Sorry for the offtopics but i have an idea for the cleric kit. Because it doesn't depends on any god, doesn't necessery modify the stronghold quest.

Warpriest

"Warpriests are fierce, earthy clerics who pray for peace, but prepare for war. Their strong wills, powerful personalities and devotion to their deities make them fearsome combatants."
Complete Divine 74. page (D&D 3)

Advantages
Can put 2 star every weapons, sword and shield style and two weapon style.

Every 4 level they gain an Inflame (see above) and Remove fear and every 8 level a Mass Cure.

Inflame: The warpriest flaming his soul. They filled by the will of their god.
Get one more attack and immunity to fear, charm, confusion, hopeless and command effects.

Able to learn Whirwind HLA

Disadvantages
Needs at least 13 Charisma (or it is advantage?) //Because he need good charisma for leadership
Cannot dual class

1)Cannot turn undead //There isn't undead army in the world
or
2)-1 spell per level //Because they don't have enough time to pray
or
3)-2 wisdom //the church not allow to the best talents wasted on the battlefield



I think this is a balanced class with unique power but not necessery better than a berserker->cleric.

Perhaps we can split off a topic about new class kit suggestions. I gather it would generate good discussion and could keep this topic more on topic!

I agree. We are in the new thread now.

Perhaps some kit/item upgrades for Minsc, Jaheira, Imeon, Viconia would be nice. I'll post some ideas in a bit.

Agree with Iuan. I woul dlike to play with Viconia as NPC, but now Anomen is much better. I can imagine Viconia as a caster priest, so I would like any item upgrade which enchance her offensive casting... Maybe casting speed decrease, or item with Lower Resistance, Greater Malison, Ruby Ray.

Maybe Viconia deserves some Drow abilities. I can think of Darkness (a hiding spell) and Fairy Fire (dispels invisibility, and blur/mirror image type illusions). Maybe her future kit should emphasise her high dexterity as well.

Unlike P&P, where you actually have to roll for stats, the IE will 'cheat' and always make sure that you meet the necessary requirements. Because of this, high attributes requirements function as the exact opposite. Demanding high stats in order to play a custom kit will only make sure that you always roll the stat required or higher, so it ends up being another advantage instead of a hindrance.

This discussion has been had before.

In strict powergaming terms requiring a Cha of 13 when the previous minimum was 3 is still a disadvantage. While your overall points total will on average be higher, the fact that you can't allocate those Cha points to another more useful stat means those extra points are less useful.

If there was a stat requirement of, say, Str 14 for a fighter-based class, where the previous minimum was 9, your argument would be correct. But it does not hold for Cha requirements when you're dealing with a class that gains no real benefit from a high Cha score.

Less useful, yes, but you didn't have them assured before. Now you would.

Also, this isn't in relation to powergaming, but in regulating a kit. The stat requirement that is supposed to operate as a restriction is but an advantage. Having the possibility or not to dump stats is irrelevant to the purpose of balancing the kit itself.

And going with a 3 Charisma sounds a bit beyond powergaming, IMO.

Why not? The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage. Raven's argument is valid and sound.

A few years ago, someone made this false statement in a kit-creation tutorial. Be careful not to accept and repeat such false things without thinking.



But, it's most relevant.

As Raven mentioned, all these discussions had been made before in this forum before. I don't see why it is resurrected again.

I don't think so. The main point of having high scores requirements in the original P&P game is that it is difficult to roll them. In the computer game, this isn't the case, but instead it's the exact opposite. The IE will save you tons of reloads to get you the minimum stats required to play the said kit. As an example, the paladin stat requirements make sure that not everyone can play/be one and thus its unique aspect is preserved. This isn't an issue for the Baldur's Gate series.

As I said before, having a dump stat or not is irrelevant to the gaming aspect of the kit. Unless, of course, that you only think about powergaming, which is Raven's argument and yours. But in that case, you can simply keep rolling until you get all 18s (and in this case, having a high stat requirement will help towards reaching that goal in the said stat), so the restriction doesn't function as such either.


That was CamDawg's kit creation tutorial, and I think it's perfectly accurate when considering the hindrance aspect of stat requirements present in P&P.



I wasn't around in those, so if I repeat something you heard before I'm sorry about that.

I agree that making a warrior kit have 18 Charisma will prevent you from improving other stats, but that's a gaming issue, not totally kit-related. If someone keeps playing characters with 3 Charisma because he/she knows the Ring of Human Influence is available early, that shouldn't be taken into account when creating a kit and saying that having a CHA requirement is a hindrance. The particular attribute required is related to the very nature of the kit, and as such goes beyond the scope of being merely a hindrance. It's the particular number required that fulfills that task IMO, and that's something the engine takes care of by itself.

Yes, we never denied the things you say about PnP and the purpose of high stat requirements there. We also didn't deny that in BG2, the engine will roll the required number for you automatically. However, The main point is that minimum stat requirement (for not primary stats) is indeed a disadvantages in BG for a completely different reason. It's not a disadvantage because it is hard to acheive. See Raven's and my previous posts again.

And as we explained, it's most relevant, because it affects the player's ability to make a character with high numbers in its primary stats.



Rolling 6 natural 18s is impossible. What players actually do in practice is to exchange the values of stats (decreasing some and increasing others) to have high scores in useful stats. The minimum stat requirement functions as a disadvatnage exactly because it makes this process more difficult.

This might sound repetitive, but I don't think that's something the kit itself should adress. If having a 16 CHA means that you won't be able to reduce it further to improve STR, and thus the character won't be as powerful as it could've been were the attribute requirement otherwise (say, DEX instead of CHA), that's not a thing to measure when creating a kit. The kit should be considered with its bare attribute requirements. A Cavalier with a 69 stat total (meeting the minimum requirements for the class and averages for the race) would probably be less efective than another with 88, but the kit stays the same in both cases, balanced or not.


Yes, you are correct, of course, I meant having high values in all other attributes in a way such as to 'maximize' the powergaming potential (ie 18 in STR, DEX, & CON for a fighter). But even having a CHA which can't be lowered further still means that the rolled dice wil never be less than minimum. No one guaranteed that you were gonna get a high value in that stat to be exchanged for increasing another attribute in the first place. It might've been the lowest possible, but with the requirement it would never be.

In short, I think that if the total stat dice rolled is 90 or 70 doesn't change the balance of the kit. Its special abilities and disadvantages won't change because of that. If one offsets the other by a significant margin, having a few more points in STR or DEX don't make a difference. Furthermore, while it might make difficult the stat-dumping (which I consider of little importance), having X value required will only increase your average totals roll.

In the particular example made by Ryel, a 13 CHA won't make a hindrance at all, IMO. You can still use the dumping thing and get a priest with 18 WIS, 18 DEX, and 16 CON without too much hassle (you can still dump INT, STR because of the various girdles, and any excess points of CHA above the minimum). And this is of course taking into account that Charisma is underutilized in the game (you only need one of out of 6 chars to benefit). Plus, having a high CHA for a priest (or a paladin, or bard, etc.) makes sense roleplaying wise, regardless of their final power level.

In a similar vein, there's the issue of imposing negative attribute modifiers (eg -5 to STR). It could be most appropriate for a particular kit, but those might become irrelevant given some items in the game (Girdles of strength, etc.). Also, what would be the appropriate way of balancing a kit? Making disadvantages on par with the special abilities? Measuring it against other kits? Taking issues related to general gameplay in account as well? But I digress, those are other issues.

I guess since you prefer to measure the final, in-game power level of the character versus the potential one, we won't be able to come to much agreement.

Right.

The thing is that we are talking about a specific case: making a new kit for Improved Anvil. We cannot apply the same criterion that would be used for a kit for the vanilla game, say. Features of the mod, the style of IA battles and so on cannot be be ignored when the pros/cons of the kit are decided. It is the final, in-game power level that is relevant here and must be carefully weighed up.

Given how hard IA is, we must assume that a player will spend some (possibly considerable) time rerolling and allocating stats for their protagonist. A new kit for the mod has to take this into account, unless the kit is purely for an NPC.

Priest of Arvoreen

Arvoreen is the Halfling God of Law, and War, The Priests of Arvoreen are so good fighter, as Tempus, but very much more wise, as the Priests of Tempus


Advantages:


-May cast Blessing of Arvoreen once per day per 5 levels of the caster (starts at 1st level with one use). This spell lasts for 3 rounds per level of the caster. It gives the caster +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 to all saving throws and gives the caster 1 extra attack per round. It also protects the recipient from level drain. This cannot gow with the spell Bless, and Haste, but it can get With Improved Haste
-May Cast Blessing of Arvoreen once per day per 10 levels of the caster on the entire of the party
-Can Specialize in Slings, Clubs, and Fighting Styles
-Can Chose Hardiness as HLA
-Tenser at lvl 11,22,33
-Strength at lvl 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40
-Strength of One at lvl 10,20,30,40

Disadvantages:

-Only Halflings
-Requirements STR 13,DEX 15,CON 13,WIS 13 (18 at max)
-No summon (fallen) deva,mass raise dead, Elemental Summoning,No Attacking (red) spells from Sanctuary
-LG,NG,LN

Yeah, I was talking more in general, not specifically in regards to IA. What you say makes sense.

This has been already replied to. Re-rolling can guarantee that you will have those extra point and then to allocate them to your other stats. Whereas, the minimum stat requirement will give you those extra stats without need to re-roll, but in the same time it prevent you from exchanging those extra points. Here is the link and the quote:



@Raven:



No, no. Minimum stat requirements (provided that they are assigned to non-primary stats) are disadvantages even in the vanilla game. The argument is general and not merely for IA.

However, I agree that the minimum stat requirements play a more important role as disadvantages when we add IA to the equation. Some items' locations (such as the strength girdle) are randomized and they are not available in the early game and consequently the attributes the player starts the game with will become more important than before. Add to this the fact that potions of Insight, Genius and Mind Focusing no longer exist in the game.

Hence, yes, I agree that in IA, minimum stat requirements play a more serious role as disadvantages than in the vanilla game, because they can limit the ability of increasing other more important stats while those items and potions are either completely removed or randomized; but even without IA, minimum stat requirement is still a serious disadvantage for a kit for the arguments you (and I) presented. Those arguments are generally valid even for the vanilla game.

Let me also give you a concrete example of how the vagrant kit's minimum stat requirement worked as a disadvantage in my own game:

At character creating stage, I decided to roll 216 times (216 = 6x6x6 ) and pick one of the best results. The best two results I had were these:

(I)
S= 18.99
D= 18
Con= 19
INT= 10
WIS= 14
CHA= 12

(II)
S= 18.03
D= 18
Con= 19
INT= 10
WIS= 18
CHA= 12

Since, I wanted my character to wield JD sword, I wanted him to have 18 on wisdom. If there was no minimum stat requirements, I could easily exchange 4 points of charisma with wisdom and pick (A). However, I couldn't do this. Charisma could not be lowered any more. Lowering Intelligence (further) could have been catastrophic during the battles with Improved Mind Flayers and other new types of monsters who drain intelligence.

Hence, my only options were to either ignore JD sword's wish ability or to pick (II). I did the latter.

Of course, without the minimum stat requirement, my charisma might have been lower than 12 in the first place; but even if lower than 12, it would still be a positive number which I could use to exchange with my wisdom. The main point here is that it is not the total sum of the numbers which matters, what matters is how they are distributed and how much freedom you have to exchange them.

There have been many new kits made by fans of BG2. I haven’t played any of them except the Morituri (one unfinished game), vagrant (just started), and auramaster (part of a game in IA4.2).

The morituri appeals to me because it results in a character that is powerful because of innate power rather than just equipment (all other warriors and warrior kits) or even studied tomes (i.e. wizard). The closest that comes to an innately powerful character is the monk, but I doubt that the monk is as powerful as a well equipped warrior in IA. After much deliberation, I REJECT the morituri because it becomes too powerful in the end. I still feel like the fighter-mage was more powerful in IA4.2, but I never played the fighter-mage either. I would love it if someone could make a fighter kit that was innately powerful and could compete against the fighter-mages and blades without being overpowered. Of course, it is debatable that the fighter-mage and blade can become overpowered too. (However, Sikret has done a very good job of curbing some of the power of the fighter-mage with the fixed XP leveling progression and delayed HLAs.) The riskbreaker has some innate abilities that go along this line of thought. Still, I *speculate* that the kensai, barbarian, and berserker are more powerful than the riskbreaker for the majority of the game. I will probably give this kit a try later in my game just to further evaluate it in play. Any way, a warrior kit with a lot of innate power does interest me. Any suggestions are willing programmers?

I think the vagrant will be very powerful. He’s just a warrior; so, he will never be overpowered. However, the little advantages and the big advantage of the swanmay add up to an impressive kit. Still, I am only speaking speculatively as I haven’t played the kit enough yet to realize its full potential.

The auramaster is impressive. It’s an excellent druid. This kit makes me wish I had more places on my team. However, typically I choose only one cleric. The power of Greater Restoration is simply too much to give up for a druid. I also would not give up my 2 slots assigned to full mages for the druid. Even though the auramaster has some excellent arcane spells, there are many that it does not have. But for those that aren’t powergaming and like druids, I heartily recommend the auramaster.

I agree that the Vagrant is not overpowered in IA but what you say does not make too much sense: you have just said that the Morituri is too powerful (again I agree). Yet the Morituri is 'just a warrior'...

That's what has kept me pondering about the Morituri. He is a warrior, and any high level mage, fighter-mage, and blade (with unnerfed spell tables) should kill him. Possibly, the buffed cleric could kill him too depending on your modded game. On the other hand, considering the morituri's advantages and the scale they reach at the end, perhaps it is no longer fair to the other warriors to refer to the Morituri as "just a warrior." At least, that was the conclusion that I finally reached...