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lroumen
The Riskbreaker is extremely interesting, but he seems more like a chore to keep alive. I have some ideas on how to play with him (I started a quick game to try out some things), but he could use a fun upgradeable ring and/or amulet that provides some protection options to take him out of the continuous baby-sitting bin. Without such a bonus, I believe that the riskbreaker will not be played. People should have an incentive to play him. Have people find the item in the early game, then have them upgrade it in the mid-game.

Perhaps the item should provide "Shield" thrice a day for when blur runs out after the so-manieth time the opponents cast "True Sight". Further bonuses might be something like +2AC, +2 saving throw vs spells, 10% resistance to fire/cold/magic damage. Later improve it to +3 and +15% or something.... minor bonuses add up through an entire game.
Sikret
Thanks for the comments.

I think at this stage and before playing a whole game with a Riskbreaker in the party, it's very difficult for us to have a reliable assessment of the kit's capabilities. Riskbreakers gain some good abilities as they level up.

Improving the kit by giving them items is not an optimal solution. If the kit needs improvements, I will do it by applying changes directly to the kit.

In general, the kit has fortunately a long list of disadvantages, which opens the opportunity to add (at least) one more advantage to the kit (if needed).

We can discuss it further.

Cheers

PS: So far, I have omitted the kit's minimum Dexterity requirement for the next version. Unlike intelligence and charisma, dexterity is a prime and useful attribute for fighters and having a minimum requirement on dexterity won't be a disadvantage. Minimum intelligence requirement, on the other hand, is indeed a disadvantage and will remain.
Shadan
Imho riskbreaker should be able to use twohanded weapons at least. This would give an opportunity to hit from a bit farer, so lack of AC and defensive stuffs wouldnt be so big problem. In this case I would try it as a halberd/thsword user.

Not really related to riskbreaker, just a thought:
As far as I see most imporved fighter type enemies in IA (like golems, skeleton lords, warrior NPCs etc.) hit often with very good THACO and deal very very big damage. If I have a max. armored warrior with many prot ring, amulet, cloak etc., enemies are able to hit him quite often, so 2-3 hits and my warrior is down, if he doesn't have Stoneskin/Ironskin/Mirror Image etc. Maybe you could split some of these enemies to the 2 type:
1. 1st type who hit many times per round with a very good THACO, so they probably able to hit even the most armored warrior almost always, but they deal low damage. In this case warriors with damage reduction like barbarian could enjoy their advantages.
2. 2nd type with mediocre or lower THACO, only 1-2, max. 3 hit per rounds, but they deal huge damage. Like a very slow golem whose hit can be avoided easily, but if he hit you, you are dead... These would be THE enemies of armored tanks, since top AC could protect very well against these enemies.
lroumen
I haven't gone far enough for all risk decrement, but I've progressed quite fast to level 11 and the Improved haste that I can currently use is already quite powerful. I do have a question regarding the Improved Haste. Is it cast at character level or at a set level?

I think from the disadvantages, the dexterity minimum isn't necessary since you will most likely put it to 18 anyway. The biggest problem is protection from critical hits. The problems with defense are not as much as I thought it would, but I haven't gone up against the tough opponents. As I mentioned, blur gets dispelled very quickly, which is a pain. The armor spells that cannot be cast upon the risk breaker can be dispelled with remove magic and breach but at least they will hold up against true sight.

I don't know if I can buff him enough in the harder IA battles as I'm burning potions (mainly potions of defense and regeneration). I think that some form of the HLA Alchemy could be added as a bonus at level 15. I'm thinking a lesser version where you can only brew one of the following 4 potions each day: "Potion of Defense", "Potion of Extra Healing", "Potion of Regeneration", "Potion of Magic Shielding", which are only usable by the riskbreaker. The thieves version could be slightly buffed, where they can craft Potions of Resurgence instead of Potions of Regeneration for instance.

Finally Perhaps Risk decrement should be much gained earlier at level 16 or so, and then a maximum of 3 times. At this level it falls within the second and third toughness boundaries for the improved spellhold (if I'm correct).


Furthermore I like the idea of changing the golems a bit towards high damage+slow hit | low damage+many hits.
Sikret
QUOTE(lroumen @ Feb 12 2008, 05:55 PM) *
I haven't gone far enough for all risk decrement, but I've progressed quite fast to level 11 and the Improved haste that I can currently use is already quite powerful. I do have a question regarding the Improved Haste. Is it cast at character level or at a set level?


At character level.

QUOTE

The biggest problem is protection from critical hits.
He can use Ioun stones.

QUOTE
Finally Perhaps Risk decrement should be much gained earlier at level 16 or so, and then a maximum of 3 times.


I took a note of this suggestion and saved it. I'll consider it.

How much useful have you found his critical hit bonus?
lroumen
I am aware of the fact that they can use Ioun stones, but I'll have to find one first. I have not even found one with my other party that has progressed much further.


The increased critical hits is a nice bonus, but I'm uncertain how to categorise it. If I keep the riskbreaker hasted in fights, the increased amount of possible hits also trigger more critical hits and that helps to finish off some opponents like mages, undead and golems quite well. I am afraid that it will not be very helpful against helmet/ioun stone wearing opponents later on such as human fighters/beserkers. Those foes are very tough and require high damage to dispose of... this means that this bonus may be ineffective against certain important or tough foes.


I think the main weapons will have to be longswords and clubs. Those are safe to find early game and have a nice variety throughout the game. So far I've found the Root of the Problem and Namarra.
There are few other options, but I am considering to take dagger or short sword as a piercing weapon as well. Dagger of the Star may prove to be helpful, as well as the bonuses of Arbane (Haste) and Ilbratha (Mirror Image)... but for those bonuses I do not need to wield them, so that doesn't require specialisation of any sort.
Shadan
Long sword has a problem: no good +3 long sword in early game. But cause of JD sword, it is a best option at end.
Clubs are very at start, but no good high end club, so in high end game you won't have good blunt weapon. I would use clubs with non fighter warriors, since they can put only ** into weapon proficiencies, so you can max. out more weapons, and you won't feel your club skill as wasted points.
I would say to use long sword and flail if your protagonist is not ranger. Phosphorous and FoA+3 are good early weapons, FoA+4/FoA+5 and Phosphorous are good weapons even at end also. If you don't need to use blunt weapon, you can use 2 long swords (Daystar, The Truth, JD sword, Angruvadal etc.) in ToB.
Sikret
"Treefolk's Arm +4" and the "Rimed Club +4" are not too bad, eh?
lroumen
I like Treefolk Arm and there is an 'easy' +3 club available early on. You cannot go wrong with clubs. I was actually hoping to forge the improved Club of Detonation which packs quite a punch too. Flails are good for my secondary warrior.

Longsword seems the best early game choice, since there are some +1 and +2 variants to be found early on. I haven't come across any better slashing one-handed weapons so far, hence suggestions are welcome.
Katana and bastard sword would have been options if there were some good ones to be found early game.
Shadan
Yes, I fogrot Treefolk's Arm, and Rhymed Club, but I am talking about best weapons anyway, with +5 enchantment. But you are right, Phosphorous and FoA+4 is same class than these clubs, so clubs and flails are similarly good. Sadly FoA+5 makes you immune to haste, so I don't like it very much and I use it only when Free Action needed or Impr. Haste is dispeled. Anyway there is no club and no flail for Riskbreaker which is in pair with FoD&W, JD sword, Hammer of Thor, The Thruth, Dragons lord etc.
For early good slashing, axes are the best cause of Frostreaver and Stonefire.
lroumen
Ah yes axes... I had forgotten about those.
Sikret
What's your opinion about this new description for the kit:

QUOTE
RISKBREAKER: Riskbreakers are masters of simultaneos speed and accuracy. They have the ability to move and attack enemies in a way that only a blurred outline of their bodies can be seen. Riskbreakers have limited access to two mage spells as innate abilities. High level Riskbreakers gain unique abilities to break the risk involved in most difficult battles. The trainings required to become a riskbreaker are very demanding and require the riskbreaker to sacrifice a portion of his health and stamina during the process. Only Humans can be Riskbreakers.

Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11 and 14.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D8 +8 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), Healing the Riskbreaker for 20 hp.
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 20.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 10 rounds:
- Improved Haste
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round

Risk Decrement:
When surrounded by lots of enemies and when most other warriors may fall or surrender in despair, a high level riskbreaker is more than capable to break the risk involved in the toughest situations.

Risk Decrement has the following effects:
- Heals the riskbreaker completely.
- Applies a massive attack to all enemies around the riskbreaker inflicting 8D10 crushing damage with no saving throw.
- Has a good chance to throw back all or some of the enemies.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear any armor.
- Cannot wear any helmet (other than Ioun stones).
- Cannot use gauntlets and shields.
- Cannot use ranged weapons.
- Cannot specialize in two handed weapons.
- Cannot be proficient in single weapon and Two handed weapon styles.
- Receives a -2 Penalty to constitution.
- Is immune to "Spirit Armor" and "Barkskin" spells.
- Requires 12 Intelligence.
- Cannot dual class.


Please compare this with the current description (attached to the mod's readme) and send me your feedback.

Nexiam
now it looks very interesting, thou a bit strong in advantages
lroumen
The Riskbreaker is designed to go with 2-weapon style and use his own improved haste abilities to fight opponents. He has little defense except for Blur and a decent AC bonus every few levels.

Some quick math:
Considering this, his amount of attacks per round will probably be around 6 on average.
It depends on proficiencies and on the fact that his improved haste is not always up.
I'm guessing that he has a good enough THAC0 to hit tough monsters for about 3-4 times per round.
15% chance to gain a bonus would then be around once every two rounds, hence quite often.
Against bad AC foes, the occurrence is higher since you hit more often each round (5-6 times).
That is slightly worrying.
The AC decrease is fine, the 20HP heal is fine, but I'm concerned that if Hard Hit triggers too often, the bonus damage becomes unrealistic.

There are some possibilities to make it seemingly more balanced.
1. Lower the conditional damage so that it becomes 10d4+4 or make it 5d8+8. To me, that is already an astonishing amount of bonus damage.
2. Lower the chance to 10%.

The rest of the abilities look fine. Chain Breaker Stance may seem too powerful to people, but considering that you gain less improved haste abilities throughout your leveling than that of the previous riskbreaker version, that particular bonus of Chain Breaker Stance is fine.
Raven
QUOTE(lroumen @ Mar 5 2008, 04:03 PM) *
There are some possibilities to make it seemingly more balanced.
1. Lower the conditional damage so that it becomes 10d4+4 or make it 5d8+8. To me, that is already an astonishing amount of bonus damage.
2. Lower the chance to 10%.

I agree. I think the combination of GWW with 'Hard Hit' and a nasty melee weapon would be too powerful with 10d8+8 bonus damage happening 15% of the time.

Btw what kind of damage is the 'Hard Hit'?

Also does the Regeneration of 12 hp per round from the Chain Breaker Stance include the doubling from the Improved Haste? Or will it work out to be 24 hp per round?
rbeverjr
Personally, I would have rather seen him be able to brew his own potions of AC0. It still seems to me that he is squishy early on.
hankiwi
I would add disadventages like -2 strenght and a 14 intelligence requirement otherwise riskbreaker too strong : you are giving him powerful abilities (the 15% thing) usually only available through the use of mighty weapons introduced by IA...
I like the brewing potions ability. It would then justify the high intelligence score.

Moreover i really don't like this 20 points healed on hit thing. Is he a vampire or smthg?
Additionnal damages should be lowered like Iroumen said and I'd decrease the trigger chance of 15% to 5%.
Nexiam
QUOTE(Sikret @ Mar 5 2008, 02:06 PM) *
What's your opinion about this new description for the kit:

QUOTE
RISKBREAKER: Riskbreakers are masters of simultaneos speed and accuracy. They have the ability to move and attack enemies in a way that only a blurred outline of their bodies can be seen. Riskbreakers have limited access to two mage spells as innate abilities. High level Riskbreakers gain unique abilities to break the risk involved in most difficult battles. The trainings required to become a riskbreaker are very demanding and require the riskbreaker to sacrifice a portion of his health and stamina during the process. Only Humans can be Riskbreakers.

Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11 and 14.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D8 +8 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), Healing the Riskbreaker for 20 hp.
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 20.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 10 rounds:
- Improved Haste
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round

Risk Decrement:
When surrounded by lots of enemies and when most other warriors may fall or surrender in despair, a high level riskbreaker is more than capable to break the risk involved in the toughest situations.

Risk Decrement has the following effects:
- Heals the riskbreaker completely.
- Applies a massive attack to all enemies around the riskbreaker inflicting 8D10 crushing damage with no saving throw.
- Has a good chance to throw back all or some of the enemies.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear any armor.
- Cannot wear any helmet (other than Ioun stones).
- Cannot use gauntlets and shields.
- Cannot use ranged weapons.
- Cannot specialize in two handed weapons.
- Cannot be proficient in single weapon and Two handed weapon styles.
- Receives a -2 Penalty to constitution.
- Is immune to "Spirit Armor" and "Barkskin" spells.
- Requires 12 Intelligence.
- Cannot dual class.


Please compare this with the current description (attached to the mod's readme) and send me your feedback.


imo go for 10% or lower the values from the random abilities

remove imp from chainbreaker, 25 str is nice, lower regen rate

gain 1st decrement at a bit higher lvl imo

no need to raise int req for his 2 spells he casts lol
Sikret
QUOTE(Raven @ Mar 5 2008, 11:19 PM) *
I agree. I think the combination of GWW with 'Hard Hit' and a nasty melee weapon would be too powerful with 10d8+8 bonus damage happening 15% of the time.


I'm not sure if I have conveyed what I had in mind properly in the description. The 15% is the total probability of those three effects. Each of them has only 5% chance to happen and never more than one of them will happen. In other words, with each successful hit there is 15% chance for something to happen; if something is to happen, then each of those three effects have 33% chance to tbe the picked effect.

I agree that deciding over a optimal amount of additional damage the Hard Hit effect applies is really difficult. It shouldn't be too high to kill humans with a single shot but on the other hand, it should be high enough to be meaningful against golems. The average of 10d8+8 is 53. multiplying it by 5% (its chance to happen per hit) results in 2 and half damage average, which is still much lower than a Kensai's damage bonus at the same level.

With these explanations, do you still think that it is too much? Comments will be appreciated.

QUOTE
Btw what kind of damage is the 'Hard Hit'?
Crushing.

QUOTE
Also does the Regeneration of 12 hp per round from the Chain Breaker Stance include the doubling from the Improved Haste? Or will it work out to be 24 hp per round?


No, it's actually 6hp per round. It becomes effectively 12hp because of the Imp. Haste. However, as an afterthought, I think it's better to disconnect "Chain Breaker Stance" from Imp. Haste and replace its Imp. Haste with 25% resistance to physical damage and reduce its duration to 5 rounds.

The new revised list of advantages I am thinking about is something like this:
QUOTE
Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11, 16 and 21.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D8 +8 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), Healing the Riskbreaker for 20 hp.
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 23.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 5 rounds:
- 25% resistance to physical damage
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round


Keep criticizing and sending your comments and suggestions please. It's not easy to balance this complex kit unless more people cooperate.

Also, do others agree with hankiwi that the 20 hp healing effect is not appropriate? If yes, do you suggest to omit it or to replace it with a new effect?
lroumen
QUOTE(Sikret @ Mar 6 2008, 04:37 PM) *
I'm not sure if I have conveyed what I had in mind properly in the description. The 15% is the total probability of those three effects. Each of them has only 5% chance to happen and never more than one of them will happen. In other words, with each successful hit there is 15% chance for something to happen; if something is to happen, then each of those three effects have 33% chance to tbe the picked effect.

I agree that deciding over a optimal amount of additional damage the Hard Hit effect applies is really difficult. It shouldn't be too high to kill humans with a single shot but on the other hand, it should be high enough to be meaningful against golems. The average of 10d8+8 is 53. multiplying it by 5% (its chance to happen per hit) results in 2 and half damage average, which is still much lower than a Kensai's damage bonus at the same level.

With these explanations, do you still think that it is too much? Comments will be appreciated.
5% each and only one of the three when it triggers.
I understood that, but having played a bit with the riskbreaker I do think that it's still too much. I did some math as well and I don't think this is about damage over time, but about burst damage, and that is simply too much.

Sikret
QUOTE(lroumen @ Mar 7 2008, 12:38 AM) *
5% each and only one of the three when it triggers.
I understood that, but having played a bit with the riskbreaker I do think that it's still too much. I did some math as well and I don't think this is about damage over time, but about burst damage, and that is simply too much.


Apart from the average damage in a long duration of time, the kensai does more damage than the riskbreaker even if we calculate it for one single round. Let's compare a 21st level Riskbreaker with a 21st level Kensai (both with the same weapons and same strength bonuses). Assume that both are using GWW to do 10 attacks per round:

1- The Kensai: He has +7 damage bonus per attack more than the Riskbreaker and consequently, he strikes for +70 damage more than the riskbreaker.

2- The riskbreaker: Even though it's not certain that he will roll a "Hard HiT" in that round, I assume that he will roll one. One Hard Hit inflicts 53 points of damage average.

Thus, the kensai still inflicts 17 point more damage in the round. The difference will be more and more in Kensai's favor if we do the comparison at higher levels. The Riskbreaker stands a bit better only when we do the comparison for levels between 15 and 18.

So, if by "burst" damage, you refer to damage caused in one round, the Kensai is still a more dangerous attacker. Unless by "burst" damage, you refer to the damage caused by one single shot, but cases in which 50 points of damage in one single shot can be more effective than 70 points of damage in one single round are extremely rare.

All this said, I am ready to decrease the Hard Hit damage to 10D6 +5 (average = 40) if the majority vote for reducing the damage.

I'm looking forward to receiving more feedback and comments before making a decision.
lroumen
Burst damage is damage in a single hit.

I did not know that you wanted the riskbreaker to compete against the kensai. People generally dual-class a kensai to a mage anyway.

I just envisioned the riskbreaker as a novelty kit that has a few rare and additional bonuses. In the current IA version it's slightly disadvantaged because of its numerous downsides. They don't hold me back for playing him quite effectively (potions and spell buffs are used generously), yet I would say that if you want people to play with a riskbreaker, that you will probably need to buff him slightly. With the new bonuses he looks very sturdy, but they should not be 'over the top'. The bonuses in your abovementioned suggestion already outweigh the downsides.
Sikret
Ok, the hard hit damage is decreased to 10D6 +5.
GreyArea
Having a look at this class (and considering taking it for a spin in V5) the +20 HP effect I feel is un-needed and unrealistic (yeah I know...it's D&D biggrin.gif).

Here is a proposed change/alteration to it:

Casts a low level stone skin on him, only lasting a short time (1-2 rounds maybe).

This will still make him a bit tough but not make him heal himself in some unknown fashion. It would be useful and boost his survivability without the need for others to buff him up. The way it can be explained is an adrenaline rush making him move faster, be more agile an generally unable to feel pain as much. Maybe just have it set his AC to 0 then add the bonuses he may have from items/spells or -4 AC (taking it lower = better yes? biggrin.gif)

That way he wouldn't be at major risk of getting slapped around, which IMHO would be better than a rapid heal. Hell what happens if he triggers that effect 2-3 times with a GWW? bang 40-60 HP healed just for attacking. No other class can get that in the game that I have seen thus far (pallies have lay on hands and clerics have healing spells but they cannot attack whilst casting them).

The damage effect I am curious about. Would it be hitting as non-magic damage (IE: no enchantment) and thus unable to touch most enemies by the stage you get to use it (IE: Liches certain golems etc)? Or will it use the primary weapons enchantment bonus to determine if it can 'hit' the target?

Just some musings, sorry if I dragged this from the grave.
Kerkes
Finally forced myself to take a riskbreaker on am IA adventure.. along with him, a guy I tought is useless - Keldorn. I honestly do not believe that a riskbreaker needs to be enhanced any further. These guys are killers from the word go. Improved critical does wonders, especially early in the game (noisome rats, where is thy sting?), blur is extremly effective way of buffing ac and saves (to a lesser amount, but still useful early on). imp.haste good (not very useful in late game, but mid-game it's great) and risk decrement can do wonders. I actually think this class outguns both barbarians and berserkers regarding usefulness. My riskbreaker is currently 29th level. Sure, early in game berserkers/barbarians are good for their raging immunities, but later on it's the riskbreaker who has an advantage.
I wouldn't give him any "hard hit ability", my riskbreaker killed Suna Seni (at lvl9) with 3 succesive critical rolls (18,19,18). I never saw my screen shake that much. Perhaps some items with dmg reduction made just for riskbreakers (like that monk amulet) would be nice. I wouldn't touch the kit any.
Just one more note for Keldorn - he's well worth taking. Previously I believed that he's just too annoying and weak to have around, becouse running around scared from clerics isn't all that good (and the fact he doesn't dispel anything but your own haste), but later on...well, enough to say that he and Imoen wiped the whole rune assasins hideout by themselves.
LZJ
I totally agree. Keldorn's innate kit abilities are very useful and in the 1 run-through where i took him, I found him invaluable as a dispeller against high-level mages. He is really weak against evil clerics though!

Hmm... I have not taken a Riskbreaker before, but I'll just add my 2 cents' worth. "Risk"-breaker seems to imply some form of luck to me, and the fact that Riskbreakers Crit at 17 or better further heightens this perception. I would replace the 20-hit point heal with perhaps, a 5% chance to increase Luck by 2 (non-cumulative) for 5 rounds. I am not familiar with the game mechanics, but I believe that this would add 2 to all the Riskbreaker's rolls, so his saves, damage, and to hit rolls (perhaps this means the RB would crit at 15 or better?) would all be increased.

Alternatively, this Luck boost could be put into the Risk Decrement ability instead.
Sikret
Yes, I will probably replace the 5% chance to heal ability with something else.
Kerkes
Luck adds to saving throws and damage. However, the damage done is always capped regarding of the weapon you use. For example, say that a Riskbreaker wields a non enchanted long sword - 1d8 dmg vs. a vanilla oponnent. He adds himself +2 to luck. He would still be dealing 1d8 dmg (+all of the dmg modifiers) but would :
- on a roll of 1 do 3 damage
- on a roll of 2 do 4 dmg etc.
On a roll of 6,7,8 he would do the same damage (8 + damage modifiers). No "extra" dmg can be done with raising your luck.
It does not affect critical hit chance I believe.
Raven
Kerkes, is that based on what you have seen in-game?
Daulmakan
QUOTE(Raven @ Oct 2 2008, 01:04 PM) *
Kerkes, is that based on what you have seen in-game?

Breakdown on how Luck works can be found here:

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...ic=14723&hl http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s...ic=12484&hl

courtesy of aVENGER.
Kerkes
@ Raven

Try playing on "easy". It adds + 6 to luck, so you'll notice what it does. Therefore, you'll see mages throwing saves vs.3x FoD (which is practically impossible), and your characters always doing max damage possible. Kensai "kai" ability is practically useless, since they practically always score max dmg possible. For example, a staff weapon (1d6) will always do max dmg. 2-h swrd does 1d10. But on easy, in inflicts 7 min (1 minimum + 6 wich are added by luck) and 10 max dmg + modifiers.
Vuki
QUOTE(Kerkes @ Oct 2 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Try playing on "easy". It adds + 6 to luck, so you'll notice what it does. Therefore, you'll see mages throwing saves vs.3x FoD (which is practically impossible), and your characters always doing max damage possible.

Why is it practically impossible to save three times against FoD on hard difficulties? It gives a -2 saving throw modification but my mage has a minus saving throws (and she has only +2 prot rings) and she has therefore 5% chance to fail to save per spell. It gives appr. 86% chance for her to resist all three. Or did I miss something?
Kerkes
FoD is a save vs.Death in IA, not save vs. spell. This may be what you missed. biggrin.gif Mages have poor save vs.death. (9 or something at max - high level mage, don't know exactly since I like Death Ward). the chance to resist 3 in a row is pathetic. Add malison, and you'll see what I mean by "impossible". Note, this is for a high lvl mage. Below 18+lvls, he's dead. Try for example Shadow dragon or Planar Prison Warden, Pirate Coordinator etc. Even Elite Bounty Hunter, who sends only 1 FoD at your mage. In my experience, he's dead if not under Death Ward.
Vuki
Hmm, that I missed. But let's make a count!

Base death saving throw is 9 but we should add 2 (because of the spell). The mage has prot from evil (-2), amulet +1 (-1), robe (-2), ring of prot +3 (-3). I think this is really the minimum protection for a high level mage. There could be others (from cloaks, bracers, ...) but even if we count these protection it means a saving throw of 3. The chance to resist the 3 FoD is appr. 73%. I can't call it pathetic. biggrin.gif
Arkain
Kerkes seems to talk about the beginning of the game and relative "low" levels while you appear to talk about a point rather in the middle of the game where better gear is avaible. So, given that the mage is relatively high level (hence he has acceptable saving throws) and has some equipment which improves his saves your thesis appears to be true. If no decent gear to boost his already low saving throw(s) (due to a rather low level) is avaible it's more likely that the mage in question will fail his saving throw.
Kerkes
Arkain's post is true. This discussion actually started about "luck" attribute. I wanted to point out how luck increases saving throws by an insane amount on "easy" difficulty setting (+6), so you'll see mages throwing 3 consecutive saves even at lvl11, with 2 +1rings and a +1 cloak, and their base saving vsDeath is 12 or 13...
Hope now you see what I mean by "impossible" : 13-3(from rings etc) =10. +2 penalty from spell=12. They must roll 3 times a number from 12-20 to survive. Try fighting Pirate Coordinator and see for yourself just how many times a mage rolls 3 consecutive saves. (6,4% of the time, I believe) thumb.gif
LZJ
Well, the mechanism for "luck" is certainly news to me (both Daulmakan's link and Kerkes' report that the difficulty levels have a luck modifier to them).

Just one thing: I think Greater Malison lowers saves by 4, not 2.
Vuki
Ok, with a low level mage you are right.
Raven
QUOTE(LZJ @ Oct 4 2008, 12:28 PM) *
Well, the mechanism for "luck" is certainly news to me (both Daulmakan's link and Kerkes' report that the difficulty levels have a luck modifier to them).
News to me too, thanks for the information.
Frazurblu
I am currently playing a Riskbreaker in a custom party and although one has to babysit him in the early going he really is a stud later on. His lack of defensive resources can be tough but I equipped him with the Shield amulet and it gives him an effective AC of 4. Add in a good dexterity (18 of course) , an Ioun stone , the best upgradeable cloaks and rings (I am shooting for the +3 cloak and two +4 rings) with the Girdle of Lordly Might and he becomes a defensive powerhouse. The Shield amulet is obtainable very early , has 20+ charges and is cheap to recharge while offering an instant Ghost Armor effect. Although I am at an advanced stage in the game now and can forge the powerful IA amulet (forget its name) I still think the Shield amulet makes the most sense for my Riskbreaker although the immunity to poison is missed.
I was skeptical of this kits durability initially but with the right allocation of resources IMO only the Vagrant is stronger. The only drawback to this approach is that other party members may have to go without some upgrades due to the weighting of resources to the Riskbreaker. The advantage that Berserkers and Barbarians have over Riskbreakers is of course their berserk immunities vs Demi liches.
Slightly off topic , Has anyone else noticed that a Vagrant can use Valygar's armor and sword? If so the becoming proficient in katanas is worth consideration.
matti
Looks really cool but for me riskbreaker is unplayable due to his ridiculous penalty to constitution and lack of THW specialisation.

.........

Vally: "Hey, don't touch my stuff!!!"
Random Vagrant: "Oookey okey, easy dude."
;]
lroumen
Early game he's on the weak side, but late game he's as powerful as any other fighter kit or maybe even better. My current stance is that my suggestions in the first few posts were a bit too early as a good conclusion. He gets a lot of late-game buffing and rather conditional early game buffing (since blur gets dispelled easily).

Defense early game is poor. Casting shield from an amulet or cloak is good and blur is good, but in tough battles they get dispelled rather often. Charges run out. Critical hits are also a problem since the new golems and vampires and things can kill him with 2 or 3 critical hits (though that is also true with mages, sorcs and thieves). This is of course negated with ioun stones, just... you have to find one first.

I prefer to keep ring upgrades to a minimum. It costs a lot of resources to get 2 rings of +4, which I'd rather put into early weapon upgrades (to get the +x enchanted ones). As a result, the riskbreaker does remain a little bit on the weaker side. Mid-game to late-game you'll have a greater restoration and risk decrement to keep him alive, so AC doesn't matter that much except against certain foes. I use one protection ring and one summoning or regeneration ring mostly. The summoning ring is there to spread summons throughout my party members (each having one or more).
Raven
QUOTE(matti @ Feb 16 2009, 08:31 AM) *
Looks really cool but for me riskbreaker is unplayable due to his ridiculous penalty to constitution and lack of THW specialisation.


I don't see how a -2 penalty to Con can be called 'ridiculous'. The kit's abilities clearly make up for this. As for two-handed weapons, can't you have the other fighty-characters in your party using them instead?
Shadan
I usually don't use in my party 2 fighter types who is good with 2haders. I want to try riskbreaker in my v6 game. My planned party:
auramaster protagonist (to see expanded druid stronghold)
riskbreaker (to see this kit in the game)
swashbuckler (to see thief and swashi change in v6)
Valygar (to see his new kit)
ranger>cleric
necromancer or Nalia

Sadly there is no room for 2hander specialist... Maybe I will reconsider this cause of 2hander thing and because I have only 1 arcane caster. RRR is not problem with auramaster, but only one source of Improved Haste, PfMagic Damage, Breach, spell protections seems a weak spot to me.
matti
In case of riskbreaker, kits abilities looks impressive only on paper, imo. Being a simple player I guess that his somewhat arcane abillities (blur, IH, special ability) are the reason for this penalty, and rightfully so, but - 2 con = less hp, am I right? Fighter with crippled hp in IA? Sorry, but no.

Yes, I have, but still....


But don't get me wrong, kit is really interesting, i'm plannig a game with him as a prot in IA6 (he will be improved in IA6?) but in IA5 simple dwarven kensai is better, imo.
Kraitok
My personal thoughts on the 2 handed deal are that if you are going to have a single class fighter, then 2handed weapons are probably where it's at. R/C, Ranger, F/M all tend to dual weild due to generally wanting the extra weapon to make up for weaknesses. Riskbreaker's getting 2handed makes sense partially just to put them back a hair. You don't put Kensai up front as meat shields, Riskbreakers won't be different. Big, nasty, mess your world up hits seem to be what it's about. The play style just makes more sense to me.

Also, any plans to add good scimitars or katana's with v6? There are a few, but they're rather limited and don't come anywhere near some of the other options at the moment. Same could be said for anything without a high end +5 option (clubs).
Sikret
QUOTE(Kraitok @ Feb 17 2009, 05:55 PM) *
You don't put Kensai up front as meat shields, Riskbreakers won't be different.


This is exactly why the lack of THW proficiencies is indeed a disadvantage for the kit. You can't put the riskbreaker in the 2nd row and use him in his full potentials. It's intentional; it's been supposed to work as a disadvantage and it does so.

@matti

Yes, the kit is improved in v6. While keeping its main disadvabtages, the kit is improved in its offensive abilities. The tests so far have shown that while the riskbreaker will still require lots of micro-management and baby sitting at low levels, he will eventually turn into a number 1 killer at high levels (though even at those high levels the kits intended disadvantages will remain meaningful, which is a good thing, otherwise, the kit would have been overpowered).

lroumen
I like the improved haste + 2-weapon style combination since it means you can skip whirlwind for hardiness.
thick3
RISKBREAKER: Riskbreakers are masters of simultaneos speed and accuracy. They have the ability to move and attack enemies in a way that only a blurred outline of their bodies can be seen. Riskbreakers have limited access to two mage spells as innate abilities. High level Riskbreakers gain unique abilities to break the risk involved in most difficult battles. The trainings required to become a riskbreaker are very demanding and require the riskbreaker to sacrifice a portion of his health and stamina during the process. Only Humans can be Riskbreakers.

Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11 and 14.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D8 +8 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), Healing the Riskbreaker for 20 hp.
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 20.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 10 rounds:
- Improved Haste
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round

Risk Decrement:
When surrounded by lots of enemies and when most other warriors may fall or surrender in despair, a high level riskbreaker is more than capable to break the risk involved in the toughest situations.

Risk Decrement has the following effects:
- Heals the riskbreaker completely.
- Applies a massive attack to all enemies around the riskbreaker inflicting 8D10 crushing damage with no saving throw.
- Has a good chance to throw back all or some of the enemies.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear any armor.
- Cannot wear any helmet (other than Ioun stones).
- Cannot use gauntlets and shields.
- Cannot use ranged weapons.
- Cannot specialize in two handed weapons.
- Cannot be proficient in single weapon and Two handed weapon styles.
- Receives a -2 Penalty to constitution.
- Is immune to "Spirit Armor" and "Barkskin" spells.
- Requires 12 Intelligence.
- Cannot dual class.


Is this the final v6 kit description?
Currently deciding weather to start another v5 game or wait v6 :/
Any concrete release date, author?
Sikret
The final description of the kit is this:

QUOTE
RISKBREAKER: Riskbreakers are masters of simultaneous speed and accuracy. They have the ability to move and attack enemies in a way that only a blurred outline of their bodies can be seen. Riskbreakers have limited access to two mage spells as innate abilities. High level Riskbreakers gain unique abilities to break the risk involved in most difficult battles. The trainings required to become a riskbreaker are very demanding and require the riskbreaker to sacrifice a portion of his health and stamina during the process. Only Humans can be Riskbreakers.

Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11, 16 and 21.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D6 +5 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), "Avert Risk" (heals the Riskbreaker for 20 hp).
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 23.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 5 rounds:
- +25% resistance to physical damage
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round

Risk Decrement:
When surrounded by lots of enemies and when most other warriors may fall or surrender in despair, a high level riskbreaker is more than capable to break the risk involved in the toughest situations.

Risk Decrement has the following effects:
- Heals the riskbreaker completely.
- Applies a massive attack to all enemies around the riskbreaker inflicting 8D10 crushing damage with no saving throw.
- Has a good chance to throw back all or some of the enemies.

Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear any armor.
- Cannot wear any helmet (other than Ioun stones).
- Cannot use gauntlets and shields.
- Cannot use ranged weapons.
- Cannot specialize in two handed weapons.
- Cannot be proficient in single weapon and Two handed weapon styles.
- Receives a -2 Penalty to constitution.
- Is immune to "Spirit Armor" and "Barkskin" spells.
- Requires 12 Intelligence.
- Cannot dual class.


As for the v6 release date, it's close, but I can't give an exact date of the day right now.
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