The idea of this new necromantic spell was originially introduced here as a 6th level spell. Later, I realized that having it as a 6th level spell is not a great idea for some reasons:

1- There are already too many good 6th level spells in the game.
2- The spell seems a bit too powerful to be 6th level

I didn't want to abandone the idea of this spell; so, I now return with a new proposal to add it as a replacement for a higher level spell. I also changed its name after reading the suggestions and opinions about the name.

The spell's new description is this:

Disrupt Undead (Necromancy)
Level:?
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 7
Area of Effect: One Undead Creature
Saving Throw: None

By means of this powerful spell, the mage uses his powerful necromantic touch to disturb the negative forces floating inside an undead creature. The spell bypasses the target's magic resistance (if any) and inflicts a huge amount of damage, which varies depending on the udead type:

Skeleton Lords (and lesser undead creatures): 10D8

Skeleton Warlords: 8D8

Skeleton Grandlords: 6D8

Liches, Master Vampires and Vampire Lords: 5D8
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Tell me your opinion about the spell's appropriate level and the spell you suggest to be replaced with this new spell.

Some ideas which occurred to me:

(1) 9th level; replace "Gate"
(2) 8th level; replace "Symbol of Death"
(3) 8th level; replace "Summon Fiend"

If you think that the spell can be 9th level, I may even consider chaning the damage dice type to D10. What do you think?

What type of damage will this be?

How will you get the damage to be inflicted past a lich's protection spells (or won't you)?

I would vote for this spell to replace the 7th or 8th level Cacofiend or Summon Fiend.

My vote is Symbol of Death both at mages lvl 8 and priest lvl 7.
Or lvl 7 Cacofiend at mages and lvl 6 Sol's Searing Orb at priests.
It should be necromantic spell, but lich's spell protection (Spell Turning etc.) would stop it. But when you dispelled spell protection, you can hurt them with this despite of PfMW etc.
It's damage type is a big question btw.

Crushing.

The spell bypasses MR, but not any other protection which may block a necromantic spell of the relevant level.



Aren't there already a few nice 7th level spells in the game (counting in the new 'Hand of Undoing' spell)? I thought that the repertoire of 8th and 9th level spells are probably poorer and may welcome a new addition.

You are right, Sikret. But concerning that both Hand of Undoing and Distrupt Undead is enemy spicific spells, they don't have to competite with each other. What else, both are similar spells. Golems and powerful undeads are similar enemies, but Hand of Undoing doesn't damage the more powerful golems, while this damages all undeads in the game. On the other hand, most powerful golems are more powerful than more powerful undeads in the game.
So I think lvl 7 is perfect, but I can imagine as level 8 also.

I know, my point was not that the two spells have to compete with each other. The point is that there are already good 7th level spells in the game. (It's the same problem we had with 6th level spells).

Cocofiend is not one of the good ones of course and I can replace it, but it will just add another good spell to the collection of 7th level spells which will make decision even harder for your sorcerer; while 8th and 9th level spells are not so crowded with excellent spells.

Replacing "Gate" is actually preferbale, in my opinion; because we already have ADHW as a powerful 8th level necromantic spell. No?

I doubt that I would be particularly interested in it as a level 9 spell. That's the Improved Alacrity, Time Stop, Wish, etc. slots that we are talking about there.

Please don't count quest level spells here, because they have a different pool. As a sorcerer, you choose one of each pool separately. When facing a party of (say) Skeleton Grandlords, Time Stop cando little (if any) help, but if you know this spell at that time, you can use it. I agree, however, that the case for sorcerers is a bit better and different than other mages who have to memorize spells in limited slots.

As I said, I'm even ready to add to the damage if it can make it worthy of being 9th level. My only problem with making it an 8th level spell is the existence of ADHW in that collection.

Of course, I have not made any decision yet and I'm reading comments and suggestions here.

I would just like to reiterate clerics have always been undead destroying specialists in DnD. I really think this spell should be available to them as well. Perhaps, you can replace Symbol of Death as shadan suggested.

The machanism is different here. The undead disruption is not to take place through any holy means. It's the necromantic touch here which is to undo what another necromancer has done before (Or some justification close to that). It's a pure arcane process.

As a 9th level spell, it could offer some bonus damage that isn't guaranteed to happen. For example, it could be a 40% chance that it causes an additional 5D8 damage (4D8, 3D8, 2D8 for the more powerful undead types).

I think some uncertainty is always good, because sometimes lucky beginners or intermediate players could win battles that are even a little challenge for experts as well. Luck (i.e. probabilities) don't change on the fact that each player must learn or develop new tactics in order to have a chance to survive (and then prevail) in IA, but it would make everything (even) more exciting. (For example, at the end of a hard battle, the player desperately awaits the end of his or her characters and suddenly such an uncertain bonus damage saves them from the sure death.)

I vote for 7th level and have it replace Summon Fiend or Cacofiend.

Fiend, Cacofiend and Gate (Pit Fiend) should stay since they are gated and not summoned. There aren't many gated creatures in the game and foes constantly cast summon-killing spells. They could be a very tactical decision (they are in vanilla) but they could use a vast improvement for IA. It's ridiculous that a Yaun-Ti mage can kill them and be barely injured after the fight.
Fiend & Cacofiend AI should be improved (not casting useless spells for instance) and their abilities boosted (maybe more attacks per second and better enchantment for their weapons or more damage. Some added resistances and something like delayed blast fireball of sorts (since afaik they only have fireball), though not sure how to balance it.


I think for the abovementioned spell disrupt undead level 6 (mislead slot) would be good if you dock some damage (1 hit dice maybe). Level 7-8 would be good as it is now, though I would then simply add it as a new spell to the repertoire. There are already far too many damage spells at level 9 (since level 10 spells are also memorised as level 9). I wouldn't put it at level 9.

This is a good suggestion. I will consider it.



Summon Fiend is an 8th level spell.



Do you guess why none of the enemies use these spells and why I didn't improve those creatures? Both were intentional. The reason is I had decided to replace those spells with new ones since long ago (as a long term project).

So, we have actually three spells to replace: Gate, Summon Fiend and Cocofiend.

Disrupt Undead can be the replacement for one of them, though I prefer it to be higher than 7th level.



Mislead will be replaced as well, but I think "Disrupt Undead" is too powerful to be a 6th level spell.



The main criterion I have in mind is the variety of good spells a sorcerer has access to pick from the pool of spells in each spell-level. Since, 10th level spells are to be picked from a different pool separately, I don't count them in here.

Both 8th and 9th level pools are rather poor compared with 6th and 7th level pools.

Ok, I finally made up my mind about this new spell. Despite my initial opinion and impression, I will do as the majority voted and will make it a 7th level spell (replacement for Cacofiend). I won't increase the damage though; it will be the same described above.

Perhaps it's nice to have one more good 7th level spell, eh? It will make you think more each time you want to pick a new 7th level spell for your sorcerer. (Ruby Ray, Hand of Undoing, Disrupt Undead, Mordenkainen's Sword, etc. Hmmm... how will you choose and in which order?)

As for 8th level spells, I just remembered that we also already have a good new 8th level spell (= Tenser's Partial Transformation); so, that pool is not as poor as it was in the vanilla game. Perhaps, I will add a new spell of divination school to that pool too. How is that?