Here is the idea for another new ranger kit. Please comment before I implement it.



I plan to change Valygar's kit to this new one. Of course, I will have to modify his katana and replace its poison effect with something more suitable. Valygar is too nice to be a backstabber.

Power-wise it does not contend with Vagrant IMO but this may not be an issue. It would be nice for some more varied disadvantages - if I think of anything I'll let you know.

Yes, Vagrant has more offensive abilities and can be considered (in general) more powerful; however, as you mentioned, this is not an issue. We can't expect all kits to be equal in power and their abilities.

As a general note, to assess any kit's power (or balance issue), we have two possible ways to do it: We either assess the kit in the vanilla game or we assess it with the assumption that IA is installed.

In the first case, I believe that no kit can really be overpowered, because we have the ridiculously overpowered "Wild Mage" in the vanilla game as a base for comparison. No kit can really be marked as "overpowered" as long as it is weaker than the wild mage. For example, some players may still think that vagrant is an overpowered kit. I believe that's because those players have been accustomed to see ridiculously powerful mages and sorcerers in the vanilla game. They keep comparing vagrant with other ranger kits instead of comparing it with all other kits of all classes. This is an important point.

In IA, fortunately, the mages' laughable overpoweredness is controlled and rebalanced and we can think of other classes and their kits with a clearer mind and in a clearer atmosphere. Hence, it's best to assess IA's kits with the assumption that IA is installed.

As you once mentioned, the difficult challenges introduced by IA is an important factor which should be taken into consideration. With that consideration in mind, neither vagrant nor this new protector kit can be marked as overpowered. I know that you agree with these points, Raven, as you have played the entire game with vagrant kit and didn't report anything indicating that it was overpowered.

So, probably you may wonder whether the new "Protector" kit is a bit too weak, eh? Well, that's one reason for which I sent the kit's description here and asked for comments.

However, I'd like to repeat again that different kits don't necessarily have to be equal in power. Each kit has its own different abilities and it's not sometimes even possible to say which sort of abilities are more useful during the game as it all depends on the situation. A Portector's Mass Cure may save my skin in the game in a specific situation when my protagonist is near death; whereas, a swanmay may be of little use in the same situation.

like cannot use bladed weapons? blades seem to me like more of an offensive weapon and a protector to sounds like someone on the defensive. meh, just a suggestion

Completely. I wasn't meaning what I said as a criticism, just an observation. To be honest even though I have played IA a lot (admittedly not so much with v5) I still feel I don't have enough knowledge of how things work to consider labelling kits as overpowered.

Regarding the Vagrant, I'd be the first to argue that in many situations a (for instance) single-class mage is more powerful and useful to have.

The description states that "While being great warriors, they can also learn and cast more spells than other rangers". Does this mean that a "Protector" would gain more spells as in "more spell levels"? Afair Rangers can only learn druidic spells up to level 3, which wouldn't be that much.

He won't have access to higher level spells via his spellbook; however, he will learn "Cure Serious Wounds" and "Mass Cure" as innate abilities (as mentioned in the description). Moreover, to make those innate spells more useful in the heat of the fight, they will have much shorter casting times than the normal spells (somewhat similar to the innate Cure Light Wounds ability the Bhaalspawn gains at the start of the game which has very short casting time).

He can memorize 2 additional 1st level, 2nd level and 3rd level spells though (i.e. he will have 2 more spell slots in each of the three levels).

That will eliminate Valygar's katana from the game. I have a different plan for that sword: I will omit its poison effect and will add the following ability instead:

- 10% chance per hit to heal the wielder for 10 hit points

His improved katana already has similar (but better healing abilities); I just need to omit the poison effect and the chance to make the wielder invisible from it. Conseuently, the katana won't need Dagger of the Star as an ingredient and can be forged more easily in chapter 6.

oh heh, forgot about that.

What is the difference between to bleed out or crush all of the bones and break the skull.
I don't think that this class is stronger than vagrant. (I think the most powerful class in the IA is the wild mage see the P.S.)
It seems very interesting and fits very well as secondary healer and fighter.

P.S.: I started a game yesturday with a wild mage. When i want to cast a spell sequencer (i found a scroll in the first dungeon) i get a wild surge and that said to see my inventory. I saw it and i fallen from my chair. I found a Abid Alzem Horrid Wilting scroll, and i didn't fail the memo. So my level 10 wildmage can use Horrid Wilting if he is lucky.

Although what I'm going to write is off-topic, I'll say it anyway. Playing a Wild Mage in IA is very dangerous for two reasons:

(1) One of the possible wild surge results is that you lose all of your money and money is a big concern in IA. If you lose all the money you have near the end of a difficult battle, you will either have to live with that or will have to reload and do the hard battle over again.

(2) Some difficult battles in IA are like chess matches and require very accurate calculations. It's too risky to have a wild surge (even if a useful one) instead of your intended spell when the spell is needed.

Wild mage is the most powerful class/kit in the vanilla game (it's even ridiculously powerful); but in IA it's a bad choice to pick a Wild Mage.

Let's stay on-topic in this thread. If you want to have more discussion about Wild Mages, start a new thread.

feedback on Valygar
His story might not fit anymore if he is changed from Stalker to Protector. You might have to change some dialogues. I'm not too certain if he is all that natury either and I think the restriction to studded leather would be slightly far-fetched (though so is his vanilla chainmail armor which is restricted from Stalkers). I think you're on the right track with the generic kit abilities though.

feedback on the armor restriction
If you are changing Valygar to a protector then I would change the restriction from studded leather to chain mail. This would be much more logical since Valygar's armor is a chain mail after all (as mentioned above).
SPOILER!

It would be also a refreshment from the armor restrictions on the ranger kits and I don't think it will end up being too powerful. Stealth or no stealth, that is the question for the player between choosing to equip chain or leather.
It could maybe become too powerful in combination with the armor bonus/level, but you could possibly tone that down or have it begin or end at a certain level (starting at level 13 for instance is a very popular control mechanism).



On the other side, what bonuses do you want the protector to provide? Protection mainly for other NPCs or also the protection of self?

feedback on abilities
The current spell-abilities look fine. I could think of a few more to provide that true Protector feeling to the player.
- "Defensive Harmony" gained every 8 levels
- "Protection from the Elements" for 25% resistance (or 50%) gained at level 20ish (less powerful than the mage variant).

Perhaps I have another suggestion that is not spell-like in nature.
suggested "disadvantage"
- Does not gain the normal ranger 2 stars in dual-wielding, but gains 2 stars in sword and shield instead.
- Can only place 1 star into dual-wielding rather than 3.



other suggestions
Maybe it would be worth it to change a few level 1 and level 2 spells from the ranger epos. Some are not exactly powerful or even worth using, whereas the same mage spell levels have many possible uses. I foresee that the Protector will just memorise few different spells despite having given a few extra per spell level.

level 1: Doom, Bless, Armor of Faith... the rest is situational or plain useless.
level 2: Barkskin, Protection from Fire/Cold, Goodberries... again, the rest is very situational or useless.

Some variation here would be nice for the two new ranger classes (vagrant and protector). At the same time it would also allow druids to memorise better level 1 and level 2 spells and you did mention a while ago that in v5.1 (or v6 whichever you prefer) you were planning to improve druids and the druid stronghold.


comparison to vagrant
I think the Vagrant has a slightly too high bonus to the elemental resistances (10% might be better balanced), but otherwise he's fine. I think that if you give the Protector some unique bonuses, the players will not have to compare the two IA kits and say that either is better.

EDIT: Would you make the Vagrant specific kit available to the Protector Protagonists as well or do you intend to keep it Vagrant only (which is fine too). Thing is, if you write that he is protector of nature, I get the feeling that he would be a suitable aid to the Vagrant specific quest too.

Thanks for the good suggestions, Iroumen!

Some of your suggestions (while good ones indeed) may not be doable due to engine restrictions, but I'll keep thinking about them while testing Valygar in my current game (I have changed him to Protector for testing purposes).



I'll appreciate if you tell me about those specific dialogue lines which may need revising.

Defensive harmony is not a bad idea.

As for Protection from the Elements, it occurred to me, but I put the idea aside immediately as I didn't want the kit to have more or less the same powers of a vagrant.



Existent spells in the spell collection list can't be omitted for a single kit. Any elimination or replacement will also affect all other rangers and druids, but new spells can be added for the kit without affecting others.


Well, in first level list, we have also Cure Light Wounds which fits nicely with the Protector kit. In second level list, we have Resist Fire/Cold. The 2nd level list is not too good, but it's the same for druids as well. I was thinking of adding a new 2nd level spell for this kit. A spell which works like "Protection From Evil", but grants the bonuses not against evil creatures but against any specific "Race" the Protector chooses when casting the spell. It could be called "Protection From Specific Race".

When he casts the spell a new menu opens (just like what happens with the Spell Immunity spell) and the ranger can pick the race to be protected against (+2 bonus to AC and saves when fighting that race). Cumulative uses of the spell won't work on a single creature (neither for the same race nor for a different race). For example, the protector may choose golems or demons or or spiders or skeletons, etc and then cast the spell on a single target. This also fits well with the fact that rangers have racial enemies.

I may still implement this idea. I didn't immediately implement it for two reasons:

(1) I was not sure if it will make the kit too good or not. So, I decided to test the kit without that new spell first.

(2) Adding a single 2nd level spell without touching the list of 1st and 3rd level spells didn't look very nice to me. Of course, an alternate way is to add the spell as an innate ability rather than spell, but then it won't solve the problem of weak spells in the spellbook. I will think more about this case and I'll appreciate comments and ideas.

Of one thing I am quite sure however, Valygar will be a much more useful party member as a Protector rather than a stalker.



So far in my run-through I didn't find the elemental resistances too high. I will see how it goes on when the vagrant reaches high levels.



If you mean making the vagrant specific quest available to a Protector protagonist, then the answer is in negative for sure. The nature of that quest doesn't fit well for any protagonist except the vagrant. I can make a new quest for Protectors, but since I have made the kit primarily for Valygar, making a quest for a protector protagonist doesn't have priority. If the player wants a protector, he will probably pick Valygar.

Oh, those are many. Perhaps this is something to discuss after his new kit has been worked out. A few examples:

And he goes on and on about magic to many of the NPCs. I fear that his conversations with Lavok and the Protagonists conversations with Tolgerias (and all involved in the Hunt for Valygar quest) may be seeded with many references towards his Stalker status and thus his hatred for all that is magic.



I had not thought of it that way.



I don't think that people will mind the replacement of spells like "Know Alignment" and "Find Traps". Perhaps it's not a bad thing that spells are also changed for the other druid and ranger classes.
The new spell you mention Protection from Race seems to be very interesting. It is debatable whether you would want it as an innate or as a new spell. I would probably favour it as an innate to the protector.



I think you're likely to be correct in this.

I don't think that Valygar's comments against magic (arcane type is what he means; Valygar already had divine spells in the vanilla game) have any conflict with his new kit. But if you can find any reference to "backtabbing" (or being a Stalker) in his dialogue lines, I will surely revise it if you let me know.

Ironic that Valy can use spells whilst he dislikes it so.
A suggested disadvantage... cannot backstab. Sorry if it's already been mentioned.

I can imagine a paladin as more heal oriented than a ranger. So this protector thing would fit more to paladins imho. If you do this ranger protector, I suggest to do it mostly for Valygar, don't need more ranger portagonist quest imho. I would be happy if an another base class would be enriched by new stronghold quests, features etc. I would like to play something different protagonist in v6.0. Maybe druid, paladin or fighter (riskbreaker for example). Anyway in my next planned party there is a room for Valygar either he is stalker or protector. But this party is very cloudy yet, since I want to play a protagonist with diffrent class than ranger or mage, and this depends on what new things will you implement in the next version.

I agree with Sikret. Valygar has a special hatred for arcane magic because of his family's background. I think there was something about his mother turning into a lich as well...
But, imho, that has nothing to do with him being a Stalker. The part about him serving as a scout in the army is more important, since the basic idea of the Stalker kit is that it's based on stealth. The Protector on the other hand seems to be devoted to defending ("protecting") and aiding his companions in their fight against evil. Given that his innate abilities are healing ones he also serves as some sort of medicore "battlefield medic". So the changes - if any - would likely have to go into that direction. On the other hand the Protector can still use stealth since he's a ranger.

Barbarians! And some expanded freaking medium armor options!

heh.

But seriously, (actually I was serious), we already have so many options for rangers.
I agree with Shadan, other classes and npc's need some loving too!

All of the classes what you didn't touch has very good kits (inquisitor, swashbucker, blade, specialist mage), except the cleric. There are 3 cleric kit but they only know 2 spelllike ability. I suggest to make the protector as a cleric kit with some changes. The class can be a very good battle medic and guardian angel, so the peoples will think about choose this or the classic berserker or ranger cleric.

Thanks for the comments, all!

The idea of a new clerical kit is very good. I'll put it in my agenda.

The expression "Ranger Protector" is used in the vanilla game a few times. Even your cabin is called "Ranger Protector's Cabin". Hence, I thought "Protector" can be an ideal name for the new ranger kit.

As for why I created a new kit for the ranger class again, the reason was that I was not happy with Valygar's kit. As I said, I didn't have a good feeling with Valygar's Bakstabbing and poisoning abilities. The main goal was to change Valygar's kit. See the initial post.

Valygar and the backstab
Valygar was scout in an army so he usually was enemy territory so he needed kill the enemy in silence, but it is not sure, only possible.

Valygar and the magic
I think Valygar hates only the arcane magic, because he always speak about evil mages not evil clerics. His stalker class fits well for mage hunting because the stealth, backstab, haste and minor globe.

Valygar as a protector
I have an idea but i sent it for Sikret because if he implement it then it will be very big spoiler.
If Valygar change to protector then i think some antimagic fits well for the class, i think chaotic command (against some nasty unnatural monster and evil mage who soil the nature) as somebody said it, and/or free action (against the spiders) and/or resist magic (the max caster level of rangers is 9 so it only add 18% magic resist so they not as good then the wizard slayers). With some of these spell i believe Valygar's words when he said he fought against several mage in the past.

Yes, this is a good justification. However, when I said that I was not happy with Valygar's abilities, I didn't mean that they are not "Justifiable". I just meant that I didn't like those type of abilities and since I don't use them (though I know very well how to use them), Valygar only had disadvantages of a Stalker without its advantages in my game. I don't like to sneak and kill an enemy when he is not aware of my presence or has not fully prepared himself for the battle. Even when I play an evil party (which happens very rarely), I don't use such methods. In other words, even as an evil character, I like to show a mimimum of nobility and honor to fight fairly. And yes, I hate thief class (except swashbucklers).

Now with such an attitude (right or wrong), just imagine how bitter it could be for me to play a ranger kit whose advantages are hiding and backstabbing and poisoning. I immensely love Valygar for his family story (otherwise, I wouldn't pick his portrait ), but don't like his kit.

@Sikret
Is my PM arrived in your inbox? I wrote an idea from valygar as protector.

I didn't like the stalker too. I love better thieves for backstab and the other fighter classes for fighter.

If Valygar is good guy with honour why he doesn't help to people of Umar? He take his life more important then a village's fate?

Yes, I received and saved it. I constantly receive lots of good ideas for all kinds of additional content from players. I don't ignore any of them. They are waiting in queue. If I don't react immediately to a suggestion, it doesn't mean that it is ignored.



Perhaps, he is not even aware of what is going on there. We don't know for how long he has been inside his cabin. The deaths in Umar Hills had started only a short time before you met Delon in the city. The mayor says "We have some killings and disapperances as of late (= quite recently)".

Valygar has been in hiding for quite a while now. He retreated to Imnesvale, but even there you can find a Cowled Wizard who would recognise him if he were to show his face in town. I don't think Valygar has much choice in the matter... he has to hide out in his cabin for a while.

I thought the Stalker kit fit him very well, but if you prefer to change him then by all means do.

Btw, the term Ranger Protector is the title you are given when you accept the Ranger Stronghold. You become the Ranger Protector of the town of Imnesvale. It does sound like a solid name for a kit though.

- Gains "Cure Serious Wounds" every 7 levels.
- Gains "Mass Cure" every 9 levels.

actually i think this spells make him something like healer not a protector, choosing from lvl 5 it would be more suitable for protector to have Righteous Magic to protect others and Iron skin to protect himself. Just a thought

Hmm, isn't healing sort of protecting (from death)?

I would raise the level to 11, as he isn't a cleric... but otherwise the kit looks much better than that he had, so

hmm it depends from which point to look at it healing is needed when u failed to protect someone. or am i wrong?

I think it's just a matter of taste. All divine casters gain the spells from either the cleric or druid epos and they all encompass spells that can be grouped under protection, healing or curative magic (curative is like dispelling of negative effects like disease, poison, curses, enfeeblement, charm, hold etc).
The role of your NPC just depends on which spells you intend to memorise.
Perhaps to emphasise the protective role of the Ranger Protector, some purely protective abilities are in order (like defensive harmony, protection from evil 15', death ward or such), but it's not a bad thing to allow some healing magics as well.

That would be something to interest me - a cleric kit good enough to replace my ranger 7-cleric!

Concerning Valygar: He's not my favorite NPC, and I typically don't bring him along. However, because many of the toughest opponents are immune to backstab, I don't consider Stalker as being an optimal kit. Replacing it could give Valygar more appeal.

After reading all comments here and after playtesting the kit for a while, I revised the kit in the hope of making it more interesting and a bit more powerful to make it a valid alternate option compared to the Vagrant kit. Here is the new description (I will edit the initial post too):



My questions:

1- Do you think that the exact bonuses and penalties each version of "Racial Combat" offers need to be mentioned in the kit's description in the character's sheet? It will make the description too long.

2- Is anyone willing to test the kit and specially the Racial combat ability in practice while fighting with each of the selectable races and send me feedback about the degree of usefulness and/or balance of the bonuses compared to penalties?

Compare this new description with the one written in the previous post and tell me which one you prefer. I highlight the different sections:



Great Berries is an improved version of Good Berries and Mental Equilibrium removes confusion, stun and feeblemindedness from a single creature.

Sounds like a good trade-off. Not too big a sacrifice... and I like the sound of the two new spells.

I'm curious about the Protector; I like what I see and am interested in trying it out for Valygar.


Am I right in assuming that this package wouldn't get the arcane spells that the Stalker gets?


G-

Welcome to BWL, geh4th!



Yes, you are right. Protector is a totally different kit than Stalker.

Will there be an option to keep Valy a stalker? I suppose that would mess up his new katana, but I must say I grew quite fond of him in IA and I'll miss him as a stalker a lot. He did kill Ancient Wyrm after all...
And a question about that cloack of magic shielding - you still must have 19 con for it, yes? Will protector also have the ability to use it, or is it still vagrant only item due to the fact that dwarves and halforcs cannot be rangers.
Like the idea of vocalize for a spell a lot, too bad clerics can't cast it.

No, sorry. Our tests have proven that the protector kit is a lot more efficient than the stalker kit; so you won't hopefully miss Valygar's previous kit.

As mentioned before in this thread, his katana will have new and different abilities which fit with his new kit.



If your protagonist is not a vagrant, you won't even find that cloak in the game. But, if your protagonist is a vagrant and you have the cloak, then Valygar can also use it provided that you find some way to increase his constitution to 19.



Yes, the spell can be very useful in some certain battles.

Never even tought about Valy and 19 con.. I like that vagran armor far too much.
Noticed you wrote about adding a cleric kit.. perhaps giving him a special hla to vocalize as well

Yes I think exact bonus should be listed. All of us are very curious.

Also I prefer 2nd version of the kit cause of interesting, new spells.