Greetings All,
I have been playing the IE based games for a little under a year now, and have been having a blast since. Now that I have played through most of the basic games, I have started to dive into the BG2 and BGTutu mod communities. Now from what I hear, IA is supposedly the "ULTIMATE" BG Challenge. So, I thought it would be best if I posted here to introduce myself, and find out a little bit about IA, and the TBWL Community.

First off, I have noticed there is a bunch of controversy and back and forth talk between the G3 and TBWL Communities when it comes to their respective mods and fixes to the game. I would like to start out by saying that I don't intend on criticizing anyone according to their work, or their affiliation. I am just here to have fun and make friends, =P.

Now, I have come here to find out where I should start after I have played the original games of BG, and want to spice up the game play. Where should I start? What mods and fix packs/tweak packs should I install first? I would really like to give IA a shot, but I want to make sure that my install is completely compatible and I have all the extras I am going to need to make playing IA the most fun. Any input on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

From what I have seen and heard, It seems that Sikret has some very nice work on this site, and a lot of people have recommended me to try out his mod list, and kits. So far they have been the most recommended. So, if anyone else has any opinions on where I should start. Let me know. Thanks a bunch everyone! Be safe!

Welcome!

If you want to try IA, follow the instructions in Improved Anvil's readme (or Document-Installation.txt). It lists the incompatible and other problematic mods there from the aspect of IA. It also lists the required fixpacks and tweak mods.

As for BWL (= The Black Wyrm's Lair, but not TBWL ), we've founded it in 2004. Most of us are very busy in RL, some are completely away (but may return some day). Beside mod and software development, we also focus on theoretical research to ensure compatibility between mods and maximize player experience, but not all of our released mods reflect this yet. (Development requires time. As mentioned above, many members are away or too busy, and thus the development of several projects is slow or discontinued.) We also develop and host graphics resources for IE game mods.

Greetings and welcome to BWL, Overlord!



Thanks for the kind words. Most BG2 players have always been very kind to me (both with their suggestions and with recommending my mods to other players).



If you need any specific information about IA (what it is and what it does), you can read the mod's readme file (including the attached documents) as well as the pinned F.A.Q topic and the pinned topic for the progress report of the mod's next version. If after reading them, you still have questions you can ask me them (either in public posts or in PMs).

Since you said that you are relatively new to this game and are going to start modded games for the first time, Improved Anvil may be a bit too heavy and difficult for you. It's primarily designed for veteran BG2 players and tactical experts who have played the game for tens of times over and over again and now they want to have an entirely new experience when playing the game. I guess it's better to get started with some other mods and return to Improved Anvil later on. Moreover, I'm pretty sure that after playing some other mods playing IA will give you its true level of enjoyment and satisfaction. Of course, you can always give it a try if you want.

I would echo this. IA is a real challenge! It really is designed for players who have been through the game several times and have already honed their skills and tactics on other more 'user-friendly' mods!

If you are looking for something to make the vanilla game more of a challenge and push you to explore more of the spells/effects, try these:

Tactics - this is very modular (you can choose exactly which parts to install - don't install improved Ilyich first time through!). It upgrades the majority of the main battles (20-30 iirc), as well as improving some of the generic scripting and introducing a small number of new encounters. Most of the battles are perfectly doable, but will simply force you to stop and actually think/prepare rather than breezing through every battle.

Ascension - tactics for TOB (effectively)

Quest pack - similar to tactics, but heavier on new/altered encounters, rather than improved battles. Still a general overhaul though.

My other personal favourites:

Ease of Use
Valen NPC
Solaufein NPC
Item Upgrade

(okay, most things from Weimer's pages!)

I would actually recommend you try out Improved Illych the first time around! If you end up not liking it, you can simply uninstall that component.
Improved Illych and Improved Irenicus were actually my favorite Tactics components (by far)!

I remember staying up 16 hours straight trying to beat that final Irenicus encounter. I danced around the living room when he was finally slain... at 6am...
The dialogue was surprisingly very good!

Everybody suggested not try the IA now. I suggest try it. It is incredible difficult, specially in the beginning, but if you read the hint in this site you can solve it (the first difficult is create the PC and collect the NPC for a balanced party). If you start the IA we help you gladly.
I suggest the IA but only if you search the ultimate TACTICAL contest. If you have questions we answered their.

I also think you should give it a try.

Thank you, Ryel!

Let me clarify a bit more what I meant in my previous post in this thread:

I didn't write what I did to discourage Overlord; I wrote it as a general warning about the mod's difficulty level. When a player who is relatively new to this game starts to play IA or even when a player who has played BG2 for years but still lacks the required level of tactical skills tries to play this mod, he finds the mod a bit too difficult. That much is natural. The main point is the player's reaction to the situation. There are two possible reactions which I call them respectively "the healthy" and "the unhealthy" approaches.

- The healthy approach is that the player accepts the fact that there are things he still needs to learn. He draws a learning curve for himself and starts to learn and improve his skills through the game. Gradually, he will notice that his skills are improving, the number of reloads are decreasing and he enjoys playing the mod more and more. Improved Anvil functions as a school of gaming skills for such players.

- The second and unhealthy approach is that the player refuses to accept the fact that he is not skilled enough. Instead of trying to learn better methods and tactics, he gets frustrated and blames the mod for his failures. Comments such as "I don't like this mod because I hate reloading so many times" or "Pure mages are useless" are typical comments of unskilled players who have not taken the "learning" approach. (The player doesn't know how to play a mage efficiently, but instead of trying to learn, he decides to blame the mod for blocking the old known cheesy methods.)

To summarize my point, if a player is confident that he will take the first approach in case he finds the mod too difficult at the beginning, then I, too, heartily add my voice to yours and recommend IA even to players who are not tactical giants (yet).

Under normal circumstances this would be a completely valid response! Some people really don't like reloading! But... if you don't like reloading, IA would definately be the wrong mod to play =P

Sorry about being so slow on the reply! I have been away from home for the past several days, and have had no access to a computer =P.

Well I did not expect such a warm welcome from everyone, especially from Sikret, and Baronius themselves, =P.

From what I have read thus far, I have given it a ton of thought and I think that IA is due at least a try. There is one problem I did have when first playing though BG II, and that was its extreme simplicity. The game was, and only in my humble opinion, too easy. I have played the game on the harder difficulty levels, and I would have to say the tough battles are few and far in between. Probably one of the hardest battles I faced in SoA, would have to be Kangaxx. Unless you come with a backpack full of cheese and mega souped up characters, then you have one heck of a fight on your hands.

One thing that I like about what I have heard about IA, is that it eliminated a lot of that cheese, as Sikret said, most unskilled players use to get past battles that they would normally deem "Too Hard", or "Broken". I do agree that you should not down a mod, just because you are not experienced enough to play it to its fullest potential. In my opinion, if any mod is truly a good challenging mod, then it should take you a long time, a few dozen reloads, and a few sleepless nights before you figure out the correct tactics to beating the said encounter.

Anyway, there is one thing I can say. When a game is extremely hard, and tough to beat. Even though you may go to bed countless nights, hobbling to your bedroom in defeat. It is going to feel really good, and be ten times more rewarding when you finally defeat the challenge. As I said before, if there was one thing I thought that made my first play-through a little dull, was the lack of challenge, and I think that playing on core rules for your first time through should be considered challenging enough.

Basically what I am saying is, if IA is a challenge. Then bring it on. To be honest, I have more fun getting my group wiped and having to reload, take a snack break, walk away for a few minutes, and then come back and give it another shot. I really think that difficulty level really adds to the replay value of a game. I mean, who wants to play a game multiple times that is just click and move, click and move, without ever having to stop and think one time. I'll end my rambling here, as I am very tired from my trip home.

Thanks to everyone who replied to my post, and I cannot wait to get to know you all. Thanks, and God Bless! -Overlord

That's the right spirit, Overlord!



Very true.

In addition to the diffculty of the game, there are several more elements and features in Improved Anvil which add to the replay value of the game. Each time you start a new game with Improved Anvil, a good number of things will be different compared to your previous game-through. The randomizer program changes important items' locations each time you start a new game; and depending on your protagonist's class you will have different quests and encounters awaiting you in the game.

Haha, IA was made exactly for players like yourself.

I have the EXACT same outlook as you do regarding games!
I love the suspence of not knowing if I have the player skills (if ever) of beating a boss!
This makes villians and dastardly plots that much more real... that much more sinister... that much more epic!
I enjoy the wiping and reloading dozens of times!
All these make final victory all so much sweeter! That is... if you can achieve it.

Sometimes the bad guys win

I mean, its totally the truth!

Games today are made to be catered to this new breed of gamer that can't stand a challenge. Look at online MMO's like World of Warcraft. They make everything sooo easy nowadays. When you die, you don't lose any equipment or experience. The monsters in the game practically apologize to you if they kill you. The travel system is designed where you don't have to walk more than a few steps anywhere to get somewhere. I think its getting ridiculous how easy games are made today. I remember back in the day of playing games like Ultima Online, if you died outside of town, you lost EVERYTHING. All your hard earned equipment, money, items. God forbid you had the key to your boat that took you months to get, because who ever found it could steal your boat in a millisecond. Lets just say no one finds your corpse, depending on where you died in the world, it could take you hours just to get back to where you died. If you died deep in a dungeon with powerful monsters all around, then you just might die again, and have to do the corpse run all over again!

Anyway, I am sorry to get so off topic. I just think that gamers have been bred to be babies these days. It seems as if anything presents a challenge, that they cannot just ram through with a clickity hack'n'slash fest. Then the game is a poorly made game, and the designers must of not worked very hard on their creation since it does not put you in that super powerful god status most games these days put you in.

If anything, I praise people like Sikret who take time out of their own lives, which if you have not noticed people, are short enough already, to make modifications to a game not just for themselves, but for all of our entertainment. Even if the mod totally stunk. Just the fact that the person put their whole heart and soul into building their project, just to make the gaming experience a little more exciting for you. That deserves praise all in itself.

Anyway, I will stop my rambling again! I can tell already that I am going to fit right in here at BWL. Thanks a ton everyone, and God Bless. -Overlord

I don't think you are offtopic at all. Besides, this is your welcome to IA and BWL.

Anything should fly honestly, especially game theory and design similar to IA.

I too played have played UO back in early highschool. To this day, no online game comes close to matching the "rawness" and verisimilitude of that gem of a game (the first year or two of its release, not the watered down nonsense it is now). You had real choices and consequences. If you read around RPG fansites such as RPGcodex or No Mutants Allowed(fallout fan site), you'll see a pretty major consensus that real choices are consequences are what can seperate a good game from a cult hit. As like in UO, say you piss off the wrong group of people, they just might try to take your castle that took you a year to build. But hey, say they fail in their retribution... and you end up taking everything they ever owned. But later down the road, the same happens to you and you are left with nothing more than the shirt on your back.

I say, so be it! No need to hold my hand!
They don't make games like that anymore! At least not in the US.
I only know of the Japanese market that still makes some REALLY difficult games with no hand-holding.

I have also extensively played World of Warcraft. Though entertaining, there are really no consequences to any action. Monsters are so easy... and Raid bosses were not difficult. The difficulty in such encounters stem from the team (un)coordination due to inept players in your group, not the AI you are pitted aginst. It all felt so... carebear. I do not blame blizzard however. They designed a brilliant game around a brilliant model. It makes $$$$$$ and is genuinely fun.
Players like myself simply aren't the target audience. It's just unfortunate that *that* target audience is growing smaller and smaller these days.
(At least they still have their RTS line which is anything but carebear)

The comparison between UO and WoW can relate directly to the contrast between IA and NWN2.
If you've ever played NWN2... holy cow...
You could almost play that game one handed with your eyes closed. Yes, forum goers often complained that the difficulty was way too easy. However, people who post on forums are generally the vocal minority. Casual gamers(target audience) generally don't post. IA's challenge synergized with the Epic tale of BG2 culminated in perhaps my best RPG gaming experience since UO. I enjoyed the story of NWN2, but was almost sickened by how far games have devolved in order to cater to a wider audience.

(I hear great things about the NWN2 expansion however, and that it is night and day vs the original campaign)

But that's reality, major gaming companies cannot survive off niche interest groups. Though I personally don't understand *why* our taste in games is necessarily niche. A grand tale with a grand challenge, is that too much to ask?

Fortunately, we have wonderfully hard workers/contributers like Sikret to fill that void

*cheers*

Absolutely! - I reckon this is perhaps the aspect of IA that I like the most - the real sense of achievement from finally beating that enemy after numerous reloads. With this outlook you should be fine with IA.

and luan...don't play dungeon siege

Wow.

I can really tell that this is the site for me. We all pretty much share the same views on today's gaming industry. Not to mention that we all share the same taste in games! I just wanted to say I really appreciate the warm welcome guys, and the good conversation was much needed, Iuan. Thanks everyone, and be safe. God Bless. -Overlord

I'm glad to see you feel comfortable here, Overlord. Should you have any question, don't hesitate to ask. By the way, we also have Gaming Forums for discussions not related to our mods (such as "where can I find Kagain?"), so they can be used for any general gaming discussion about any Infinity Engine game.

Indeed, nowadays most players seem to prefer "easy" games, with less need for realism and challenge. More than a decade ago, everything was different. They weren't so terribly many games available as now, and most games were difficult. And they were good, very good. For example, I loved "The Lost Vikings", and of course a lot of other games as well. It's a pity that there seem to be so few players nowadays who look for challenge (and enjoy the challenge). Perhaps many of the players who now enjoy the ease of the current games did not play the old games at all in those times -- simply because they gave up. As far as the younger generation is concerned, nowadays they won't keep trying to advance in a harder game any more: they just put it aside, and choose another game. In older times, often there was no *other* game to be chosen. Players were much more persistent, I believe. And when they succeeded after 20 attempts, it was a relief and a feeling of real success. They gave it up less often than nowadays.

Same applies to mods, and to IE mods. As Sikret has said, many players make incorrect assumptions about the mod at the beginning (because they have no experience), and often blame the mod instead of admitting their own weakness. Of course, fun must be the most important, so if you don't enjoy something, you should stop playing it (stop trying to advance in it). However, blaming the game or mod for own weaknesses just reflects even more that someone isn't a good, keen player.

Excuses such as "enemies are five levels on me" are funny. They are similar to the comments I received about Grey Clan Episode One, i.e. that it has ToB-level enemies. Why is it a problem? What about the stories where the weaker defeated the stronger? Not with strength, of course. With tricks, wit, intelligence. The bonus of players is their intelligence against the powers of artificial enemies.

But thinking is always effort, and it's always easier to choose another game/mod than undertaking the effort. What I call "stats gaming" just makes it worse. Many players prefer checking creature, item etc. features in a game editor program. It's OK of course (everyone is curious, especially at the beginning when the possibility of checking stats is very tempting), but when statistics are used to form an opinion about a game or mod, it isn't beneficial any more. Unfortunately, some mod makers seem to support this viewpoint (stats above all, rules above all) which may influence players even more.

Why can't a game or mod be imagined as a "black box", which only has one output: "gaming experience". Sure, do check the statistics, but try to form your opinion based on what you experience in-game. The term "power-gaming" can often be heard nowadays -- what about "stats gaming"?

An attribute (such as Hit Points or Damage) is just a raw numerical value, it isn't the *unit* of gaming experience or even balance. (Not even balance, because balance has more to do with the the relativeness of these values than with the values themselves.) A rule system requires such stuff, it's a required but unpleasant thing. For example, it may ruin the gaming experience for me. I couldn't play BG and BG2 (even if I had time) any more with the same feeling as at the beginning. Not just because it isn't new, but also because I know what's in the "black box".

Ask from yourself: do I really want to know what's in that box?

Yes, this is a very bad approach and attitude which can ruin the atmosphere of the game, but many unskilled players are used to it just to hide and justify their own weaknesses. A real tactician and skilled player can find out the enemies' weaknesses inside the game instead of looking them up in an editor. Even victory has no value after you check an enemy's stats in an editor. After checking the creature in the editor, the player says: Ah, ok, so he is vulnerable to electricity; let's load the game and cast lightning on him! But this kind of victory has no value (and satsifaction). A good player is the one who can discover that vulnerability during and inside the game and that'w when winning the battle has its full level of satisfaction.

Despite the explicit warning in Improved Anvil's readme file saying that this mod is NOT for unskilled players (unless they are prepared to start learning slowly) , every now and then one such unskilled player plays the mod and since he is not honest to admit his own weaknesses, he tries to find some other kind of justifications for his failures and the easiest justification is to blame the mod.

One other point which is worth mentioning is that Improved Anvil is much more than a tactical mod. It adds many hours of additional game play with its new quests and other features such as the item randomizer; but the typic dishonest and unfair critics have usually little to say about all those other features of the mod. They have lost one or two battles and the false vision they had of themselves as 'skilled players' is dispelled and now they mostly seek revenge; so they just quit the game and go to a forum to write something to cure their own wounded and disillusioned ego.

Well.... you have changed several spells that allowed a player to overpower the AI quite well in a Vanilla installation (or call it to "cheese" the IA with simulacrum and project images). I can imagine that this can put a player off as well.

I dont know about that one!

While the cutting of spells / nerfing of excessively effective tactics , does hit hard at first - you learn ways around the familiar tactics and find new ways of approaching the fights/ improved encounters.

Which for me, is the beauty of the mod , the bigger the challenge , the bigger the resulting pay off.

IA was actually the first Mod i tried with BG2 - at first i got slaughtered , but after figuring out the right approach / learning the hard way , Ive been having a rather ridiculous amount of fun

I know lots of players who usually went through the game exploiting the free summons that simulacrum and project images provide, restoring simulacra with lesser/greater restoration, unlimited spells with wish or spelltrap and similar tactics.... since (most of) those things are removed from play in IA, some players will just complain or not play IA at all. I would welcome the challenge to change tactics, but some don't I guess.

In vanilla you can solo everything easily with a mage/sorceress protagonist (single, dual, multi) and with some difficulty with some other classes. In IA you'd be insane to try (though I'm sure it could be done if one had the patience to go through each battle a multitude of times until you stop dying).

Unfortunately, that is not so. MotB is very easy. NWN2 games could easily be very hard. The system just needs someone like Sikret (maybe just like Sikret ) to pick up the tool kit and go to work. A mini-epic campaign from L16 to L30 designed by Sikret would be a blast, complete with eye candy that BG2 simply can't provide and a ton of new variables to explore tactically (feats, skills, classes, etc.) that the BG2 system does not have. Maybe, if Sikret has any spare time after IA 5, he could help us out there too.

Joey