My party has exited the Underdark and defeated most SoA enemies, with the Ranger stronghold stuff, Orcus and the Twisted Rune up next.

I did not forge Phosphorus in Chapter 3, and am wondering whether it would still be worth it. If I do forge it, it would replace FoA+4 as my Vagrant protagonist's off-hand weapon (main hand is The Truth); however, no one else in the party needs FoA. Is the Strength bonus worth the investment at this stage?

Also, while I have yet to defeat Orcus, I'm thinking that improving Anomen's shield maybe more worthwhile than creating Hesperus. After all, and if I remember correctly, there are only two difficult battles involving the Undead after Orcus; on the other hand, Anomen could use Supreme Shelter. Noe that Phosphorus would be used by the protagonist, or possibly Valygar, but that both are well-equipped as it is.

So, what are your opinions? Hesperus and Phosphorus - yay or nay?

Personally, I wouldn't forge Hesperus for one reason: when the Sunray-on-hit ability activates, the character would simply stop attacking, which I personally dislike. Further, by the time I can forge it, I don't really see much need for the protection from level drain it confers. Therefore, I would personally opt to improve Anomen's shield.

Note, however, that Hesperus would be different in v6, and what I've said only applies to v5.

For Phosphorous, you already seem to have enough powerful weapons at this point. If you don't have any difficulty in hitting your opponents or doing sufficient damage to them, I don't really think you need to forge it. Gold is rather scarce in IA after all, so I would only spend when I really need to.

Phosphorus is just exellent off hand weapon imo, +4 with 24STR is always worth it. 24STR gives you some edge against those damage resistant and regenerating monsters, +2 damage, even +1 is very helpful. Combined with Flail of Defending and Wounding or even Treefolk's Arm main hand = killer combo. But, yeah, Flail of Defending and Wounding cost 150 000 and if you are low on cash.... But it's worth it, imo. I don't know about Hesperus, never try it.

Hesperus is a nifty but minor weapon considering that you have to beat Orcus to get it. It is pretty good against Undead but I prefer other weapons against skeleton lords and the Sunray effects are useless against them for the most part. It is very good against the various Vampires in the game but you dont need to worry about them if you can beat Orcus. I would pass. It might have been better if you could forge Hesperus before beating Orcus but would have to beat him in order to keep it (a la JD sword quest). that way it could be utilized in the fight that it was made for.

As to Phosphorous - it is an excellent +4 weapon with a great strength bonus but at this stage of the game I would save my money. After Treefolks Arm it is the best early game weapon both for its easiness to forge and its abilities and for me it is a must have. However at this stage of the game unless you have a lot of spare coin and permanency scrolls (unlikely I would think) you should be saving up for Judgement Day sword , Dragon halberd , FODAW , Hammer of Thor etc which give you a lot more bang for your buck.
A 24 strength of course is always a boon but at this stage of the game your tanks should have access to the various girdles in the game as well as Crom Fehr which can mitigate this loss somewhat.

Thanks. I think I'll pass them both up, then. I really like the suggestion of fighting Orcus to keep, rather than to forge, Hesperus; it would make the weapon a more worthwhile investment.

I'm not exactly short of money or ingredients, by the way - probably because I didn't forged any 'generic' items (Rings of Protection, Weapons +3 etc.). Still, as Frazurblu has noted, some heavy investments are yet to be made.

(Of course, if anybody else has pertinent arguments, please do present them!)

News in v6 which are relevant to this topic:

- There is a third item-upgrade which has "The Black Blood of Orcus" as one of its ingredients. So, players will have one extra motive to fight Orcus.

- Hesperus is improved (instead of Sunray, it triggers the more powerful 'Disrupt Undead' spell and no longer causes the wielder to stop attacking). Again, this is another step to encurage players to fight Orcus and to make the battle more rewarding.

- Tree Folk's Arm is nerfed (it's now +3 and its extra acid damage applies with a chance per hit, not always -- though the amount of the damage is moderately increased) and is usable by fewer classes. Hence, Phosphorous gains its intended (and deserved) position as the best weapon you can forge in chapter 3.

Aw Sikret , please don't take away our Treefolks Arm
By all means tweak its damage and restrict its use by class but if you lower it to +3 many players may not choose to forge it at all.
Why waste a permanency scroll and lots of money on a weapon that isn't +4? IMO Phosphorous is already the best available weapon in chapter 3 and it is a flail (well morningstar).
Many players will choose not be proficient in clubs if they have nothing to shoot for.

Phosphorus will probably make game quite easier, but it's quite obsolete once you exit Underdark and forge Crom Hammer, get some girdles etc. It's big disadvantage is that you have to spend 3 Permanency scrolls to forge it, and it doesn't do any elemental dmg, unlike Crom.
I prefer Treefolk, it's really good in IA5, and usually give my fighters 18+ strenght, so it gets to 19 which is good enough for most of the time.
As for Anomen's shield, it's an ok item. Use with that Yaga Sura's hammer (immunity to fear) and Anomen gets quite immune to everything.
I still don't like him, however.

Yes I had forgot about the +1 strength bonus but still upgrading to a non +4 club seems like a non starter.
Phosphorous does require 3 permanency scrolls to be sure but that is not too bad if you know where to look It does lose some of it's value after Underdark when , as Kerkes states , girdles and Crom become available , however I think it is invaluable to those players who like to do many of the improved quests before leaving fo Spellhold.

I'm sure that many players will still find Treefolk's Arm worth forging, because despite being of +3 enchantment it's still a powerful weapon and it's easier to forge than Phosphorous.

Three permanency scrolls is not a problem at all, imo. Phosphorus is worth it, even after Underdark. Belts with strenght bonuses are not that good, at least not all of them. Gridle of Lordy Might is pretty good but the other (23 STR) is not worth forging, imo. Save the money, forge Phosphorus and then give it to my Vagrant - that's what I will do. Then I'll give him belt of initial barrier and Treefolk's Arm (and later FoDaW if I managed to forge it) main hand and with his improved armor, resistance to magic damage will be 75 and STR will be 25 with Phosphorus. And here it is - ultimate damage dealer with probably the best defensive abilities. Not to mention that with Imp. Boots of the Ranger Lord immunity to missiles will be somewhat extraordinary (hello, Imp. Orc Horde). Yep, that's a LOT of cash. (sigh) One way or another - Crom Faeyr goes to my R/C.

I believe there are far better options for off-hand wpn than Phosphorous flail in late-game, such as Equilizer, Foebane+5, Storm Star, Axe of Unyielding, FoA, the Truth etc. But that's just me.
Permenancy scrolls may or may not be a problem, sometimes they are, even if you know where to look. I like that Lakesider axe for Vagrant's main hand, it's practically a Vorpal if something is not immune to ice, extra hp is always nice. Besides, you don't need to forge girdles, only one is forged, and I rarely forge it, a bit too expensive.

Sikret, indulge my curiosity: is this really a Frege reference in a BG2 mod? (If so, I'm very impressed. If not, ignore this, it will probably make no sense at all!)

I've been wondering that, too. It's not like Frege invented those names, but seeing as Sikret seems to have at least a passing interest in philosophy, judging from a reference to Nous some time ago...

hehe, yes, actually my Ph. D is in philosophy.

But the names of these two items actually match with their nature in the game. Phosphorus is a + 4 "morning star" and Hesperus is a weapon to shine against creatures of the night.

Thanks for the curiosity.

So, that is the reason. I had always wondered how Mauler's Arm, a mace, turned into a morning star..

So is mine, in fact, though my research interests are quite a way from philosophy of language. Not the most obvious qualification you'd expect from people who write tactical BG2 mods!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled on-topic discussion.

I would have expected it to be called the Evening Star.

[/off-topic]



I like Phosphorous since it doesn't only do good damage by itself, but also increases strength to aid in thac0 and damage. Strength bonus from gear is always nice to have rather than dispellable potions.
Hesperous I never forged before, but it looks good on paper.

It is. 'Hesperus' is the Ancient Greek name of the evening star, 'Phosphorus' of the morning star. (Never mind that they refer to the same object, namely Venus. That's where it gets philosophical.) If there actually was a weapon type called 'evening star', the play on words would be even better, but there isn't.




It does, but as has been kindly pointed out, there are two problems: by the time you can beat Orcus, there aren't many really difficult fights against undead; and whenever a Sunray is triggered, the wielding character stops attacking. That doesn't render the weapon useless by any means, but Hesperus deserves an upgrade - which Sikret will indeed provide (see above).

Yes, but I mean.... I would probably have made only one weapon called Evening Star, forged from a Morning Star. Thus I would forgo Hesporos and Eosphoros, since they'd be in identity the same, just one weapon. Then again, if you prefer the saying according to Hesporos = Eosphoros, then of course 2 weapons would make more sense.



That's cool. I like most of the weapons that Sikret has come up with. I'll be certain to forge it next time around at least for a bit of a try.

Phosphorus will be a MUST if treefolk's +4 is removed. I think the nerf is a good idea. Right now, B-C is easymode because there are SO many overpowered blunt weapons around, SO easy to obtain, and you have no choice but to get them because there are tons of golems and grandlords. Nothing else is a real problem in Chapter 3, or even throughout SoA. It's those fights with the golem/grandlord entourage that are the hardest early on.

I happened to have two B-C on my first playthrough, not knowing they'd be so overpowered.. Some liches were a joke without even having access to ruby ray. My characters took turns eating spells one by one, then healing 5 at once in a corner with mass cure/recalls ...until all lich buffs wore off, being sure to make him waste PfMW scrolls along the way.

Being low level, occasionally my guy didnt survive CC:ADHWx3, but then protag easily just walks in, picks up the treefolk, and then its GG from there. Later on, having 10+ greater restorations...it's nearly impossible to lose, unless you get caught off guard ie. Illasera's goofy antics, or those two gith smithies, unseen and busy doing something annoying somewhere off in the distance.

"What the hell is that clanking sound?" oh...Jesus... /facepalm