I see that the wildmage is ending in the next version? Too bad. I am playing Xan as a wildmage (no hand of undoing, just improved chaos shield). He seems to be very effective. I'm really not interested in the rationale for just dumping the class; I don't agree. Even in IA, I think that the wildmage probably becomes the most powerful mage. Even so, he's not the most powerful class in IA, unlike the vanilla game. Furthermore, the wildsurges can be disasterous in the tough battles; so, you have advantages and disadvantages. While I am disappointed, I could and may just play a second sorcerer or perhaps a wizard in IA 5.1+. (Any chance of editing out "For the Needy" from Nalia?)

I agree that without PfMW the bard class may as well be dumped too. (At least, I consider there are better alternative classes in my game.) I further agree that the IA teams that each player uses will become more similar as valid alternative classes are eliminated.

Once 5.1 is done, I will have to carefully consider all the changes before I elect to play the new mod rather than sticking to 5.0.

Aren't they already very similar?

I can think of many possible party compositions for IA (any version) and can offer a long list of powerful (but different) parties (do you really want me to list them?). I don't think that players are playing the mod with similar parties and don't believe that it will be the case in the next version either.

Of course, to some extent, it may also depend on your criteria for calling two parties "similar" with each other.

Single class thieves (except Swashbucklers) and bards are not optimal characters (but still playable); wild mages are too risky. Everything else works fine provided that you compose a balanced party in general to cover every kind of needs you will have during the game.

Actually: yes, please do. I think it would be informative and helpful: one of the things that seems to come up in discussion of your mod is a worry that it forces a certain play style, but I get the impression that you think (probably rightly) this is just because people aren't necessarily being imaginative enough.

(To be fair: I'm speaking as an interested and sympathetic modder who finds IA interesting-but-probably-not-for-him and not a player, so if your life is too frenetic to satisfy my intellectual curiosity, I won't mind )

Writing the enitre list will take pages, but I have acutally given the formula to produce the list in the last paragraph of my previous post. Consider 6 empty slots and fill them with all possible combinations of classes and kits. Each combination will be an entry to the list as far as you compose a balanced party, in general, to cover every kind of needs you will have during the game. If you want a very powerful party, you can just be cautious and avoid single class thieves (swashbucklers are exceptions).

Just a few examples of different party compositions out of hundreds of possible choices:

(I: a combination of dual-class, single-class and multi-class characters)
1- Sorcerer
2- Swashbuckler -> Cleric
3- Berserker
4- F/M
5- Auramaster
6- Barbarian

(II: without multi-class)
1- Vagrant
2- Sorcerer
3- Berserker -> Cleric
4- Swashbuckler
5- Berserker
6- Mage

(III: more focused on mutli-class)
1- Necromancer
2- Riskbreaker (or Kensai)
3- Cleric (any kit)
4- F/T
5- F/M
6- R/C

(IV: arcane heavy)
1- Necromancer
2- Sorcerer
3- F/M
4- F/M
5- Swashbuckler-> Cleric
6- Barbarian (or Berserker)

I agree that some players are not skilled enough to play the fourth combination (for example) easily; but it just means that they need to start with other combinations and try to improve their skills. It's not the mod's problem that some players are more comfortable with melee-oriented parties. The variety of different party compositions a player can play IA with, has direct relation with the player's tactical knowledge.

Also, note that if I put certain classes or kits in the first slot (such as Vagrant), it's just for the more new quests they have and can see.

EDIT: Let's add a "divine heavy" example as well:

(V: Divine heavy)
1- Vagrant
2- swashbuckler -> Cleric
3- Auramaster
4- Sorcerer
5- R/C
6- Berserker

I don't understand this. I'm confident I could finish virtually all if not all of IA v5 with a party of six sorcerers, on Insane. Yes, it's an extreme example, and it would take extremely careful planning and spell selection. Some of the battles would take a very long time and a huge amount of patience.

The point is that I think the easiest (default) party to play the mod with is fairly well-defined. But it's incorrect to say that the possible parties are too similar.

VI. (Heavy Fighter)

Vagrant
WizS->Thi
Ken->Mage
Ber->Pr
Ber->Dru
Sorcerer

Many of the listed parties include more than 1 custom character. It would be nice to see some suggested parties involving Bioware NPCs. I know that they are far from optimal, but that should not be a limitation for playing IA. I also know that you can change the classes of some Bioware NPCs, but if we did not do that, what parties would be suggested then?

Take any of them you wish (except Yoshimo who is indeed weak for IA) and compose a balanced party for yourself. Some of them are evil and will leave if you have a 20 reputation (which is needed for some quests), but that's a different matter. Of course, your choices will be a bit more limited if you want to confine yourself to Bioware NPCs and avoid using customly made ones. And it's natural, because their numbers are limited after all and it's not just for IA; it has always been so. But you still can create very different powerful parties with combining them and adding an appropriate protagonist of your choice.

You have:

Two Clerics:
1- Anomen
2- Viconia

An auramaster:
1- Cernd

An F/D:
1- Jaheira

Two fighters:
1- Korgan
2- Mazzy

A paladin
1- Keldorn

A Blade:
1- Haer'Dalis

A sorceress and two mages:
1- Imoen
2- Nalia
3- Edwin

A C/M:
1- Aerie

An M/T:
1- Jan

Two Rangers:
1- Minsk
2- Valygar


Now comparing these NPCs with those you can have by creating custom characters, you don't have the Riskbreaker, the Kensai, the R/C, the Berserker combos, the swashbuckler, the necromancer, the vagrant and the F/M as well as some other kits. But again, it has always been so; you can't find every possible class and kit among Bioware NPCs (their numbers doesn't allow this).

I have to second Raven's statement that I really don't understand the idea behind this kind of comments and questions. If you need tactical advice about how to play each class, that's a different matter and it should be asked in a different way, of course.

I don't doubt that you are right. You, Sikret, Arkain, thetruth, and other expert players would succeed with many teams where I would fail. I'm not sure if the majority of the Improved Anvil players are at your skill level or at mine...

I guess what I'm hoping for is to keep the options open. Thieves can be overwhelmingly cheesy in the regular game, and need to be nerfed. Unfortunately, thieves seem most suited for only opening locks and disarming traps in Improved Anvil (excepting the Swashbuckler). If you only apply nerfs to the bard class, he becomes less than an optimal character, and I can't see why anyone would play one but to add to the challenge of the game.

I'm disappointed when avenues of effective play are closed at my skill level. However, my skills are slowly advancing. I am sure that I can adapt to the new rules of the game. As I said before, I will want to consider all the changes, however, before deciding if and when I will upgrade to IA 5.1+.

Although as Sikret has shown, there are still variations in the team that you can use, that does not falsify my statement in regards to me. For instance, I am using Xan as a wildmage and Haer'Dalis in my present game. In the proposed IA 5.1, I would use neither. I think losing the bard matters more to me than the wildmage. I can depend on a sorcerer, and using 2 sorcerers has an appeal. But I still need an anvil for my kensai. I could convert one of the Bioware NPCs are use a third party NPC as a fighter-mage multiclass or dual to serve as a tank. But to reaffirm my first statement, my options of bard and wildmage are no longer optimal.

Hum... it's not that there aren't many parties you can actually play with. I think it's more a matter of how the players think. It's easier to think about standart party compositions that would make it through the game "for sure". While these obvious "effective" parties are a valid choice this doesn't mean that there aren't any other "effective" party compositions. The players just have to think about it and maybe need some "skill" to employ the characters' possibilities in a more effective way.
There is indeed some variety, but if you limit yourself to Bioware NPCs it's of course way less. Additionally some classes, like non-swashbuckler thieves, are indeed a bit weak for IA and may be a suboptimal choice. Still, a suboptimal choice doesn't make the game (mod) itself impossible and may add interesting situations for the player. On the other hand it may be frustrating to have party members whose main stengths (like, say, traps and backstab) are useless most of the time.

I agree that maybe there isn't unlimited variety if you want to play IA (as in "six assassins"... that's something I wouldn't recommend or try ). Nevertheless there is some *if* you look carefully.

I think this is exactly right.


Let's leave that one for thetruth .

Bah , there can be no sub-optimal choices on my team until I can play a no-reload game at normal (or preferably core) difficulty. Until then, I am just an unskilled amateur. I just wished I got paid for playing IA like I do for my other 2 jobs.

On the other hand, Alesia_BH is a very skilled BG2 player. I believe (but wish she would speak for herself) that she expressed reservations concerning closed avenues of play in this mod. You can read her posts concerning IA in the Bioware forum.

Anyway, I am sure that I could still play IA successfully with these changes - I just wish they were not made. Several other people have also protested deleting sixth level from the bard, but if this change is made, I also suggest that the bards receive some advantage to make them an interesting option - such as better/diverse songs (as someone else suggested).

That's the spirit!

I don't think that you should under-estimate your skills, rbeverjr! Play the battles slowly and think at each round and for each and every step. There is no need to finish a battle too fast. Try to enjoy the time even if takes long. Activate the game's "pausing" features so that it pauses the game for you after the end of each round as well as when a spell is cast and when any of your character's target is dead. Consider the situation and think just like you are playing chess (and I repeat again: Enjoy it this way! That's what I do).

I don't know if you have read my spoilerish walkthrough or not, but I have mentioned there that at some points I have sat down and thought for a long time in the middle of a battle before making a decision. Winning a battle in a seemingly hopeless situation with a brilliant tactic and without cheesy methods is what makes the game enjoyable for me. Finding the right decision after thinking for a long time is satisfying for me. If every battle were such that I would never need to reload or to revise my tactics, or if I wouldn't encounter situations in which I had to think long to see how can I save my severely wounded and cornered protagonist from death, I wouldn't enjoy the game. I'm sure that you have the same sentiment; otherwise, you wouldn't probably put so much thought on how to play the mod (something that I really appreciate and thank you for).

Thanks for your kind words, Sikret. I also appreciate your advice; however, it is my own schedule that is the biggest hindrance to me excelling at this game.

>The following is my recipe for really slow progress in Improved Anvil:

Unfortunately, my schedule does not allow me to play when I am at my sharpest (and most likely able to win a chess match). Often my day consists of 8 hours composing and editing scientific reports on pesticide toxicity. Then, I work out at the gym until physically exhausted. After cleaning up and eating. I work for another few hours performing statistical analysis of bioaquatic assay data. I also try to give my family a little attention too. (Both the wife and 4 year old each have their particular ways of demanding that!) Finally after the family has gone to bed and after I am thoroughly exhausted mentally and physically, I load up my game of Improved Anvil. Whooo-hoo!

Now IA5 differs in several places from IA4.2; so, my metagaming ability is not in full swing. I sometimes find myself in a more difficult battle than anticipated and wish I had not horded some of my potions, extra scrolls, and buffs prior to the battle. Usually, I quit playing for the night/early morning after being thoroughly trounced in a battle. Then, while I should be sleeping soundly, my mind is racing for the solution to the battle. This cycle repeats itself until I am barely functional by Friday. I do doubt my sanity at times…

>End of comic (or tragic) relief

I love Saturdays. That’s usually the only time when I can *sometimes* play while not exhausted.

I have already learned that if you pause a lot, read the combat dialogue, and consider, then you will be more successful in battle. I also know about the walkthrough that you, Sikret, have provided (and much appreciate it!); however, I only want to recreate your battles if I can not win on my own.

Modded IA NPC-Party (Full TS Party)

Sime (Stalker-Cleric) MC
Kachiko (Kensai->Mage) DC
Yoshimo (BH->Fighter) DC
Immy (Sorceress)
Valygar (Stalker)
Priest of Lathander PC


Unmodded IA Party

Imoen
HD
Anomen/Jaheira/Viccy
Cernd/Aerie/Jan
Keldorn/Minsc/Korgan
Vagrant/Necromancer PC

My reasoning for asking more varied parties is the following
[start constructive criticism]
When I look at the party composition of the active player community of IA, I get troubled impression on the mod.
- Most players have a Vagrant protagonist.
- The most active players of the mod are all equipped with modded bioware NPCs as well as custom created NPCs (and those are likely 18/18/18 fighters).
- If they have bioware NPCs, it's a large selection from the following: Valygar, Imoen/Nalia, Anomen, Cernd
- And a minor selection from Keldorn, Jaheira (then R/C) and Haer'Dalis.
- Evil bioware NPCs are extremely rare in choice if ever.

In my eyes, this is hardly a large variation. It's not that I don't think that there are few party compositions with the Bioware NPCs. It's just that I rarely see players use them. One reason I think is that there are very few descriptions of parties that include the less used bioware NPCs, another reason may be because IA is favoured towards "Good aligned" party compositions, and a final reason is that certain NPCs are buffed more than others in the sense of items and item usability.
Perhaps these are things that could use some attention, before other readers of the mod get the same impression as me? Some attention to the less used NPCs (pinned topic perhaps) such as an equipment suggestion for each of them could go a long way. In the future version some added quests for evil parties and evil-only items would also span the gap. They don't have to be numerous, some will do.... some neutral-only items would be decent to add as well.
[end constructive criticism]

My current party:
- Vagrant (I should have picked something less mainstream but I've progressed too far to restart now)
- Anomen, quests finished and too many potions of agility needed, so I will change him for viconia who will be clerical caster (with improved human armor)
- Jan, will be changed to Imoen when I get to spellhold
- Nalia, I have never played with her in my party so she will stay. She's a decent thief and I've equipped her with darts and buckler for good hitting fun.
- Jaheira, quests finished, so I will switch her for Haer'Dalis when I rescue him
- I will go rescue Mazzy next so that anomen becomes obsolete

I think the fact that most people are on their first play through of the mod means their parties are likely to be pretty similar. This reflects not that there is a limited choice of viable parties but that there is (well-founded) concern about the difficulty of the mod. It makes sense for players to pick as strong a party as possible for their first game.

The reason most players choose a Vagrant is not only because they are a powerful class but also because they have access to two of the large IA quests. Again it makes sense for players to pick characters that will let them see the most new content.