I had an idea for a cleric kit that I thought would be interesting. I had a couple of key points in trying to make it beneficial, unique - especially in comparison to the other Cleric kits, but also unique from a Paladin. Furthermore, I wanted there to be opportunities to for quest idea's and lines out of it from a roleplaying perspective. This puts them as beefier than true clerics, although probably worse than a dual r/c or b/c. What are your thoughts?

Heretic - Cleric Kit

Background
===================================
Heretics are the cast out and unbelieving among the divine orders. Beyond simply not having an affity with a Deity, they tend to incite anger among the Deity's followers simply by virtue of thier own chaotic nature. While it's virtually unheard of that a God would venture into the mortal realm to deal with them, neither do they bestow a Heretic with thier blessings. While they are still powerful Clerics in thier own regard, the lack of connection to the divine has it's drawbacks. Disconnected and often hunted by thier past church, they tend to be resourceful and hardy individuals who survive on the run. Indeed, survival seems to be the one thing all true heretics have in common. As such, they benefit from a number of immunities and and prefer to use a shield in combat.

Advantages
===================================
Granted -1 to AC Bonus at levels 1, 7, and 13 for a cumulative -3 AC bonus (possibly -4 at 19?)
+1 Bonus to Saving throws at levels 8 and 16 (8, 12, and 16?)
Gains an additional 1/2 attack per round at levels 5, 10 and 15 (9 & 15?)
Immune to Charm, Hold, Confusion, Fear, and Stun

Disadvantages
===================================
- Cannot Dual-Class
- Suffer a -2 Penalty to Charisma
- Suffer a +1 penalty to casting speed (debating this)
- May not Turn Undead
- Must be of Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil alignment
- Do not recieve a magical ring from thier Deity at 25th level
- May not specialize in Dual Weilding, Single Weapon Fighting, or Two Weapon Fighting
- Require 13 Intelligence
- (protagonist only - no cleric stronghold)


Keep in mind, I don't have any programming experience, just a couple idea's.

Thanks for sharing your idea, Kraitok!

A question:

How do they gain and memorize their high level spells? What's the source of the spell? Is there a(n) (evil) god who encourages heresy and supports these clerics by granting spells to them even though they do not believe in him and do not pray for the spells? Or are they connected with a sort of "force" or something?

The latter seems more plausible and more exciting to me; and interestingly, the concept of "Force" is (to a limited extent) introduced to the game in IA v6.

In my opinion, the lists of advantages and disadvantages (specially the former) need some refinements as well.

In regards to advantages and disadvantages, that's ultimately why I posted it. Pump in suggestions, thoughts, etc. I'm currently on my first playthrough of IA and am getting my ass kicked all over the place I've thought for a long time that clerics in particular have extremely bland kit choices, and readily admit that the idea on the class I only wrote up in the last hour or so. For the actual spellcasting abilities, I don't think that it would take the backing of a deity to cast spells, it doesn't seem out of context at all that somebody could have an affinity or attunement to the divine without believing in a specific god, or gods at all.

That said, it could certainly be explained via "force" type powers as well, in much the same way as a Sorcerer can cast arcane magic as well as a Wizard, though through much different means. What do you think?

After reading your post again, my first description seems to be more what you're going with on "force" anyways, so pehaps that would go more with the idea. Thoughts?

I want to add my two cents:

I like the idea. A chaotic, but tough and rough, always on the run type of rogue cleric. Since always fighting to survive and escape for his life (being hunted and troubled by many) he will have better fighting abilities. Extra attacks are good idea, but they should not gain them faster than fighters. Level 5 is too early for a half extra attack, fighters get it at lvl 7 IIRC. So heretics should get it even later.

I think gaining spells from a force or philosophy is a nice idea, and I am sure Sikret can implement it nicely.

As for disadvantages, maybe they should not get bonus spells from high WIS. Still, you may make the WIS a prime req. with minimum of 15 so players can not abuse this by dropping it for bonus points at character creation. Also, they may use fighter class saving throws, they no longer has the divine grace which protects the other clerics and gives them substantial saving throws vs poison/death even at lvl 1. This will be a good disadvantage as they will be more suspectible to Finger of Death of IA at low-mid levels. (evil grin)

That tracks. When I was going over the concept I hadn't checked the tables or any of that yet. I agree, it should be after a warrior gets his. The ruff and tumble rogue cleric idea was pretty much what I was going for as well. What about an extra 1/2 attack at 10, 18, and 25? Even make it in the neighborhood of 10-20-30 or just 10-20. My only thought is that without at least a fair number of attacks per round there still won't be much incentive to play one over a b/c or r/c due to thier melee abilities. At the same time, equal footing with extra defense isn't fair either. Would they get the bonus saving throws with the fighter saving throw table or no? It could come out interesting either way.

Perhaps more emphasis on thier shield? I think having a rogueish cleric with blunt weapons and a shield would make it interesting. Everything tends to go towards 2h and dual weild, I think it would be neat to have a class that actually used one other than when they needed an immunity to something. Think defensive powerhouse, but forced to the front, and not innately offensive like other builds.

Emphasis on a shield may be a good idea. Maybe they have sword/shield style as bonus proficiency, the same way rangers start with two weapon fighting?

Fighter saving throws are worse than cleric's at low to mid levels, but later, they surpass clerics in most areas except save vs death, in which clerics remain supreme. So a heretic does not have any God's favour at the start of his career, so starts off with worse saves than a cleric, but as he progresses he becomes exceptionally tough, relying on his skill more than any cleric who would first trust his God, he will have better saving throws at the high end levels. I think it makes sense.

That actually sounds pretty good. They still would be extremely beefy with immunities at the early levels, just prone to the kill spells as you mentioned.

About that immunties. I think they are too generic and may be overpowered. But making the heretic immune to corresponding cleric spells may be a idea as well. For example, a cleric's Hold Person spell can not affect a heretic who defies every and each God. Such holy power has no effect on him. Same for some other offensive cleric spells which attack the mind, such as Doom, Command, Cloak of Terror, or that mind control spell, Rigid Thinking, Miscast Magic, Greater Command, Symbols, Confusion, etc. even maybe Unholy Blight/Holy Smite. Hmm immunity to Greater Command sounds a good bonus! To counterbalance, healing cleric spells cast by other clerics may be less effective or ineffective on the heretic. Though he can always heal/buff himself with his own spells, regular clerics can not help him in healing, for Gods do not want their boons wasted on such blasphemous heretics. Hmm this is getting more complex but substitute cleric healing spells may be created for the Heretic and given to his priest scroll, while making him immune to all other regular cleric healing spells...just brain storming, is all.

Personally I don't think the kit's background can justify the combat boosts, particularly the extra attacks. The immunities also don't make sense - I don't see why turning one's back on one's god should lead to any bonuses like this. If you could gain so much by renouncing your faith far more clerics would do it. I'm not convinced about the idea of some kind of force granting spells to clerics who do not follow their god any more.

I quite like the idea of a character who dares to actively defy each and every god (particularly if his own father was one), although this is something different from a heretic.

I agree all of the advantages and disadvantages aren't worked out particularly well at this point. Hashing out a solid idea and working off of it is about the only way I can think of to actually make it work though. The mind affecting immunities I can understand being out of place. Immunity to hold and stun seem justified though in the fact that the Heretic background states they are on the run. Perhaps a sort of freedom of movement effect might make more sense? As for the attack bonuses, per the description they don't make sense, so I can modify that. On a gameplay level vs other builds I don't think it is out of context though. I think there should be some sort of reason to pick the kit instead of a r/c or b/c build. Not "better", but unique. It would fall too far behind otherwise in my opinion.

What would you suggest for some type of clerical class that defies the gods? Backgrounds, abilities, anything that comes to mind. Or simply changes to what I have posted.

The idea of a cleric who follows a force (as opposed to a cleric who worships a god) is not a bad idea (at least) in principle. However, I believe that the idea should be developed on totally different grounds than being someone who is being chased and has fled for safety his entire life (and hence, gained abilities in that way). A cleric of a "force" should not be afraid of clerics of gods and behave like someone who is running for his life. He shouldn't necessarily even have serious conflicts and fights with temples and clerics of gods (he will most probably see himself superior to them anyway; a cleric of Force would certainly have serious advantages and serious disadvantages compared to normal clerics and the nature of advantages and disadvantages should depend on the 'Force' he follows).

In the new set of quests in the expanded mage stronghold in IA v6 (those which are available only to good-aligned Necromancer protagonists), a "Lesser Force" is introduced to the game and there is a dialogue which represents the meaning of "Force" (and "Lesser Force") as well as the differences between 'gods' and 'forces'. Perhaps, playing that quest in v6 will give the players some better idea about how such kits may or can be designed. And since, implementation of such new ideas (if we decide to implement them) should wait for v7 anyway, everyone will have enough time to think and may be able to make more and better suggestions.

However, if you are trying to suggest a cleric kit on the basis of someone who is chased by temples and fled his entire life and has developed his abilities in that way, then I think that you should put aside the idea of adding a 'Force' to the scenario. But in that case, you would need an alternate explanation for the source of the spells such a cleric casts.

Hmm, what if they casted similar to a sorceror but didnt have to pick spells per level? On the other hand they don't cast as many as a cleric would. This changes them in to somewhat of a quickwitted cleric, more easily able to adapt to certain situations but without the extra spells for the kick. Thoughts?

Thinking on it somewhat, it would make more sense for the class to use the fighter stronghold perhaps, although it wouldnt really matter if you have multiple srngholds installed.

I also updated the description, changes are in bold. Advantages and disadvantages are changed somewhat as well.

Heretic - Cleric Kit

Background
===================================
Heretics are the cast out and unbelieving among the divine orders. Beyond simply not having an affity with a Deity, they tend to incite anger among the Deity's followers simply by virtue of thier own chaotic nature. While it's virtually unheard of that a God would venture into the mortal realm to deal with them, neither do they bestow a Heretic with thier blessings. Heretics enjoy an intuitive understanding of divine powers, and as such do not pray for their blessings.While they are still powerful Clerics in thier own regard, the lack of connection to the divine has it's drawbacks. Disconnected and often hunted by the church, they tend to be resourceful and hardy individuals who survive on the run or in a fight. Indeed, survival seems to be the one thing all true heretics have in common. As such, they benefit from a number of immunities and and prefer to use a shield in combat.

Advantages
===================================
Granted -1 to AC Bonus at levels 1, 7, and 13 and 19 for a cumulative -4 AC bonus (stop at -3?)
Gains saving throws as an equal level fighter
+1 Bonus to Saving throws at levels 11 and 21
Gains an additional 1/2 attack per round at levels 10, 20, and 30 (12, 21?)
Immune to, Hold, Slow and Stun (modified freedom of movement, can be hasted?)
Casts spells similar to Sorceror (doesn't memorize spells via spellbook)
Free star in Sword and Shield proficiency style

Disadvantages
===================================
- Cannot Dual-Class
- Suffer a -2 Penalty to Charisma
- No bous spells from Wisdom
- May not Turn Undead
- Must be of Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil alignment
- Do not recieve a magical ring from thier Deity at 25th level
- May not specialize in Dual Weilding, Single Weapon Fighting, or Two Weapon Fighting
- Require 14 Intelligence

Valid points. The background of the class is less important than the **feel** of the class, but they definately need to match. Let me put a little thought in to that. Obviously, at some point if it turns from a class that is running from churches or something similar then some of the advantages would be altered if they didnt fit, and the name would definately have to change. There are certainly several different ways to go with it.