OK, when I read in my character sheet THACO: 1 that is included weaponstyle bonuses, kit bonuses, strength bonuses. If I roll 6, then I hit -5 AC. These plus numbers after hit roll means other modifiers? Just because if I cast any to hit bonus spell (like Bless for example), my THACO changes on character sheet. So if I understand correctly: 10+6 means, I rolled natural 10, which is compared only to my base THACO, and all bonuses (strength, kit, style, spell etc.) added to this later with this +number?

I checked the tables. 19 constitution indeed only provide 9hp at the end... that's not spectacularly much but all bits help.

It also doesn't seem to provide any saving throw bonuses or regeneration. Regeneration would have been nice, but that kicks in at constitution of 20 (1hp/6turns, 21con=1hp/5turns, etcetera, finally 25con=1hp/1turn). Only a dwarven vagrant would be able to get that, but ranger classes are restricted to humans, half-elves and elves.
Elven vagrants can get 19 dexterity, but as far as I understood, vagrants are not proficient with ranged weapons so that doesn't provide many bonuses either.

I guess in the end it doesn't really matter much which of the races you pick for a vagrant.


EDIT: just read. 19 constitution to use certain items... that's quite interesting

When you start with a 19 CON, you are closer to 20 compared to when you start the game with an 18 CON. The Machine in the 4th level of WK can add one point of CON to your character. I don't remember if there is any other way to add to your CON in the game. There is no item with CON anymore. All items which used to add constitution bonus are tweaked to add max hp bonus instead (to block the exploit of equipping and unequipping them to heal the character's wounds).

What about the Hell bonuses? Aren't there a bonus to get to CON?

You can get +2 con on the evil path for the test of fear iirc.

I don't remember accurately at this moment, but I guess one of the evil paths at the hell does grant CON bonus. Even if so, the evil lines are not for rangers, eh? (and it's the end of SOA; too late to enjoy the additional CON)

EDIT: Iroumen confirmed what I was vaguely remembering (I never play evil protagonists).

I played one evil character once and what do you know... her reputation was still not below 15 at the end of the game. I'm not really cut out for evil deeds.

Firkraag and shadow dragon was supringsingly easy, but I had appr. 2,8 million XP per characters when I fought with them. Also those 3 liches and demilich was very easy with 3 million XP in my party. I just went in with my 3 improved hasted melee, and they tore them apart before my 3rd Ruby landed. Demilich was easy also with Carsomyr, Mace of Distruption +2 and Greater Entropy +5. Sadly my PC was not able to damage him, since he has only FoA +3. But he had some SI: Abj. and demilich casted 3 Ruby on my PC, after the 3rd he was dead.
I am now at front of Twisted Rune, and after that only post Firkraag quest, Roenall, Marvella's last challenge, Chromatic Demon (WK2), Spider Queen (WK1) left, and I can go to Spellhold.

Hmm, just found in readme:
- Guarded Ashideena

What is this, and where is it? I havent found this event in Temple District or in the sewers.

Warhammer from BG1 found near the tempel of Amaunator. It's needed for Hammer of Thor I think

Do you mean that trapped safe after the bridge, just before the temple of lost one? There were some improved spiders, weren't they? Hmm, then I didn't realize that it is an upgrade component.

Si senõr

Hmm, those runed assasins in Firkraag's Lair were FUN! I enjoyed them very much. Exactly that type of battle what I like. Nalia and Cernd casted some AE spells to kill most of the weaker enemies, while they tried to neutralize the defense of harder enemies. Meanwhile my fighters tore apart harder enemies. Man, those many poisoned hits was disgustful.
I did Ritual also from Tactics. Sadly I was a bit high lvl, so was not a challenge. Anyway I've got a Plate Mail with -1 AC and 50 % piercing and missile resistance. What do you think, is it overpowered item? The another item (a boots which makes you immuno to dispel effects (Breach, Pierce Magic, Dispel etc.) and backstab is an overpowered imho, so I don't use it.

I have found spider queen, but it seems I cannot kill her. My THACO at my 4 melee fighters are between -2 and -7, and it seems her AC is around -20 -22, so I can hit her only with roll 17-20. I do 1-3 dmg, and even with improved haste, I cannot bring her below barely injured. 1-2 unlucky round and she is uninjured again. Lower Res, Breach, True Sight, Dispel and Remove Magic doesn't help. He resists all of my spells, even Greater Malison-Slow... I am clueless. Nalia and Cernd can kill mostly only giant cobras, mutated ones has a high MR and fire/lightning immune also... Maybe I need some level again, I am still in chapter 3 with 3.5 million XP per chars.

You do have +4 weapons? That was my big problem concerning the spider queen.
To hit her (as well as many other high AC enemies) I recommend using Critical Strike (HLA). Then use Critical Strike... and then some more Critical Strike . But you may be right and your party simply is too low for her at the moment.

I actually think shadan was maybe talking about the Viper Queen judging from the rest of his post. But in either case recommending Critical Strike is sound advice...

Ah, sorry, I wanted to write viper queen. Yes, I have FoA+4, Greater Entopy+5, Carsomyr and Mace of Distruption +2. Sadly I have only 1 Critical Strike in my party.
I killed spider queen with this party earlier, that was not too hard with so much XP in my party.

D'oh. Yeah, never think about *parts* of a posting and ignore the rest or else such things start to happen

The viper is actually easier than the spider (imho). You might want to protect your party from acid (because if Death Fog) and memorize some Zone of Fresh Air spells. The trick is to kill her fast because, iirc, the longer she is alive the more snakes will spawn around you. You could try Vampiric Touch as it ignores magic resistance. But don't expect it to do some wondrous mega damage... But if I read your posting again it seems as if you simply aren't ready yet: you're unable to hit/injure her successively and even her minions seem to be a serious problem for you. You do have the possibility to gain some more levels, right?

Minions were not problem imho. Incendiary Cloud and Firestorm killed giant cobras continously, and I was able to handle mutated ones. I had some Zone of Sweet Air also. So only problem was that I was not able to kill that queen. Well, maybe I could try Sunfire also with Vampiric Touch... Nvm, I will come back after Spellhold, since I did all quests, killed all enemies, only the main story left.
Well, Twisted Rune was my last fight yesterday before Spellhold. It was very hard. That double length Time Stop - Alacrity killed my PC almost always. I had SI: Abj., PofMW, Spell Shield, Globe of Inv, Soneskin up, and some illusions which were disapelled by True Sight. And my PC died many times.
My tactic was like this:
full buffed F/I and Haer went in, while other 4 chars stayed in the small room with the lich. F/I and Haer killed the beholder within 5 secs, and killed vampire in 3rd round also with Power Attack, Crit. Strike, Offensive Spin. Then I started to kill the melee fighter guy, while I waited for that double length Time Stop.
Meanwhile Keldorn and Anomen kept the lich in control. Nalia and Cernd casted RRoR on him after each other. When I had a time, I casted 1-1 spell on melee fighter also, 1st I lowered his MR with 3 triggered Lower Res. When my PC survived Time Stop, all of my fighters jumped on the lich, and when SI was dispelled from him, 1 Breach and he was dead. Then I killed fighter guy. After many tries I reached this point and only 3 Coin golems and the mage left. It is easy from here, thought I. But was not... That invis was undispelable even with True Sight or Keldron Dispel. Well, it was dispelable, just he went to inviws again within 1 sec. So I killed 3 golems then, while he wasted some Comet and Dragon Br. on Nalia... And then he started to shoot Melf's AA, so I thought its ok, I will kill him somehow now, he don't have anything serious left. Luckily when I went near to him, he came out from invis, and I was able to kill him. In his last sec Chain Contingency 3 Chain Lightning killed Nalia. I don't understan how, since I casted Prot from Lightning on all my chars, I am sure Nalia was not dispelled, and other perty members was not damaged by Chain L. Surely I missed sthing. It was my first character death in IA, but was too late and I was too tired to repeat this fight, was too much effort and too many tries to do it. So I decided to res Nalia, and leave that chamber. I used up 1 potion, 1 scroll, and now 1 ressurection only in my IA run till now.

Well, Spellhold seems more easier with my party than the last made quests were. Maybe I am a bit high level for this, but I am only at the start of the maze, so I will see this...
Anyway I was thinking about sthings, which made some questions:
I was thinking about Twisted Rune encounter. I didn't want to do that "protagonist hided from mage to prevent wished time stop" thing, cause it is a some kind of bug, and will be corrected in 4.3 But I don't really know how can my protagonist survive that wished time stop, if he is not arcane spell user... Protection spells are not enough, cause 1 Breach, and those 3-4 Abi Dalzim, 30-40 missiles from MM, Bighby's Hand etc. would surely kill my PC. Only thing what I could do to raise MR with items, but I am sure, then that nasty mage should start with 1-2 Lower Res... Another option to raise magic damage res from items, but I am not sure if there are enough item to do this. So I am doubtful about non arcane user protagonist.
And this Wished Time Stop led to my 2nd, question. I am unsure about order of the spells from triggers or during Time Stop. When I fire out Gr. Malison-Slow combo from a trigger, sometimes Slow hit 1st, sometimes Malison does. And both case can happen if Malison in the last slot, and can happen also if Malison is in the first slot. At least according to text box... What order should be the triggered order?
And the same with Time Stop. That mage in Twisted Rune casted his Breach as his last spell, and despite this, my PC died, and he was protected from magic damage when Time Stop started. But when I casted Time Stop, and shoot some Lower Res on enemy followed by some spells, when Time Stop was over, spells hit 1st and Lower res hit later, so my spells were resisted. Any info about this?.

Going to spellhold with a party with average level of 13-15 is ideally challenging (the sooner the more challenging).

Going for the Twisted Rune encounter in chapter 2 is masochism! (you may eventually win after tens of reloads and plenty of good luck but you will hardly enjoy it. You need to organize the order of doing the quests for your own maximum enjoyment and minimum frustration. At least, when you see that a battle is too hard for your party, reload the game and postpone it to a later time instead of reloading and trying again the same battle for 139 times. As I said, you may eventually win with some good luck after trying it over and over, but it's not fun. This is my advice, but of course you can play the game any way you wish.)



A non-mage protagonist (provided that he is high level enough and has decent equipment) can survive Layene's rain of spells without any need to hiding. We have tested the battle several times with ranger protagonists.

Thanks for answers, Sikret. It is my 1st run, so I was unsure about correct order, next time I surely go to Spellhold earlier, and I will leave some encounters to chapter 6.
Anyway, could you answer to these question pls:
In spells triggers always the spell from the 1st slot should be applied 1st, right?
During the Time Stop spells should applied in casting order, after TS is over, right?

You are welcome, Shadan!



Yes. However, different spells' travelling projectiles have different speeds and depending on the distance between the caster and the target it is possible that a spell which is cast later may reach the target sooner. Some spells have no travelling projectile, they take effect much faster even if they are cast later in the order. (In the particular case of Layene, she doesn't cast breach during time stop; she had surely cast it sooner.)

I did Vithal's quest in Underdark. When he wants to give treasure to me, I answer "I want more", then he offers 1/3rd of the treasure, but if I chose "I will kill instead and take all" option, Vithal just answer with same sentences as the answer to "I want half of the treasure option". So I cannot initiate fight. So I can only chose items, and he teleports away. Is this intended or bug or what?

Also I am curious what do you think about bard's HLAs. It seems most of them are useless. Greater Evasion ok, and improved bard song also (anyway bards cannot fights or cast AND sing simultanously). But other HLAs are useless. Cheat Death nothing, 1 low level potion or scroll per day is nothing. And I really don't understand why can bard chose HLA traps, since bards don't have set trap ability.

Last comment: unnerfed THACO and spell table was recommended to install by Sikret. So my bard is able to cast lvl 8 spells also. Is it normal in IA, or is it a cheat?

It is normal when you have the unnerfed spell table installed AFAIK.

Bards with 8th level spells: Yup, the same here.

Vithal: Nope, you should be able to attack him... connected with the loss of a few reputation points.

Bard HLAs: Well... I agree with you. Without IA a bard could (as they simply get the same HLAs as thieves do, with minor modifications) pick the traps as useful abilites. Not that it's that important to have them anyway. Although a Timetrap can be nice in the right moments. As of now, you should just stick to Greater Evasion, Cheat Death and maybe Timetrap as your HLAs... as there isn't that much else. Sadly.
But you could use the song this way: sing, cast or attack, at the beginning of the next round... well, repeat. If the song's active you just have to reactivate it once every round. The rest of the round can be spend as you like.

Thanks for fast reply. About traps and bard: how can I use traps, if his set trap is 0? I always fail with that...

Designflaw?

If I'm not completely wrong the special traps don't need a (high) "set traps" skill at all. Could be the explanation.
In BG1 (iirc) bards could backstab, for example although they weren't thieves. I never tried this though, so it may be wrong.

I never play with bards

As far as I remember, the HLA traps always succeed when no enemy is around, but they fail when the trap layer is spotted.

Thanks Irouman. You are right, I suceeded in trap laying with Haer. Seems there are 2-3 other useful HLAs for bards then. Anyway I have to try how useful those traps...

You will find time-traps most useful; but be careful in using them against enemies who are immune to time stop as it may turn to work in the enemy's favor. However, there are cases in which even though one knows that a boss (say, an Elemental Golem) is immune to time stop, it may still be good to use tiem-traps or time stop spell against him to freeze his minions and change the battle to a One-on-One duel (for a few rounds) between the enemy boss and the character who has stopped the time. It requires accurate calculation though.

Somebody wrote the bard cant sing and fight/cast same time. Cast a mislead and while the mislead clone singing you can cast or fight. Sikret is it still working in IA (like the unmodded game)?
I think the time trap is very good if you can defeat the immune boss on-by-one. How effective the other two hla trap? Is the monsters immune the explosive trap knock out? If i correct the spike trap do piercing damage.
The use any item is also good because you can wear helmet against the critical strike (can the bard wear jan jansen's adventurer cloth or can the thives wear the corthala's armor and blade?)

It does.

They are not much effective (except against unimproved creatures).


Yes, UAI is still a very useful ability. It's the best HLA for thieves and bards.


Yes, though the upgraded versions of these items are protected against "Use Any Item" ability.

Thank you sikret.

that was a very good idea to protect some items against use an item. What are these items?

You are welcome.

Here is the list of items which are protected against UAI. If you have suggestions to add to this list, don't hesitate to send them:

• Oak of the High Forest (Cernd)
• True Sword of Arvoreen +4 (Mazzy)
• Corthala Family True Blade +5 (Valygar)
• Improved Corthala Family Armor (Valygar)
• Protector of The Woods (Usable by rangers)
• The Truth +5 (usable by single class good aligned warriors)
• Red Coral Armor +6 (usable by vagrants & stalkers)
• Judgement Day +5 (usable by single class good aligned warriors)
• Flail of Defending and Wounding +5 (usable by single-class rangers)
• Improved Firecam Armor +3 (Keldorn)
• Boots of The Ranger Lord (usable by rangers)
• Improved Boots of The Ranger Lord (usable by rangers)
• Boots of The Woodland (usable by rangers)
• Holy Avenger +5 (usable by paladins)
• Grandmaster of Flowers (usable by monks)
• Golem Slayer +5 (usable by single-class mages)
• Eternal Melody +5 (usable by bards)
• Helm of Clarity (usable by druids)
• Axe of the Lakesider +4 (Usable by vagrants & Stalkers)
• Jansen Adventure Wear (Enhanced)
• Memory of the Apprenti (Usable by single-class mages)

I think I missed this one:

• Delryn Family Legacy +4 (Anomen)

I suggest some more item:

Robe of Apprenti
Nature's Gift
Elven Ancient Expertise

and from the basic game:
Staff of Magi
Carsomyr

It's added to the list. Thanks.

These two potions are most dangerous for thieves to drink! There is no need to protect them. If a thief uses them, well,... you will just reload the game. (It's not something new; these two potions have all along been dangerous for thieves even in previous versions of the mod; try them!)



So far, I have tried to only protect some of the mod's new items against UAI; but I will surely think about these two items. Thanks for the suggestions.

Of course, I assumed that you were referring to "Memory of the Apprenti" (rather than Robe of the Apprenti, especially because you had listed your suggestions about the vanilla game's items separately.)

Carsomyr & SoM will fit very well in the no-use zone I think

Memory of Apprenti:
i think if a single class mage the PC possible he want to equip Haer'Dalis with it (better AC and more spell than the ethernal melody and the 20% MR the bonus) the correct suggestion what i what to made: Memory of Apprenti only usable by the PC. But i understand and accept your opinion.

The potions: i will try it

Staff of magi: the old trick to give it to the thief and continuosly backstab with it (i think it is useless in the IA)

Carsomyr: in the unmodded game i often equip haer'dalis with it and i hit the 100% MR. (but i read that you weakened the basic carsomyr)

Summary: my suggestions are objectless.

I believe Eternal Melody grants permanent Aura Cleansing (= permanent Improved Alacrity). So this makes it far more powerful than the Memory of the Apprenti for bards.

Raven: You have the truth. I forget the cleansing.

I read the item list and i found an interesting combination:

if a bard or a pure class thief have use any item and the player forge the noble fire staff and the noble air staff together, that thief or bard get 6 tenser transformation/day. (Very good option for a swashbucker or a blade).

and the grandmaster of flowers the only method for the bard to get permanent physical resist (and the warblade).

The UAI is great.

You mean I think the Master of Disciplines, not the upgraded version. The Grandmaster of Flowers is not usable with UAI, as Sikret mentions in his list (I have checked in the version of 4.3 I've been testing and it is not usable whereas the Master of Disciplines amulet is).

Is it overpowered for a Thief to wear this item? The only borderline factor would be the +20% physical resist. That won't be as big a deal since they will no longer be able to wield FoD&W or Judgement Day to stack huge resists.


Anyway, it's nice to see so many new items but disappointing to see so many of them limited to Rangers, or more specifically, Vagrants/Stalkers. Is this part of your ongoing efforts to push people towards single class warriors and away from F/M's? I expect some people to grumble.

It's not to *push* players to play with any particular class. I don't think that anyone will choose his class for a few items. My efforts (as mentioned before) were just to close the power-gap between classes. Players will still play F/Ms or other multi-class characters but just without having access to some of those powerful items which are available to single-class characters. The outcome is that they are nearer to each other power-wise. Example: Previously an F/M was much more effective than a single-class necromancer in IA. Now the latter can use the Golem Slayer rod to make a difference.

Hmmm nice - a real opportunity to play a necromancer. Montaron where are you

What is this item: Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance

I haven't found in the game yet, and it is not in offical game walkthrough also. Is it a new IA item from specific encounter?

It's not an IA item, it's in the vanilla game. It's an amulet usable by anyone that grants a 10% bonus to magic resistance.

In the vanilla game it's sold by a drow merchant in Ust Natha. In IA (at least in 4.3, not 100% sure about 4.2 since it's a long time since I played it) it's not... you have to find it somewhere else.

Raven: Sorry i was tired and i don't see it in the list. What is the master of discipline do? (I think the grandmaster of power not too powerful for the rouges)

Sikret: You are correct why the players choose single class fighters if the best weapons usable by multi class fighters too, but it dont understand why was these weapon usable only rangers or stalkers/vagrants, the ranger is a good choice because the stronghold but some people like the paladins and the single class fighters/barbarians. (i dont understand why the flail of defending and wounding ranger only example) Could you please make palandin, fighter, barbarian only weapon too or change the ranger only to single class fighter only?