Imoen will appear as a sorcerer in spellhold. Her base (minimum) level will be 13. If your protagonist is high level enough she will gain additional XP to level up after she joins you. The additional spells after the level up will be chosen by the player during the game. What we want to decide over now in this poll is to determine her base spells as a 13th level sorcerer.

I have chosen most of her spells (as a 13th level sorcerer) in an optimized way for your needs in IA (as probably I know the usefulness and power of each spell in IA better than most other players). However, I want your opinions about the few remaining spell slots. Her current list of spells are as follows:

First level spells:

- Magic Missile

- Shield

- Larloch's minor drain

- Identify

- Burning Hands

Second level spells:

- Mirro Image

- Melf's Acid Arrow

- Blur

- Resist Fear

- One last spell you need to vote for and choose

Third level spells:

- Vampiric Touch

- Flame Arrow

- Remove Magic

- Dispel Magic

Fourth level spells:

- Emotion

- Ray of Fragmentation

- Stoneskin

- One last spell you need to vote for and choose

Fifth level spells:

- Breach

- Oracle

- One last spell you need to vote for and choose

Sixth level spells:

- Protection from Magic Energy

- One last spell you need to vote for and choose

As I said, if your protagonist is high level, Imoen will gain additional XP once she joins the party and may immediately level up. Those additional spells (after the level up) will be chosen by the player. What we want to determine now are her remaining spells as a 13th level sorcerer.

Note 1: I don't guarantee that I will follow the result of the poll accurately (as I still know things about the mod that voters may not know), but I guarantee that I will consider the poll as one of my main criteria for making the final decision. In other words, I have reasons to prefer some of the options to others, but those reasons are not decisive (if they were decisive I wouldn't need to create a poll) and I will surely consider the poll and your comments before making the final decision about each spell level.

Note 2: The options in the poll are written in alphabetical order. So, the order doesn't show anything about my own preferences.

I am not very well experted in high end IA, but as far as I see soreceres/mages are mostly buffers/debuffers in IA. Imho it is useless to give too much self only protection spell to a sorcerer, who mostly is sitting back in fights.
So at lvl 2 Invis is mostly useless, you can't explore too much when many mobs see invis, and invis is useless otherwise. I don't really like Luck cause of short duration. Imho Knock is the best, you can spare rogue spot from the party, or you can help weaker rogues.
At lvl 4 Minor Globe is useless imho. Was hard to decide between Spider Spawn and Impr. Invis. Since Immy is luck of summonings, and imho some cannon fodder is good, so I would chose Spider Spawn.
At lvl 5 choice was easy: Spell Imm. is self only... Dont't let your sorceror near to nasty spells. Lower Resitance is nice, and you need them many times.
At lvl 6 was a hard choice again. PfMW out of question. It needs to figher/mages not to a sorcerer. Chain Lightning is offensive spell and I think offensive spells have a lesser useage in IA (at least what I have seen till in my IA game). Improves Haste is very demaneded.

Btw this is purely metagame option. If I would chose as a roleplayer, probably I would chose a different spells.

Thanks, shadan!

Just one point:

As I wrote elsewhere, electricity-based offensive spells are most useful in IA (specially in v4.3) and that's why I put "Chain Lightning" as a meaningful option in the poll. I'm not saying that it's necessarily a better choice than the other two options however.

PS: And I certainly don't agree with the statement that mages/sorcerers are merely (or even mostly) buffers/debuffers in IA. They can still be most useful offensively if the player knows how to play with them and picks the right offensive spells. The traditional offensive methods (such as timestop + three Abi Dalzim spells) do not work any longer and that's perhaps why some players have thought that mages and sorcerers are not useful offensively. Those players have simply failed to find any new offensive methods.

I chose Invis for lvl 2 since I think it is a far better way to help out a thief than knock (which I think I have never really cast before), Luck's benefits are fairly minor imho.

4th lvl I went with spider spawn as I don't think I've used MGoI or Imp. Invis in my current game despite having them often memorised. If the player really wants Improved Invis they can use the ring of air control. Having said this spider spawn is really only useful when used with web, which you haven't taken as a 2nd level pick.

5th lower resistance - It's proved a necessity in a couple of very tough fights and is more useful at lower levels that spell immunity (the player can choose spell immunity when they need it)

6th Improved haste - #1 buff! Prot. from Magic Weapons is an awesome spell, but hasting your top 3 fighters is more effective imho. If you're lucky you can take down the shadow dragon before he casts his 1st heal

Woo, thanks Sikret, I will try Chain L. with Cernd then...
Btw, I can't imagine any other usage for offensive spells then to cast it. So choice only what type should I cast, Abi Dalzim, Chain Lightning, Prism. Spray or any else. I hope Time Stop is not completly useless btw.

Sure, but if I understood correctly, the point of players who voted for knock was not to pick a spell just to help their thieves; their point was to pick a spell to dismiss the need for a thief and to free a slot for another party member.

Also:



If more players think that "Web" is a good 2nd level option, I can replace "Resist Fear" with "Web". I won't change her other 2nd level spells, but I don't insist on keeping "Resist Fear". (EDIT: Or alternatively, I can keep Resist Fear and also pick Web as the fifth 2nd level spell (as a new choice in the poll)).

Any comments in this respect will be appreciated.

I think Resist Fear is much more useful. Against moderately challenging enemies (=good saving throws or resistances or immunities) Web is useless. Wasting an additional 4th level slot for a combo that's only effective against weak enemies doesn't sound like a good choice.

Edit: I voted Luck, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Lower Resistance and Improved Haste. Unfortunately a thief can't be replaced so easily by Knock, the party would be left with no way to disarm traps and would be forced to take the blast each and every time.

Spider Spawn + Web is great, but in that case it also really benefits from Greater Malison (I always take Malison), but then you're coming up with combos, someone else will find another kind of combo doing well....

I don't think you necessarily need to go for a good combo. Web is a low level scroll that gets tossed about on random critters reasonably often. If you want to use the web+spiders combo, then I would just cast it from a scroll. Save the scroll until the asylum. Hand them to her and you're probably not going to use the combo more times than the amount of web scrolls you have gathered by then (and will gather in future events).


I think you'd want Imoen to behave still a bit thief-like, true to the old Imoen, so knock would not be so odd. Then again, you can just give her some innate abilities.
I think there is already a hard-coded innate spell "Invisibility to self" from Quayle?.. Maybe if you want her thief skills a bit retained you can create an innate "knock" and an innate "improved invisibility" for her and give her 2 uses per day or something. That would make her a thief like before and allow her normal spell selection to be chosen the way you would normally choose with a sorceress.


EDIT: Chosen:
Knock (always helps.. what does luck do anyway?)
Spider Spawn (quite good summons, invis = always scroll for me)
Lower Resistance (just something you cast every day)
Chain Lightning (some decently high end offense would be good immediately at the start when you get her)



Btw: any news on Nalia yet? Will she be given bonus thief levels, will her thieving skills be reallocated? I'm very interested to know (since I was already playing with her next time through ).

Good points!

As for "Greater Malison", I agree that it's a very useful spell, but I don't think that it's a good choice for a sorcerer. Since, you usually don't need to cast more than one "Greater Malison" during an entire battle (and even if you want to cast a second one you are in time-trouble), I think it is best to leave the duty of casting it to a mage. Since sorcerers can learn very limited number of spells it's better to have them learn spells which may be needed more than once or twice during battles (just my opnion).


I will think about this suggestion. Any additional comments will be appreciated.


Presumably, it adds +1 bonus to THAC0, damage and saving throws for 3 rounds.


Yes, 10% of her pick pocket ability is already moved to her remove traps skill. I will think to see if there is need to do more or not. Note that boosting her remove traps skill is more needed than boosting her lockpicking ability, because there are plenty of potions of Master Thievery in the game which can temporarily boost lockpicking skill but have no beneficial effect on remove traps.

I am quite certain that I haven't discovered how to optimize my arcane caster's offensive power. Nevertheless, Imoen will be part of a TEAM. Thus, it is important to consider team efficiency rather than just efficiency of the sorcerer. For instance, is it most effective for the sorcerer to be casting offensive spells or buffing/debuffing? Although the answer may vary depending on the encounter, so far I have discovered few monsters that I could destroy with offensive magic that was worth the spell (i.e. the kensai could just hack them to death). Also, some spells are worth taking to save your bacon. Even if you have multiple casters and someone else has Remove Fear or Greater Malisson, it is sometimes helpful to have multiple casters with those spells (like when one of the casters is taken out of the fight). The bane of the sorcerer is in second edition he can not replace his chosen spells as he levels. A spell that is excellent at low level (like perhaps Spider Spawn) can be useless at high level (one whack kills), and that makes it a dubious choice. Another thing about team efficiency is Knock is only appropriate if you are not going to have a decent thief.

If I play Imoen as a sorcerer, I may redo her spells as follows (which in certain cases will also indicate my choice on the polls; however, I'm not voting because my choices are so divergent):

LEVEL 1
Protection from Evil
Friends
Identify
Magic Missile
Spook

LEVEL 2
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Web
Blur
Resist Fear

LEVEL 3
Slow
Melf's Minute Meteors
Haste
Remove Magic
Skull Trap

LEVEL 4
Stoneskin
Spirit Armor
Fireshield Red
Fireshield Blue or possibly Ray of Fracture Golem
Greater Malisson

LEVEL 5
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Breach
Lower Resistance
Sunfire

LEVEL 6
Improved Haste
Death Spell
Protection from Magic Energy
Protection from Magic Weapons
Contingency

LEVEL 7
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Mordenkainen's Sword
Protection from the Elements
Projected Image replacement maybe
Delayed Blast Fireball

LEVEL 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Spell Trigger
Protection from Energy
Incendiary Cloud???
Simulacrum

LEVEL 9
Chain Contingency
Imprisonment
Time Stop
Wish
Power Word Kill
Improved Alacrity
Energy Blades
Dragon's Breath

I also invite people's comments on these spells for a sorcerer's selection - which I feel relates directly to the subject of this poll/thread (at lower levels at least )

What I meant was that Web would be useless as a Sorcerer pick because most modded enemies are immune to Hold.

@rbeverjr: I mostly agree with your list, but I'd take Feeblemind (a lifesaver!) instead of Sunfire, Minor Sequencer instead of Fireshield and Spell Sequencer instead of Delayed Blast Fireball.

I considered Feeblemind. I generally hate save or nothing spells. The tough monsters generally save. Sunfire can be quite useful when in a special combo - against the very few opponents not protected from fire.

Minor sequencer? I find a scroll that gives this once a day and never bothered to use it much. Spell Sequencer rocks in the regular game and can still be used in the unimproved encounters. I suppose it can sometimes help in the improved encounters. Perhaps, I'll take that too, because DB Fireball just isn't as good as it is in the regular game. I'm not looking forward to having to keep another sequencer loaded though.

Yeah, the power has been significantly reduced from what it was in the vanilla game, but it still has its uses. If you can keep 1 or 2 members of an enemy party out of the way for a few rounds it can really shift the direction of the battle. The spiders are there mainly to keep the enemy from running straight out of the web before they have to make a save. Tossing a second web in with your FM and an entangle or two with your priests can make the enemy have to make a lot of saves.
Its definitely not the greatest tactic in IA, but I still consider it more useful than other spells at their respective level.

I think that it would be better to get rid of blur at 2nd level rather than resist fear because there are more effective ways to protect a sorcerer (say with mirror image or stoneskin).

Also I don't really like Immy's 3rd lvl spell picks, imho a sorcerer shouldn't be getting within striking range of an enemy to cast spells like Vampric touch, and I feel that there is a bit of redundancy with remove magic *and* dispell magic (I'd take one, and get your priest/Inquisitor/FM to cast the other on the odd occasion that it is required).

rbeverjr's picks pretty much mirror my own, but with spiderspawn in place of armour at lvl4.

Yes, I see that much by looking at your list of selected spells. Your list may be good for vanilla game but it's far from useful in IA. As I said, I have optimized Imoen's selection of spells for Improved Anvil. So, I recommend that if you decide to play with Imoen as a sorcerer in v4.3, do not change her spells with shadow keeper and try to find the right tactics with the new list of spells.

Just one example: Vampiric Touch is by far the best 3rd level spell while playing IA. It's a true nightmare for golems and other enemies with magic resistance (as the spell bypasses MR). My sorcerer is my number 1 golem slayer and inflicts more damage to golems than your Kensai can do with his biggest sword. This will be even better in v4.3 with the new 4th level spell. A brave sorcerer with Vampiric Touch and Ray of Fragmentation who doesn't just sit back casting buffs on other party members can do very well in close combats.

As I have said before, one reason for which many players have complained that IA has changed the game to hack&slash is that they have not found the new tactics to play offensively with their mages and sorcerers. They cling to traditional methods which will not work so well in IA. For example, casting a timestop followed by three ADHW will no longer kill every enemy in the area. You should read the readme about the spells' powers and use your creativity to make new tactical ideas.

Arguments for each of the 6th level spells in the poll:

1- Argument for "Chain Lightning":
It's the best offensive 6th level spell. It can damage a group of enemies and can be cast from distance. Not many enemies are resistant to electricity.

2- Argument for "Improved Haste":
You can buff your fighters with this spell; it's good.

3- Argument for "Protection From Magical Weapons":
Stoneskin is good but it can't protect you against all sorts of attacks. Considering the perspective of the brave sorcerer who gets involved in close combat to bombard enemies (specially golems) with Vampiric Touch or hitting them with the Golem Slayer rod, having this trustworthy protective spell can be a big advantage. Though one may still argue that stoneskin combined with Mirror Image will do the job against most types of golems and the player can pick "Potection From Magical Weapon" as her next 6th level spell after the level up.

More news about Imoen:

As soon as Imoen joins your party in spellhold, she will tell you about her new status. She will also tell you something more:

She will say that she has gained a new innate ability she knows absolutely nothing about. She doesn't know what the ability does and asks you to help her discover what it is in practice. You will need to discover what the ability actually does via try and error in practice. It's not easy to find out what it does. Moreover, the new ability is also randomized, which means each time you play the mod, Imoen's new ability may do different things. In other words, the challenge of discovering what the new ability does will remain new each time you play the mod. It's not the case that once you discover what it does in one game-through it will be the same next time you play. What's your opinion about these new features?

I reckon it sounds awesome! I can't wait to try it, keep us posted.

And I really gotta try out Vampric Touch...Golems are actually the one enemy type where I get my sorcerer into mellee, so this will be a definite pick for next game..wait, I'll be using Immy next game, so I'll be forced to (good kind of forced though )

Sikret,

That would be soo cool!


The idea to randomise the innate ability and to experiment with it until you find out what it does is really innovative. It does spur a few questions though.

Does the innate have a name, and does that name change once you find out what it does?
Are there banters involved after a certain amount of failed experiments, or is there a banter after having found out what the innate does? I think something would be nice to have a banter discussing the progress if you keep failing and it would be good to have some concluding banter if you do finally figure it out.
I'm certain that you've already scripted such things, but now that you've excited my curiosity, I cannot help but ask.




Concerning the spell selection.

I think the debate concerning the high level spells is probably not very important. Once Imoen levels the player will be given the opportunity to pick whichever spell they prefer, and if your party level is much different from Imoen she will level up immediately allowing the player to immediately pick those spells they want.


Concerning the choices.
Lower Resistance is a spell that 90% of the player uses, even those people that prefer Spell Immunity. People who prefer Spell Immunity pick it before Lower Resistance, but they end up with both anyway. Lower Resistance is just a utility spell that is a waste 'not' to have.
I would therefore give Imoen Lower Resistance and let the player decide whether they want Spell Immunity or not (I am likely to pick Spell Immunity on the level up). This would probably allow more players to use tactics they are familiar with.

The 6th level spells are all very useful and I can think up tactics for all of those. It would not be a hamperment for me if two 6th level spells were pre-chosen for me (prot magic energy + 1 out of 3 listed above). Seeing as we get to choose 3 more 6th level spells after I think there is little to worry about and you can probably just go with that which is voted for the most.

The most important debates are the 2nd and 4th level spells. Whatever the final result may be, I would not go with both invisibility spells. There is just no need as a sorceress. Knock would make Imoen remain a little bit of a thief and allows players to take a lesser thief with them (for instance Nalia), but of course if her Innate ability were thieflike then maybe knock isn't necessary anymore. We still get a 4th level spell, but players probably all have their own preference for that last one, sooo..... chosing between spider spawn and improved invisibility is a tough one I guess.

Well, the difficult thing to implement banters about the new innate ability is how should the game realize that you have figured out what the ability does. You may discover what it does at some point but there is no way to check it to see whether you have discovered it or not.

As for the abilities name, I am thinking of giving it a vague name which suits well with all of its possible random forms (both before and after the discovery of what it does). Its name will be the same in all random forms. Something like: "From Deep Inside" or "Imoen's miraculous Endeavour" or something like that. Any suggestions for its name will be most appreciated.


I agree with everything you wrote.

BTW, Agannazar's Scorcher has also occured to me as a good 2nd level option.

Ah yes, I thought that would be difficult indeed. I hadn't fully thought about it, not having delved into the deep shadows of modding business. Maybe a name like "Imoen's Intuition" would be suitable..... or no wait, I guess intuition means you already know what it does.

Well don't throw rocks at me yet, as I have yet to complete my second complete run through of Improved Anvil. The spell list that I presented was useful in IA - even if it could be made more optimal. Incidentally, my list for the vanilla game is different from this list and concentrates much more on offensive spell power.

My kensai is quite effective against golems; so, I am anxious to try the drain spell on golems if that should work even better. In fact, I think I may take my ToB group and CLUA in some of the tougher monsters to try out Imoen's spell list. Even so, I must keep in mind that spells which do little damage may not be good enough in the late game and so not worth a spell slot. I'm sure Sikret has considered this, and no one should know which spells are more effective in this mod than him. So, I need to run my little experiment to explore these spell's utility.

I didn't mean to. I apologize if my tone sounded in that way. You (native English speakers) should put up with the rest of us as sometimes what we write may have implications we didn't mean to imply.

As for trying/testing the list of Imoen's spell in practice, my suggestion is to wait for v4.3 to be released as my list is optimized for IA considering the recent tweaks I have applied to spells.

Just a request, any chance at all that the Imoen sorcerer change could be an optional component. Personally always seen Immy as a rogue and would prefer to for go this particular change.

@rbeverjr:

If you want to try/test Vampiric Touch on golems and compare it with your Kensai's physical attack, you can do it even now before the release of v4.3. To do so, use the following Console cheat and conjure an Admantite Golem:



In fact, the difference is so considerable that it has made me think to add some resistances to golems to help them withstand better.

What about having the term "Subconscious" in the ability's name: Imoen's Subconscious [something] or even "Subconscious [something]" (without having Imoen's name in it). But what term should be there instead of [something]?

PS: one more point which is worth mentioning is that if you don't start a new game after installing v4.3, Imoen will not gain this new ability in your current game (no matter if she is already in your party or not). If she is already in your party, you will need to return to a saved game before having here for the main feature to work and change her to a sorcerer properly, but even this will not help for having the new innate ability.