What are people's thoughts regarding delaying the game to get extra gold via the warrior and thief strongholds?
Essentially if you have either stronghold you have access to infinite gold as very few quests have deadlines.
Full Version: Delaying game for extra gold
In my opinion, killing time intentionally to get extra gold from strongholds is no different than using the AddGold() cheat command to add gold to the party. It's plain cheat. It has been on my ToDo list to block this kind of gold exploit. I hope that I can implement it for v6.
There are two ways for blocking the exploit:
1- The first way is to directly deal with the strongholds and change them not to give extra gold once the total gold reaches a certain amount.
2- The second way is to add limitation to the amount of total gold Cromwell and Cespenar accept for item-upgrades.
The first solution is cleaner and more elegant, while the second solution is probably more effective because it has the additional advantage of blocking the use of direct console cheat using AddGold() command. Extra gold won't be of any use beyond a certain amount.
I'm still thinking about it.
There are two ways for blocking the exploit:
1- The first way is to directly deal with the strongholds and change them not to give extra gold once the total gold reaches a certain amount.
2- The second way is to add limitation to the amount of total gold Cromwell and Cespenar accept for item-upgrades.
The first solution is cleaner and more elegant, while the second solution is probably more effective because it has the additional advantage of blocking the use of direct console cheat using AddGold() command. Extra gold won't be of any use beyond a certain amount.
I'm still thinking about it.
If people use the AddGold() and you put a max on the forge then they might just as well clua all the necessary globals to X and then clua all the forged items (not the components). Same thing, just a bit more work to figure out the globals, but not very difficult.
I think the most elegant method would be nr 1, but I do not think the gold-waiting is a big issue. You have to rest/wait many, many weeks before you have enough gold to finalise even only a few of the expensive upgrades. Any self-respecting player wouldn't be doing that and cheaters will find a way anyway.
On-topic. If you need ~1000 gold and you know you only have less than a day before the stronghold cash generates, then sure, I would just rest... It's logical in a sense.
I think the most elegant method would be nr 1, but I do not think the gold-waiting is a big issue. You have to rest/wait many, many weeks before you have enough gold to finalise even only a few of the expensive upgrades. Any self-respecting player wouldn't be doing that and cheaters will find a way anyway.
On-topic. If you need ~1000 gold and you know you only have less than a day before the stronghold cash generates, then sure, I would just rest... It's logical in a sense.
Which strongholds can exactly be exploited for infinite gold? Fighter, Bard and Thief (for infinite gold) and Mage (for infinite potions)?
EDIT:
No, this kind of cheat is very risky for the cheater, because setting variables prematurely can easily create bugs in his game.
The reason I said that putting a maximum gold for item-upgrades isn't an elegant solution was something different. The reason is that we do not know the exact amount of the total gold a player can earn in the game without cheating (we already have an approximation, but it's not -and can't be- accurate). Hence, if we define a maximum for the gold Cromwell and Cespenar accept for making items, we may easily define a wrong number. If we play safe and define a large amount of gold as the max limit, the cheaters may benefit from it; and if we try to be strict and define a low number, the legitimate players may reach the maximum limit too soon. That's why (at least for now) I do not define this limit and go for the first solution to change the strongholds directly.
EDIT:
QUOTE(lroumen @ Dec 8 2009, 01:09 AM) 
If people use the AddGold() and you put a max on the forge then they might just as well clua all the necessary globals to X and then clua all the forged items (not the components). Same thing, just a bit more work to figure out the globals, but not very difficult.
No, this kind of cheat is very risky for the cheater, because setting variables prematurely can easily create bugs in his game.
The reason I said that putting a maximum gold for item-upgrades isn't an elegant solution was something different. The reason is that we do not know the exact amount of the total gold a player can earn in the game without cheating (we already have an approximation, but it's not -and can't be- accurate). Hence, if we define a maximum for the gold Cromwell and Cespenar accept for making items, we may easily define a wrong number. If we play safe and define a large amount of gold as the max limit, the cheaters may benefit from it; and if we try to be strict and define a low number, the legitimate players may reach the maximum limit too soon. That's why (at least for now) I do not define this limit and go for the first solution to change the strongholds directly.
Yes, that's about it.
Cleric, Paladin, Druid and Ranger give you nothing.
For the Thief stronghold I would limit the player from continueing to gain gold when he goes to Spellhold, i.e. have Aran tell you that you will lose your stronghold once you leave since you are not there anymore to take care of it.
For the Fighter stronghold, simply have Nalia tell you that the stronghold will be hers after you have finished business with Roenall and let her household take care of it.
For the Bard stronghold, have the gold decrease each week by a steeper amount. Vanilla, the first week after completion (max results) is 1800 which decreases with 100 each week, I believe until you hit 500 where it stays. Change that to 1800 - 1200 - 600 and then have either Higgold return to buy you out permanently or have the actors quit after a successful job).
For the Mage stronghold, unsellable potions would be a decent fix.
I think in the overall that would limit the amount of money you can get out of them.
Cleric, Paladin, Druid and Ranger give you nothing.
For the Thief stronghold I would limit the player from continueing to gain gold when he goes to Spellhold, i.e. have Aran tell you that you will lose your stronghold once you leave since you are not there anymore to take care of it.
For the Fighter stronghold, simply have Nalia tell you that the stronghold will be hers after you have finished business with Roenall and let her household take care of it.
For the Bard stronghold, have the gold decrease each week by a steeper amount. Vanilla, the first week after completion (max results) is 1800 which decreases with 100 each week, I believe until you hit 500 where it stays. Change that to 1800 - 1200 - 600 and then have either Higgold return to buy you out permanently or have the actors quit after a successful job).
For the Mage stronghold, unsellable potions would be a decent fix.
I think in the overall that would limit the amount of money you can get out of them.
QUOTE(lroumen @ Dec 8 2009, 05:31 PM)
Yes, that's about it.
Cleric, Paladin, Druid and Ranger give you nothing.
Cleric, Paladin, Druid and Ranger give you nothing.
Thanks for the verification. I'll block the exploits in v6.
Doesn't seem like much of a problem to me. The rate of gold income from delaying the game sucks compared to the gold earning rate of progressing through the game normally.
Alot of players dont even want the hassle of going to the thief guild every week to pay, collect and delegate. It's too annoying for an average of 1000 or so per week. (~1650 exected value of earnings minus ~ 600 per week of tribute). It's incredibly lame, so just take the sword.
Warrior stronghold, 500 per week...bleh chump change. Run back and forth 50 extra times for 3500 gold? come on now...
Ok the playhouse is half decent (but keep in mind you have to forego the lump sum of 10k); your party isnt strong enough early on to clear prison. By the time you're strong enough for prison, you could progress normally and earn gold way faster than all 3 strongholds put together.
Selling mage guild potions to amass gold? Only an insane person would do that. It takes freaking 5 minutes to walk all the way around copper coronet. I never even go get the potions, unless I'm already up there for something else, which is almost never.
Ranger's guild is a much shorter walk, plus the potions are useful and worth keeping.
If someone is willing to sit at his/her computer and spam the same motions over and over again, for like 700 game days worth, just to net 500k or so of gold. They have bigger problems, independent of this mod, and beyond help. Blocking this delay-game exploit will not change anything for those people, as they will cheat in some other way and continue lying to themselves on a daily basis.
Alot of players dont even want the hassle of going to the thief guild every week to pay, collect and delegate. It's too annoying for an average of 1000 or so per week. (~1650 exected value of earnings minus ~ 600 per week of tribute). It's incredibly lame, so just take the sword.
Warrior stronghold, 500 per week...bleh chump change. Run back and forth 50 extra times for 3500 gold? come on now...
Ok the playhouse is half decent (but keep in mind you have to forego the lump sum of 10k); your party isnt strong enough early on to clear prison. By the time you're strong enough for prison, you could progress normally and earn gold way faster than all 3 strongholds put together.
Selling mage guild potions to amass gold? Only an insane person would do that. It takes freaking 5 minutes to walk all the way around copper coronet. I never even go get the potions, unless I'm already up there for something else, which is almost never.
Ranger's guild is a much shorter walk, plus the potions are useful and worth keeping.
If someone is willing to sit at his/her computer and spam the same motions over and over again, for like 700 game days worth, just to net 500k or so of gold. They have bigger problems, independent of this mod, and beyond help. Blocking this delay-game exploit will not change anything for those people, as they will cheat in some other way and continue lying to themselves on a daily basis.
Very true.
Only one thing to add. There's some kind of bug in thief stronghold. I mean that you might completly ignore Renal's collector, don't pay him even a penny, talk only with the other dude who will give you gold all the time. If you lose your stronghold or don't - doesn't matter at all, they're still giving you gold.
Only one thing to add. There's some kind of bug in thief stronghold. I mean that you might completly ignore Renal's collector, don't pay him even a penny, talk only with the other dude who will give you gold all the time. If you lose your stronghold or don't - doesn't matter at all, they're still giving you gold.
Blocking the gold exploits from bard and fighter stringholds is very easy, because they generate gold in containers. I've made sure that once a certain amount of gold is generated in each of those containers, the process of generating gold will stop.
As for the mage stronghold, I modified Morul's dialogue file in a way that once he gave you his ninth batch of potions, he will teleport away.
Fixing the thief stronghold is the most complicated one among the strongholds. There are at least two dialogue files and two scripts involved in the process. Forcing the player to lose the stronghold at a given time is not a straight forward solution because the player can still go to talk to Renal to re-activate it and it requires a lot of work to disable everything and I don't really have the time and intention to spend so much time reviewing all dialogue options there.
The solution I decided to implement is this:
After a certain number of times you collect money from your stronghold, your thieves (those who go to collect money) will start to die one after another during their missions and won't return. They won't all die together. After the 15th time you collect money, Kretor will die. Next time you collect money another one will die and won't return. Jariel (the guy to whom you talk to collect money) will remain there to talk. Fortunately, in his dialogue file in the vanilla game, the possibility that each of those thieves is dead exists. He will still tell you that it is time to see what your thieves did during missions, but if one of those thieves is dead, he will tell you that he is dead and there is nothing to be done about it. Once all those thieves are dead, the message "Your thieves have returned from their missions" will stop being displayed on your prtagonist's head, but if you actually return to the guild, you will still see Jariel and can talk to him, but since all thieves who worked for you are dead, you won't collect any money.
This is not probably the most elegant way to block the gold exploit from the thief strnghold, but it works effectively and doesn't force me to spend a lot of time for finding another effective method without creating bugs by messing the inter-related dialogue files and scripts. Instead of silently killing those theives in their missions, I could have forced them to be arrested during their missions everytime, but that would have been a bit more complicated, because I would have also had to do something about the option to pay for their freedom.
I completely agree with you, but one of our problems in the past was that some players cheated and then insisted that what they did wasn't a "cheat" because they did something within the game and without using console commands or Shadow Keeper. Blocking gold and xp exploits inside the game will force those cheaters to use more explicit cheating methods (console command or SK) if they still want to cheat.
As I've said before, the statement "cheaters will cheat anyway", while true, doesn't provide an argument for not fixing bugs and blocking exploits. Here is a quote from IA's FAQ:
Q: But those who intend to cheat will cheat anyway. What's the point of blocking exploits?
A: It's true that cheaters can always find alternate ways to cheat, it's even true for the fixes we apply to the vanilla game's bugs. A cheater can always find ways to undo our bugfixes. but this doesn't provide us with a valid argument against blocking exploits or fixing bugs. Let me give you an example:
If you play the game without IA, Boots of Speed can be exploited in a particular way. The boots bonus to speed could stack with the speed bonus of (Improved) Haste, resulting in a character with quadruple speed. I have fixed this bug in IA even though the statement that "cheaters can cheat anyway" is still true and a cheater who wants to have a character with quadruple speed can still use editors to give the (x4) speed to his character. Nonetheless, the fact that a cheater can cheat this way or the other didn't stop me from fixing the bug. (As a side-note, Improved Anvil is the only mod which fixes Boots of Speed in a perfect and seamless way; all other mods and fixpacks which claim to fix the boots, actually add a critical bug to the item; this includes G3's BG2 fixpack and Baldurdash as well).
The same is true for every bugfix and exploit-fix in the game. Cheaters will always have ways to undo your bugfixes or exploit-fixes and to re-create those bugs and exploits in their games (the easiest method can sometimes be deleting files from the override folder), but this fact doesn't provide any valid argument for not fixing bugs or exploits.
If there are still n ways to cheat xp in the game, it can't be a wrong decision to block one of them and to leave the cheaters with n-1 ways to cheat (unless we can find other and independent reasons against blocking the exploit in a particular case).
As for the mage stronghold, I modified Morul's dialogue file in a way that once he gave you his ninth batch of potions, he will teleport away.
Fixing the thief stronghold is the most complicated one among the strongholds. There are at least two dialogue files and two scripts involved in the process. Forcing the player to lose the stronghold at a given time is not a straight forward solution because the player can still go to talk to Renal to re-activate it and it requires a lot of work to disable everything and I don't really have the time and intention to spend so much time reviewing all dialogue options there.
The solution I decided to implement is this:
After a certain number of times you collect money from your stronghold, your thieves (those who go to collect money) will start to die one after another during their missions and won't return. They won't all die together. After the 15th time you collect money, Kretor will die. Next time you collect money another one will die and won't return. Jariel (the guy to whom you talk to collect money) will remain there to talk. Fortunately, in his dialogue file in the vanilla game, the possibility that each of those thieves is dead exists. He will still tell you that it is time to see what your thieves did during missions, but if one of those thieves is dead, he will tell you that he is dead and there is nothing to be done about it. Once all those thieves are dead, the message "Your thieves have returned from their missions" will stop being displayed on your prtagonist's head, but if you actually return to the guild, you will still see Jariel and can talk to him, but since all thieves who worked for you are dead, you won't collect any money.
This is not probably the most elegant way to block the gold exploit from the thief strnghold, but it works effectively and doesn't force me to spend a lot of time for finding another effective method without creating bugs by messing the inter-related dialogue files and scripts. Instead of silently killing those theives in their missions, I could have forced them to be arrested during their missions everytime, but that would have been a bit more complicated, because I would have also had to do something about the option to pay for their freedom.
QUOTE(darkjeshush @ Dec 10 2009, 08:56 AM)
If someone is willing to sit at his/her computer and spam the same motions over and over again, for like 700 game days worth, just to net 500k or so of gold. They have bigger problems, independent of this mod, and beyond help. Blocking this delay-game exploit will not change anything for those people, as they will cheat in some other way and continue lying to themselves on a daily basis.
I completely agree with you, but one of our problems in the past was that some players cheated and then insisted that what they did wasn't a "cheat" because they did something within the game and without using console commands or Shadow Keeper. Blocking gold and xp exploits inside the game will force those cheaters to use more explicit cheating methods (console command or SK) if they still want to cheat.
As I've said before, the statement "cheaters will cheat anyway", while true, doesn't provide an argument for not fixing bugs and blocking exploits. Here is a quote from IA's FAQ:
QUOTE
Q: But those who intend to cheat will cheat anyway. What's the point of blocking exploits?
A: It's true that cheaters can always find alternate ways to cheat, it's even true for the fixes we apply to the vanilla game's bugs. A cheater can always find ways to undo our bugfixes. but this doesn't provide us with a valid argument against blocking exploits or fixing bugs. Let me give you an example:
If you play the game without IA, Boots of Speed can be exploited in a particular way. The boots bonus to speed could stack with the speed bonus of (Improved) Haste, resulting in a character with quadruple speed. I have fixed this bug in IA even though the statement that "cheaters can cheat anyway" is still true and a cheater who wants to have a character with quadruple speed can still use editors to give the (x4) speed to his character. Nonetheless, the fact that a cheater can cheat this way or the other didn't stop me from fixing the bug. (As a side-note, Improved Anvil is the only mod which fixes Boots of Speed in a perfect and seamless way; all other mods and fixpacks which claim to fix the boots, actually add a critical bug to the item; this includes G3's BG2 fixpack and Baldurdash as well).
The same is true for every bugfix and exploit-fix in the game. Cheaters will always have ways to undo your bugfixes or exploit-fixes and to re-create those bugs and exploits in their games (the easiest method can sometimes be deleting files from the override folder), but this fact doesn't provide any valid argument for not fixing bugs or exploits.
If there are still n ways to cheat xp in the game, it can't be a wrong decision to block one of them and to leave the cheaters with n-1 ways to cheat (unless we can find other and independent reasons against blocking the exploit in a particular case).
SPOILER!
Comment not important anymore, because Sikret beat me to it, thus put in spoiler tags.
You forget that you can just rest in your stronghold, which in case of the mage stronghold means you don't need to go through the actions of going to a vendor until you have amassed a lot of potions.
Some examples below...
Thief would be fastest as it is an easy one to complete. Just rest, collect-pay off, rest, collect-pay off, etc, until you have enough cash to forge or buy whatever you want. You will not be bugged with messengers from quests (other strongholds for instance) since you're indoors, thus basically you only delay a bit of time for the game. Within a few minutes you can get a couple of thousand easily this way, which is indeed rather lame compared to those players that just venture out to kill stuff and get better items and gold.
In addition, the gold of the keep (if you have that one at the same time) is placed in the coffer and it stacks (I never go to the keep in time so last time I went there there was 2.5k total for 5 game-weeks... hmm... to think on that, it shows my bad playing-style and forgetfullness, I'm sure), so it will regenerate by itself when you're busy collecting the potions from the mage stronghold or the cash from the thief stronghold.
It only requires one trip to the keep to get all that cash, so if taking the thief or mage stronghold, the results are actually double.
Rather troubling and maybe not all of my suggested changes above do much to fix this.
It's also possible to fix the keep part at least to where you do not put gold in the keep coffers unless some events of the keep quest are met (the subquests of nalia for instance use globals which can be used).
For the thief stronghold I do have other suggestions, but those may take a lot of scripting to implement. The general idea is to decrease the netto gold you can get from the stronghold. That can be accomplished by
1. granting the thieves a higher chance of failure as time passes due to the fact that the city guards get better in their interception.
2. or if a few thieves have been caught multiple times, increase the money you have to give to free them
3. or if the thieves are caught too often, have the actual city guards (intermezzo in the government hall to have them actually do *something* in the game other than fancy talk) prosecute them, making Renal angry, resulting in increased pay or taking away the stronghold.
Something like that... not easy to fix though and if it requires additional testing it may put IAv6 back again.
Some examples below...
Thief would be fastest as it is an easy one to complete. Just rest, collect-pay off, rest, collect-pay off, etc, until you have enough cash to forge or buy whatever you want. You will not be bugged with messengers from quests (other strongholds for instance) since you're indoors, thus basically you only delay a bit of time for the game. Within a few minutes you can get a couple of thousand easily this way, which is indeed rather lame compared to those players that just venture out to kill stuff and get better items and gold.
In addition, the gold of the keep (if you have that one at the same time) is placed in the coffer and it stacks (I never go to the keep in time so last time I went there there was 2.5k total for 5 game-weeks... hmm... to think on that, it shows my bad playing-style and forgetfullness, I'm sure), so it will regenerate by itself when you're busy collecting the potions from the mage stronghold or the cash from the thief stronghold.
It only requires one trip to the keep to get all that cash, so if taking the thief or mage stronghold, the results are actually double.
Rather troubling and maybe not all of my suggested changes above do much to fix this.
It's also possible to fix the keep part at least to where you do not put gold in the keep coffers unless some events of the keep quest are met (the subquests of nalia for instance use globals which can be used).
For the thief stronghold I do have other suggestions, but those may take a lot of scripting to implement. The general idea is to decrease the netto gold you can get from the stronghold. That can be accomplished by
1. granting the thieves a higher chance of failure as time passes due to the fact that the city guards get better in their interception.
2. or if a few thieves have been caught multiple times, increase the money you have to give to free them
3. or if the thieves are caught too often, have the actual city guards (intermezzo in the government hall to have them actually do *something* in the game other than fancy talk) prosecute them, making Renal angry, resulting in increased pay or taking away the stronghold.
Something like that... not easy to fix though and if it requires additional testing it may put IAv6 back again.
Comment not important anymore, because Sikret beat me to it, thus put in spoiler tags.
Well if you put it that way...
I never thought about it like that. I guess a craftsman doesn't really need a reason to improve a piece of his work, other than the fact that it is an improvement.
I never thought about it like that. I guess a craftsman doesn't really need a reason to improve a piece of his work, other than the fact that it is an improvement.
Hi Sikret, I really enjoy your mod!
Please do not allow people who abuse the system to cause you to get
or 
.
Saros is not worth obsessing over.
Please do not allow people who abuse the system to cause you to get
or .Saros is not worth obsessing over.
Seriously, WHO does that? I mean it's like those people want to feel good about themselves because they can "beat Improved Anvil". Totally immature. Anyway I don't think that any stronghold should be taken way after some time to stop the cheat, just for the sake of roleplaying. It's good to feel that your character is in position of power somewhere (even though it's completely meaningless considering his fate). Just putting a maximum in the cash Crommwell accepts should be enough.
There is another method of farming gold though. The mage encounters for casting spells illegally drop 7th level spells, and give some xp too. Perhaps that should be rectified as well.
There is another method of farming gold though. The mage encounters for casting spells illegally drop 7th level spells, and give some xp too. Perhaps that should be rectified as well.
QUOTE(Ralmevic @ Feb 18 2010, 02:44 PM)
There is another method of farming gold though. The mage encounters for casting spells illegally drop 7th level spells, and give some xp too. Perhaps that should be rectified as well.
But they don't appear infinitely, do they?
They don't? I didn't know that. How many times do they appear?
Also there is another one now that I remember it. If you have 18+ or 3- rep some other guys appear over and over again and I don't think they ever stop(I have not reached that point in IA)- though it's a more difficult encounter (especially the first 3- one).
Anyway those that farm with the strongholds shouldn't be such a concern I think. So what if they cheat? It's their game time that is over 4 years, not mine
Also there is another one now that I remember it. If you have 18+ or 3- rep some other guys appear over and over again and I don't think they ever stop(I have not reached that point in IA)- though it's a more difficult encounter (especially the first 3- one).
Anyway those that farm with the strongholds shouldn't be such a concern I think. So what if they cheat? It's their game time that is over 4 years, not mine
All infinite xp and gold exploits are blocked in IA v6. I'll be looking for more feedback about xp and gold exploits only after you play v6 (in case you notice something we might have missed).
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