? Is this idea complete blasphemy? Is AD&D not meant to have a campaign such as this?

It not that anyone here doesn't understand your point. I'm sure everyone here does know what you are saying. I personally can understand why you might think Trolls shouldn't be as strong as they are because the books do have their stats listed and numbered. However, this topic is being beat to the ground because you are basically saying that Vlad "shouldn't" have made his campaign they way it is. You bring up numerous PnP AD&D 2ndEd issues to back up your arguments, yet you leave out the number one thing that literally defines AD&D. AD&D is not meant to be followed word for word. AD&D is extremely customizable and flexible, and all the books all the modules are not meant to restrict the DM from doing whatever he or she wants.

No offense to you, as I'm sure if we ever met in person we'd get along great due to similar interests. However, it sounds to me that you are the one refusing to see everyone else's points.

(Face in hands, shaking my head no)

It is very obvious a lot of you cannot think beyong the fact that this entire core game is based on the core rules of AD&D second edition rules. I'll say it again, Core Rules, and even the configuration options in both BG and SOA and ToB all have this setting.

Many of you wouldn't know what "Balance" meant if it walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts, because it takes YEARS (oh my I yelled, sorry), to learn through direct experience. It's not a matter of opinion as many of you think, it's a matter of fact. Think about it this way.

Balance itself insinuates a common groung, a system of regularity, based on an expected thing. There are stronger vs stronger and weaker vs weaker. This is the meaning of balance found within AD&D. The Guide books do not say "hey after reading this book thoroughly, just go ahead and do what you want anyway! It instead states that it STRONGLY recomends a good understanding of the system in order to make alterations that make sense for playability and enjoyment for all.

What you don't realize is that DM's like myself who have been doing this for 25 years long before Baldurs Gate ever came around, have created thousands upon thousands of creatures add-ons etc etc etc. all integrated within the entire scheme. This is how I got my material published back in the 80's at age 16, because of my understanding of this balance and my creations.

The creatures in "this" game are not balanced and are irratically altered but much stronger than your party, (if you do not cheat like me and try to play an honest game, because Balance goes Both Ways).

This is also why Bioware incorporated AD&D into the game. This why they had advisors guiding them. This is why Baldurs Gate was one of the most successful games in history.

Some of you are utterly ignoring these facts and have no idea of what I am talking about. Some of you have misread the points of DM discretion and there meaning. This is nothing new of course. A lot of first time players think they are experts after reading it once through, or even skiming through it.

Some of you may be wondering why I am being what seems like a stickler for the rules. I can simply ask you in reply, why are you so afraid of the rules? Do you think it will be predictable? Do you think it will be too easy ( I have already given you perfect examples of difficulty) and if you think being able to kill a Litch without any preparation at all is easy, then you go right ahead and try!

Point is, many of you don't care for balance, many gamers cheat anyway. Ironic how a game can be so horrible but keep you coming back for more year after year isn't it!

The Dragon hit by norm weapons BTW (noted above) was a glitch in the original game. I just looked up the old fix notes from the beta release. Vampires still have their +1 required to hit while Bhodi is higher! (No spell casting there).

This can be better! This is the Big point!

I have been reading this thread since you first made it with something that I can only describe as a growing sense of horror and as a result feel I have to say something.

The facts are that Vlad has made a fun, enjoyable and popular modification yet you are attacking it simply because it does not directly correlate with a pen and paper rule set, something which strikes me as ridiculous. The point you continually fail to grasp is that such correlation is irrelevant, the modification does not have to use strict AD&D rules and creatures to be of high quality.

The job of the modder is to produce the most enjoyable game possible and if he is able to do so by making up his own creatures or changing the rules as layed down in some AD&D manual then who cares? Not me and certainly not most players, adherence to the AD&D canon is no virtue in itself.

Maybe you have played so much AD&D that you consider anything that offends against its canon as some sort of heresy but no one else does. If this is all so important to you and you truly belive you could do better by sticking to strict AD&D rules then theres no one stopping you, go and make your own mod as hoppy has suggested previously.

Sorry to be confrontational but the whole "I am Bereth Darkides god of AD&D and you must bow to my superior wisdom" thing is becoming just rude and boring.

Well, guys, I think this debate is slowly taking the wrong direction. It should be moved to some general modding forum section, although it began as a criticism and suggestion to Vlad´s mod. It will become endless, as all of you have your own right. Bereth will still stick to his AD&D rules, someone else will defend NEJ mod instead... endless.

Personally I do not think Bereth is trying to propagate himself what big AD&D boss he is, no, he has some points I must admit. But the rest of you has yours as well, considering the mod creator in the name of fun and gameplay can make a mod the way he want. I wonder why don´t you boys finally settle down in this for good, if there´s no progress...

Bereth, I wrote you before, and Sir-Kill wrote before me, the best way for mod creators will be if you send me an AD&D notes, creature vs party of 6 comparations, or something like that. Evidently you have enough time to write such textfile. I can transform it into a webpage with no problems. Thus the modders will be able to take a look into it and make their mods more AD&D.

Sounds like a plan then. Let me know the details.

You forgot to say......"At All"! lol

Hey I never said "VLAD, you suck". In fact I have praised him above all other modders so far. The stability of his mods are the absolute best without question. But even Vlad's mod can be improved upon. What I'm saying is, I know how. It is coming as a surprise to some of you that this can be done in core rules. 1 other point your forgetting is,,, it will take less time to create if a modder was to stick to the core creatures for the most part.
He can create some new ones yes, but they would be what they would be! Anyone know what a "Tarasque" is? How about a "Living Wall"?
My fellow gamers, if vlad were to imput my idea's into a game I would promiss that you would be verklempt with excitement for hours.

You may think it rediculous, but I certainly don't. I understand "completely" what you are saying. What I am doing is going beyond the way you are think sort of a few steps ahead in a way of speaking. I have been there,, done that,, in the end,,, it doesn't last!

The main reason why so many mods have been created isn't just to propogate more game play, it has been mostly to improve it, yes? So, though you might enjoy it, I can say from my years of experience, I will count 10 who don't for every one that does. This is the part you refuse to accept. Why you think it couldn't be better "Using" core rules, shows that you don't actualy know the core rules or the endless (ENDLESS) possibilities a Modder can create within this games scope, without taking any onesingle thing away from your character in order to make it more challenging or difficult.

I don't think you think it can be done. I think a lot of you think your could figure any scenario out for yourself with the limited exposure to Baldur's Gate that you have had. Do you not think I could challenge you

I could take 10, 5th level monsters, put them in the right scenario, and kill 80% of your party at 15th level before you knew what happened and before the last two fellas might have figured it out.Not one of these creatures would be altered in any way.
You haven't even scratched the surface of knowledge this game is capable of! There is no need to deviate from the core rules and trust me when I say, if you think this game is fun now, my ideas would make your mouth water and get you wet in the netherworld areas and keep you bigging for more!


How 'bout a scenario that could permanently kill your character if you willingly attempted it! Ya, one time chance! How many of you would have the brass cahonas to try that? Let me put it to you another way. I once dm'd a game called "the Castle of Amputee" many years ago. The winner of the gold was the person who left the castle with the most body parts left. and I did it with CORE RULES!

lol....true story dudes. It was funnier than hell!

The possibilities are endless!