Thought I'd start a thread discussing must forge items introduced by IA, so new players can decide where to spend their precious gold on.

Must forge items

1. Boots of impr haste - With belm in off hand, and gauntlets of extraordinary spec, its like having permanent GWW activated! Whats not to like? With these boots, you are free to take multiple critical strikes.

2. Memory of the Apprenti - 3 extra spells per level. With specialist class, thats 4 extra spells per level. You could stand forever in the midst of the most powerfull melee monsters and emerge without a stratch.

3. Holy avenger - When multiple RoR still dont work, never fret, holy avenger is here! Combine with time trap and a WW for extra effectiveness.

4. Improved Cat Figurine - Greater restoration on steriods, without exhausting the user. Enough said.

I havent gotten around to forging more weapons yet,so no opinions there for now.

By the end of TOB I had forged pretty much everything I wanted but the three I found most useful have to be:

1. Boots of improved haste, same reasons as above, just forged them for korgan in my new game

2. Greater Dijinni summoning ring, that Dijin can really take some damage, great for tying up groups of enemies in some of the tougher battles.

3. Flail of Defending and Wounding, give it to valygar and combine with armour of faith and hardiness for some useful resistances.

Cat figurine is pretty good if you dont have a pure class cleric and valygars new armour is very nice too. Cuttthroat plus five is also handy as it means you dont have to equip a plus two weapon to get that extra attack.

News about items in IA v4.3:

(I) Usabilities:

1- Boots of Improved Haste will be usable only by rangers (rangers are scouts); however, if you upgrade the boots one step further to "Boots of Agility" (see the items file) then it will become usable by all (except monks) again.

2- Flail of Defending and Wounding will be usable only by single class rangers (unlike the boots of Improved Haste, the flail won't be usable by Ranger/Clerics --I have my own justification for this difference).

3- Holy Avenger will not be usable even by thieves who have "Use Any Item" ability.

4- "Judgement Day" and "The Truth" swords will not be usable by Fighter/mages (and other multiclass fighters) any more. Only single class (good) warriors can use them. thetruth had asked this from me even before the release of v4.2 but I had forgot to implement it. Now it is done for v4.3

(II) New item upgrades:

1- Keldorn's armor can be improved.

2- A new item upgrade is added which is specific to Vagrants. (A new armor is added to the game which is only usable by vagrant and stalker. It can be upgraded but only a vagrant protagonist can upgrade it.

Personally, I have always thought that the UAI HLA was a bit much any way. Then I met, IA and decided differently. I am disappointed by the first 2 changes because I feel like any class could benefit from the boots of IH (75,000 cheaper than the other boots) and that any class that could use a flail could benefit from the FoDW. I don't particularly like rangers. This rule change will force me to dump the use of FoDW before I really wanted to, or stick to v. 4.2 for a while.

Mhm... may we ask why you decided this? While I can try to understand the thing about the boots the other changes seem odd to me. Neither do I understand the restriction concerning the flail (why should only a single class ranger be capable of wielding the flail, which was forged using ingredents anyone can use?) nor do I get the part about the two swords. While I'm still not even close to forging them it's strange that only "real" fighters can use them. Well at least that's my feeling about it. The Truth (sword ) is some weapon of "a long lost high level warrior" (or something like that) iirc, so that makes sense, somehow. But why deny F/Ms etc. "Judgement Day"? It's a weapon one would likely get in the end of the game anyway, so what's the big deal? (*cough* on the contrary: What's the big deal with it being destined to be wielded by "true" warriors only if one gets it that late? )

I think the justification for denying Holy Avenger from thieves is clear enough. As for F/Ms not be able to use those two poweful swords, it's because F/M has already proven itself to be the most powerful class in IA. These restrictions can probably balance and fill the gap of power between F/Ms and single class warriors. I'm sure that F/M is still one of the best choices even with these restrictions. I also wanted to add bonuses to rangers to encourage players to play with them. In general, these changes are mainly aiming for filling the gap (power-wise) between some different classes.

This is a very bad idea. Many more bugs of the original game are fixed in v4.3 (such as the bug with spell shield). Always play IA with its latest version; otherwise, you may face bugs which wouldn't exist in your game if you had upgraded the mod to its latest version. (To be able to use a flail and a pair of boots by a non-ranger character is not so much of a bonus for which you want to stick to v4.2 and miss all of the other new and important changes.)

Sikret, any plans on when you are going to release 4.3?

It's almost done. I just need to test the new guardian I have added to the level 3 of WK more carefully. Since he offers many dialogue options to you and since his reactions varies with different things you may tell him, it requires a thorough testing. Not to mention that my free time for modding/testing is too short on these days. (I was also thinking of doing something about Lilarcor not to be so easily available early in the game, but I doubt that I will find the time to do it for the forthcoming v4.3.)

As a side note: Players who are in the middle of a game with a vagrant ranger or a cavalier paladin will need to start a new game after updating the mod from v4.2 to v4.3 (others won't need to start a new game); so, if you are just about starting a new game, either don't choose any of these two kits or if you want to choose them wait for v4.3 before starting your new game.

I wonder if it was a bad idea to talk about the virtues of these two items (boots and flails) in the first place. The boots are nice early on to keep improved haste from being dispelled, particularly for those playing a fighter hero. By ToB, it's only a convenience. The flail, on the other hand, is very nice. (So nice that I was hoping to be a good enough tactical player to give it up someday.) I hate to be forced to play a ranger when I don't won't to do so, but I think I'm too poor a player to survive without the uber equipment that Sikret provides. I find my skill to be lacking in some battles - like Yaga-shura (other than the Demon Prince, this battle is the first real frustration since the underdark). Apparently, I need this uber equipment to survive - at least until I learn better tactics. I also wanted to avoid using the judgment day sword, because I thought it was too powerful - and extremely hard to win too as I found out, but Yaga-Shura has me rethinking that issue... I'll have to think about perhaps sticking to the "bad idea" of v 4.2.

Concerning balance and using items to bolster the power of specific classes, I think that's fine. (My gripe is that if anyone should be able to use a weapon, it is the fighter [straight, dual, or multi]. Ranger-only weapons seem weird to me.) Unless fighting demons, I'm not sure that thetruth longsword is a big advantage. On the other hand, the judgment day longsword is huge on balancing the power of the fighter with the fighter-mage. I think the fighter-mage should still have the edge though because he can buff and keep those buffs up with immunity abjuration and spell shield (as well as the tactical advantages of a large array of spells). For this balance to occur; however, the player must be good enough to beat the demon prince. I think I may have to go back to my save game and try some more on that demon prince...

Can't say I like these changes either. It feels like a cheesy way to force players to play certain class, and IMHO an ineffective one at that.

I dare say that not many people will play the same protagonist for a second time, so your comment about making other class more attractive seems rather moot. In fact, as I read through this forum, not too many people are using f/m or r/c as their protagonist either. I would say that applying more of your excellent extended stronghold quests to other class would prove to be more lucrative, no matter how underpowered that class may be.

I fail to see how making f/m unable to use those 2 swords will significantly help to bridge the power-gap either. Hence, I really doubt it will sway people away from people who hasn't really played f/m before.

Carsomyr, in my experience is not really useful even with time-trap. But part of this is perhaps because I upgraded it very late in SoA and by that time timestopping is not always a good idea, nor were there too many mages encounter left. Still though, I like the idea of UAI staying as it is, nerfing it just doesn't seem right considering how underpowered they already are compared to other classes.All in all, a change I don't really mind too much.

Now, the boots. I'm really against this change. IIRC unlike v3, you can only forge a pair in the entire game, and as others stated this is more like a convenience item rather than anything else. In the early level, this is a great jump in allowing your party to finally experience a "fun" epic encounters, rather than getting frustrated watching your whole party swing at that last stripped-of-all-protection monster, and yet unable to beat its regeneration rate. Also, forcing the upgrade to boots of agility really mess up with the way you play the npcs. Almost all of them require the gauntlet to be even remotely acceptable as a tank in IA, and there's only one pair in the game IIRC. To be frank, again this feels like a really desperate attempt to force players to use ranger, which most people already use anyway for the new contents.

Most of all though, I'm just really worried if this is any sign of the direction this great mod is heading. I really would prefer to see more new encounters, using different tactics, rather than more nerfing. Just my 2 cents.

PS : Off topic, but was the druid spell progression changed ? In my game Jaheira just hit that elusive level 15 druid and she didnt receive any additional lvl 7 spell?? IIRC druid received a huuuge power jump upon finally going over that 1.5mil exp wall. She's 16 now and still no sign of more lvl 7 slots =\

This is strange, she should have one 7 level spell at 14 level and six at 15 level. I had Jaheira in my party and she didn't have a similar problem.

Those who have installed the Unnerfed THAC0 tables and pnp spell progression component of Ease-Of-Use won't receive those huge number of spells when their druid hits level 15.

Ah,that explains it.
Thanks Sikret.

Really? I thought that the PnP spell progression of EoU followed the 2ed rules.
And in the 2ed Druids do receive this huge number of spells when they reach level 15 (six 7 level spells).

Is it so bad to play a game the way you want to? It is after all my (and our) time that we are spending on it. Is the goal here to put out something that people can play or drive them away from it? It seems like a general goal of IA is to slash some classes and elevate others. To elevate others is a fine idea and one that I agree with, just not at the expense of the other classes, not in the way you are suggesting.

More pointedly, for your changes:

1) Judgement Day sword: I agree, its benefits best suit a fighter type class, the F/M can get those abilities anyway.

2) thetruth longsword: Questionable, I don't see it tipping the scales of power that much, it is good against the outer planar beings, a decent sword otherwise.

3) holy avenger: nuff said

4) flail and boots: My above statement holds for these two. A clear example of limiting all other classes.

For we that are not super at this game those boots actually give us a chance to beat some of the more difficult encounters before spellhold, for instance for the tough battles where the enemy has resistances to most weapon types, (golems, torgal, ect.) one logical way of countering this is to have more attacks, in this way we can at least have a chance.

As someone said earlier, to try and get players to play different classes, elevate those classes by expanding their stronghold, or as I suggest implementing new items for them only, not limiting already established items.

Romulas

Amen to that

Hey it's not Sikret's fault for that!
I had asked him to make it usable only by single-classed, good-aligned "warriors".

It's just how I see the sword,though I can't justify it's usage only by pure warriors ( ) But anyway, as you said, it's not even so powerful compared to other weapons (even some of the original game).

I agree with your other points though.

The Holy Avenger should be usable only by Paladins.
As for the Boots, for me they shouldn't be in the game at all, but that's an other issue.

I'm of 2 minds concerning Holy Avenger; so, I don't really care where this issue falls. I think that Holy Avenger should only be used by paladins. If I was as good a tactical player as thetruth, then I would stick to that opinion. On the other hand, a swashbuckler can presently use Holy Avenger more effectively than a paladin and can contribute more to the team in my opinion. Now if the inquisitor cast Remove Magic instead of Dispel Magic....

Concerning the longswords, I don't see it as reasonable to limit *a* longsword to pure fighters; however, these items are unique and could have special properties just like a holy avenger. (And an explanation of this restriction could be detailed in their description.) I don't think it will effect my game much either way. As it is now, anyone that can take the judgment day sword probably doesn't need it anyway. But then again, maybe a lot of reloading on that one encounter can save reloads later. That's what I'm counting on.

As someone pointed out before, making an item from ingredients usable by anyone into an item that is limited to a class doesn't make sense to me. This applies to boots. Rangers are scouts; so, they should have boots of improved haste? A scout could benefit from the tool of boots of speed (as could other folks), but boots of improved haste are for killers. The same reasoning also applies for the flail. Anyone who can use a flail can use the defender of easthaven, except when it is improved?

At any rate, the expressed opinions on these matters seem to be a consensus. So, there's not much more to say. It's up to Sikret.

Just checked my copy of 2nd edition "Player's Handbook" and didn't find six 7th level spells for 15th level druids. Druids actually use the same table that clerics use. I don't have access to the companion books at this moment though. Have I missed anything or is my book outdated?

Limiting the usability of powerful item is a step towards what you have in mind. I will also make the boots and the flail more difficult to forge for the next version (i.e. I will change their forging recipes). I am also thinking of nerfing the flail a little bit.

As for forcing players to play with rangers, I really fail to see how these changes can be interpreted in this way. You can always give those boots (or the flail) to Valygar or Minsk without being forced to pick a ranger protagonist. Adding the new kit to the game was to add new flavor to the game and to *encourage* (not to force) players to think about playing a ranger as an interesting class, however.

As for the other changes, I think that they can (at least to some extent) fill the gap of power between F/Ms and other classes.

Note that thetruth has completed the game without using any of the mod's items, which means that you can enjoy playing the mod without concentrating on the items and without depending on them. All of the battles are doable without those items.

All this said, all of these changes are reversible. If in the future I see that limiting the usability of those items were not a good idea, I can change them back again. The whole issue is not really very important. Let's try enjoying the content of the mod, instead . Some new contents are also added to IA v4.3. They are in testing stage.

I said that it's a bad idea to play an older version of IA because there are always more bugfixes in the latest version of the mod which didn't exist in the older versions. I'm not talking about the mod's own bugs (because they are few and non-critical), but mostly about the vanilla game's bugs which I fix in every new release. If you play an old version, you may face bugs which would not have existed in your game if you had updated the mod to its latest version. Yes, it is your game and your time. If you want to play the game with more bugs, feel free to do so. I apologize if I said that it's a bad idea.

Ehm I don't know. From my Player's Handbook:

It sure sounds like your reasoning for all this is: If thetruth can do it then everyone can. In an ideal world that might be a lofty aspiration but in reality very few will get to that level.

IMHO that is a bad way of building something, you limit the exposure of things when you build them for the very best and not for the median of your audience. If your goal is to make a restrictive mod I think you are getting closer to the goal.

I will deal with more "vanilla" game bugs in order to have more choice in how I play the game. In our adult lives many times we have to surrender some of our options in one form or another, I will not when it comes to my free time and playing this game of which I do for entertainment and not for competition with others.

Romulas

@Romulas

There is really little left to be dicussed on this issue. It's a choice you (as the player) should make for your game. If not using three or four items (with some classes) can influence your enjoyment of the game in such a big negative extent that you prefer to cope with the bugs of the vanilla game, then keep the current version of the mod and do not update it when the new version is released.

But one other way to think about it is that these few items might even not have existed from the beginning. Wouldn't you play IA if there were no Boots of Imp. Haste? Does everything in the game so seriously depend on a pair of boots, a flail and two swords?

I guess the question for me is whether this is a general move in making IA even harder (let's face it, it is already by far the most difficult BG mod in existence - Tactics and Ascension can't hold a candle to it). As thetruth has pointed out before, Fighter-Mages are the most powerful class in IA, and personally, I just managed to scrape through a few of the battles, and my F/M with the Boots+thetruth longsword (+improved Cutthroat) was one of the decisive factors. I might be able to go through again with an F/M without the first two of those items, particularly now knowing what to expect from IA, but I am slightly concerned that these changes (and any further nerfs or restrictions) might tip the balance for me from "only just do-able" to "impossible".

My other misgiving about restricting items to specific classes is that it takes away what is part of the fun of IA - which is saying to yourself "which of these wonderful items shall I forge"? given a finite amount of gold. The more items are class-restricted, the more players will be nudged towards particular item-forging choices.

So for me it is less about "does everything in the game so seriously depend on a pair of boots, a flail and two swords" and more about whether future versions of the mod will become even more difficult, and with (essentially) more limited item choice due to class restrictions.

cheers

coaster

Coaster, I think that greater difficulty is entirely the direction that IA is going. Version 4.0 was much, much tougher than v. 3.0. With all the changes detailed and hinted at, I expect v. 4.3 to be tougher than 4.2 (although fixing the spell shield may be a tremendous help). And like Romulas, I'm concerned that the difficulty of the game may be set to challenge the most skilled players. Regardless, it's my ambition to develop my skill quickly enough to keep up with the increases in difficulty.

Part of my problem in achieving this ambition is time constraints. The difficult battles seem to be taking me a very long time to complete. Reloading is costly in precious real time, which I have very little of. (Thankfully, I haven't had to reload too much after the underdark, in general.)

I have enjoyed v 4.2, in general, up to now (haven't yet made it past Yaga-Shura); so, thanks again Sikret for the mod. However, the mature, sensible part of me is complaining that I am spending too much time playing instead of working. I'll probably limit play time more in the future, which certainly won't help me become a better player. Oh well, I'll deal with it.

More difficulty!
That's why there are previous iterations of the mod to use as practice to hone tactical skills!

You make a valid point and good question. The swords and flail for me are not the real issue, its the boots. After spellhold the boots are less of benefit than they are before. I cannot fathom standing in the planar sphere trading punches with your resistant golems and being able to do more damage to them than they can do to me. Keep in mind this run through the only non-vanilla item that I am using is the improved boots. With a party best AC of -14 I last about 4 rounds with torgal and his one lone gem golem.

But as you hinted the point is moot and I withdraw from the discussion.

Romulas

While I'm still working on my first (buggy) game of IA and haven't yet gone to Spellhold I don't really see any reason why pure rangers should be limited to using the flail. Are they that much weaker than even an R/C? I may be wanting to use the flail myself when I get a chance, but I'm not sure that I really see this change as justified as even my R/C doesn't seem more powerful than Keldorn, who's also in my party.

And if F/M's are really so powerful in comparison to other classes than perhaps you should restrict them from using the robe that can be used only by protagonist mages (whatever the hell it's name is!)

And I do think that the Holy Avenger should be limited to paladins only. Not even thieves with their UAI ability should be able use them. One thing I like about some of IA's powerful items is that they are limited by either class or name.

Just like to agree with Sturmvogel on that point about the memory of the apprenti, fighter/mages really dont need it plus it being the ultimate mage artifact makes sense it should be restricited to pure class mages.

As for the new limitations Sikret has suggested, the three sword changes are certainly a good idea, it always seemed ridiculous to have thieves of all people using carsomyr.

When it comes to the issues with the flail and boots it seems people are exagerating the effect these will have on the difficulty its only two items after all. In addition if your worried about the diffculty being excessive just wait for your second playthrough, you'll find once you've got to grips with the IA system that the game is alot easier. I'm midway through throne of bhaal on a second runthrough with a thief/fighter protagonist and this certainly the case for me, even the toughest battles are not too hard this time.

Took the words out of my mouth, or the letters away from my fingertips. Anyway....this is very true, I've played IA about one and a half times, and it is markedly easier on the second run-through.

I don't think people should get hung up on how difficult battles seem initially, that's the entire point. If you could breeze through the game without a single reload, then the mod would be boring. That's why I welcome all the effort sikret puts into making the tactical challenges varied, hell, in 4.0 he even adjusted some of the existing tactical content just so it wouldn't be boring.

Pat on the back for that man, I say.

I'm not as concerned with the old hats at Improved Anvil. If you are repeat players, then you have learned enough to survive. What about new players? Don't you want new players? Do you really think that any thing but Improved Anvil can prepare you for Improved Anvil? Where is the location that you can download past versions of Improved Anvil? I would strongly advise new players to learn Improved Anvil 3.0, before trying to deal with IA 4+, because I think many (not all) new players will become frustrated with a difficulty level far beyond that they have ever encountered before. Alternatively, where is the hint file to provide new players some suggestions on handling the most difficult battles?

What would make me happier is to make prot from magical weapons and mantles to be the sole property of single class mages not multiclass demons, multiclass liches, etc. That restriction doesn't make any more sense than some of the item restrictions to me. A mage (whether multi, single of dual) should be able to cast a mage spell. Still, constant spamming of these spells is costing me too much real time. (Oh, and of course I try normal weapons, but that sometimes doesn't work either.) Just give the demons, physical resistance if you want and take away the spell from them.

Well... indeed you do not force players to choose class X. But you may force them, mayhaps, to choose certain party members. There aren't that many good aligned single class warriors around. In fact what annoys me about the Judgement Day plot, or rather IA in general, is that the player is much better off if he chooses to play a good guy, rather than being evil. Being evil has some disadvantages, such as not getting your hands on items like Judgement Day or The Truth for you cannot wield or forge them.
Maybe you could think about creating something for the badguys as well? Being good is so tiresome at times.

Fill the gap? That's odd. You argue that some of IA's items aren't that important for having a good IA-experience and stuff, one shouldn't restrict himself to those few items etc.:



BUT they actually "fill the gap" between F/Ms which is a too strong class anyway if the restrictions are changed. So, restricting the F/M (and other) classes from using these über powerful items adds some balance, while they aren't that important for that matter anyway? Huh? So they ARE so very powerful that they change the IA experience (via "balance" issues) in the end? (I'm sorry if it ins't quite clear what I'm trying to say - English isn't my first language)

Why should I (or rather anyone) *care* what thetruth did? Why should I or anyone else care what some other player did? Tell me please. Is this some comparison now? Or some "if I can do it, you can do so as well" competition thingy? Sounds strange to me.
And of course all those battles are doable without these items - it would be an ridiculous excuse for high difficulty fights if they weren't, no? I mean, if one really needs to have item X to stop being frustrated because he constantly loses to enemy Y then something is really wrong, imho.




These items weren't in the original game, that much is true. Well, what else wasn't there before? Ah, right:

- no enemies with ridiculous resistances to likely everything, mostly because they can have them or because it makes them "tough" (yep, those [half-]elven X/Y/Z multiclass guys sure have some tough skin. I want that skin as well )
- no weird golems (with resistances to mostly everything, of course) gating themselves into likely every battle with some mage involved. I guess there's some demiplane-of-golems-nobody-ever-heard-of-who-really-hate-the-protagonist?
- no enemy with such crazy regeneration. I mean, seriously: as with the resistances everybody and their brother (not to mention grandma ) regenerates. Sometimes like hell. I remember the Horrid Rakshasa in the sewers: Chop him up until he reaches near death status. "*PANIC!* OMG! I'M DYING! WAAAAH!" and he ran off. Only to come back fully healed, throwing some more Horrid Wiltings. I repeated this like... *remembering* uh... 3 times? Yay!
- no epic level guys wherever you look. Hey, those 2X/2X F/Ms, F/Ts etc. really are common in the realms, now aren't they? Strange that they stick to places like the Atkathla sewers though, instead of taking over the whole city o.O
- no mages using exactly the same rather "rare" high level spells. These scrolls of Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, ADHW, PfmW (those especially, as well as Breach and the like) etc. are really common, are they not?
- etc. (*cough* need more ideas *cough* )

See what I mean? While those items actually help in the battles, they mostly do so because they rebalance the whole thing a bit. Instead of having that nasty guy wiping the floor with you using the best spells or some highly enchanted weapons in combination with his weird resistances (including high magic resistance. Common as well these days, no?) and regeneration rate you can actually wipe the same floor with him, using superior tactics (he's just some sort of bot, after all ) and eventually superior items. Well some more of those superior items than before, actually.
As Romulas pointed out, items such as the Boots of Improved haste can actually make a change, because the I.H. isn't dispelled, lasts "forever" or whatever. So one can beat these nasty - really hard hitting - enemies with some more attacks.
As for me, btw, I didn't forge anything before I left the Underdark. Actually after some time needed to get used to IA and after gaining some useful equipment ("Hey, let's beat on those golems with our mighty Mace +2! I need +3? Oh maaaaan... *sigh*") IA is... easy. Sorry, but there are/were very few encounters (yes, most where left for the time after the Underdark) now/then which really provided a challenge. At least in SoA (let's see what ToB's battle package looks like, yay!). The Twisted Rune was one of them. Kangaxx, for example, took some minutes. I didn't really buff before, just wanted to see if he's much stronger -> determine whether I need some more levels. Well, he wasn't that strong. I was kinda puzzled o.O
Fun nevertheless.

... whatever...

Now, back to the quintessence (if there ever was one) of my message:

- those longswords (especially The Truth [sorry, thetruth ^^]) aren't that important. I still think it's strange to limit them to single class warriors, specifically the Judgement Day sword. Why? I guess it's some highly magical, maybe even intelligent o.O, blade. Why would it want to be wielded by non magical "barbarians" only? Why would a fighter who's able to use the arcane to his advantage be unable to wield it?
- the boots... thinking about the whole issue again the following question came to my mind: Why would a scout be the only one able to wear boots which do nothing normal Haste/Boots of Speed wouldn't do BUT double his attack rate? He's as fast as with Haste/Boots of Speed. He's attacking much faster. So he's no longer a "scout" (which would be a rogue type anyway, but that's just me) but a killer, given his attacks per round and THAC0. Weeeeird o.O
- Carsomyr.. yep. My oppinion didn't change on this subject. Maybe silly me didn't mention it before, but I'm actually fine with it (w00t? ). Carsomyr is a holy blade. Some rogue shouldn't be able to wield it - for example it may "jump" out of his hands when drawn to do battle, because he's not pure enough (of heart, or whatever -> iirc rogues aren't allowed to be LG?). Maybe it turns against him?
- concerning the flail I'm not sure what to think. On one side another good flail is a good thing. But on the other hand this one's really powerful . Then there's this restriction thing: it's still not logical for me. Just another pseudo balance thingy. Like I said: when a change for "balance" is sooo needed (and related to this item) is it really that great? Does it really change so much, because one item (well, four *sigh*) is/isn't usable by certain classes? An argument usable for pro and contra, eh?

@Arkain

I wonder why you even install and play IA with such a negative perspective you have in mind about the mod. You described almost everything with adjectives such as "weird", "ridiculous", et al. If the mod is so bad, changing or not changing two or three items cannot have any significant effect. I strongly recommend that you uninstall IA and do not care anymore about what I do for the next version of the mod.

Come on Arkain, now I think that you are exaggerating .

Criticism is good and nice, I even agree with you about the restriction of some weapons, but I think that your last last post was a bit overdone.

And besides you knew very well that Improved Anvil is a mod that adds challenge to the game. Maybe it makes the game too difficult for some players (I don't argue with that), but if you really see IA as you described in your last post I don't see what Sikret can do about this.

Um... neither sarcasm nor negative criticism allowed?
I actually don't really like your methods, mostly those hefty resistances etc., because imho those are, well, (as already mentioned above) "weird". Everyone and their brother got those for apparently no reason. If one's fighting a magical beast such as a dragon because one could argue it's the beasts hide, or it's origin or whatever giving it these bonuses. Sorry but I simply can't imagine why everybody's in the epic levels and got those rather high (or medium, or whatever) resistances to various elements, all sorts of physical damage and magic if not from their equipment. Maybe it's something in the water. Get my point?
Due to you not cheating or doing whatever to make the battles (more) challenging but relying on clever scripts it's getting more interesting from the strategical point of view. The challenge provided is quite nice as it's something different. The "run" I'm doing at the moment will be finished, at last, mostly 'cause one might be sorry if he doesn't finish the IA at least once. Maybe one more or two or...
If you wish, I might give you a review afterwards - as originally planned - but if you don't want to hear it when someone doesn't like everything about the mod, and even DARES to say so: tell me now. Would save me the time needed for writing, although you might wonder about my actual opinion apart from the one presented above.

[edit] Yep, maybe it's a bit overdone . But maybe Sikret didn't read the "Fun nevertheless."?
Now, why have I written the post at all? Because those were my first thoughts after some playtime, actually. That it's mostly so hard because the enemies are so much "stronger" (levelwise) it's not funny even more + they get those tough golems or whatever to join the fight. Oh, the golems did me some favor by the way: I'm thinking more about switching weapons, or rather damage types, because it's actually important.
As IA still isn't finished for me the opinion expressed can change, of course, to the direct opposite or whatever. One more reason to keep on playing. [/edit]

We have discussed this before.

I agree that humans' resistances can not be "justified", but as I have already said, even the best scripts (and IA does have the most intelligent enemy scripts of any other mod out there - I don't even argue that) is not enough by itself to reach that kind of difficulty level that Sikret and many other players want.

I repeat the difficulty can be sometimes really frustrating, but I think that the players who decide to install IA already know this, so it's the player's decision to play or not with IA.

And besides I think that Sikret has already in mind to do sthg for those players how find IA too difficult. Just have some patience please








Yes I understand, but keep in mind that a page of "negative" comments is not the best for a modder to receive for his work .

Especially for someone like Sikret who has dedicated all of his free time for IA (just look guys how many new things has Sikret done only by himself in such a small time-span, from IA3 to IA4 - it's really admirable).

And besides Sikret has already demonstrated that he does pay attention to player's feedback/criticism. IA is based also on that.

I think this is the bottom line about the resistances enemies have. I have already proven that I can write the most intelligent scripts for enemies; so, adding the resistances to them is not an excuse for not writing good scripts. Good scripts are already there in the mod. However, as thetruth has mentioned repeatedly, writing smart scripts is far from enough to make the game challenging enough.

As for regeneration rate some enemies have, I have already justified it as a necessary anti-cheese precaution in one of previous posts.

If someone doesn't like the mod in such a big degree, there is no point for him to argue over the usability flags of three items. This thread is about items. So, your post was mostly off-topic, Arkain!

Also, constructive criticism and suggestion (as distinct from sarcasm) is soemthing I really look for provided that they are not repetitive. The objections about resistances and regeneration rates have been already discussed and adequately refuted and replied to. As I have already proven, I am open to suggestions and I have made many things in the mod based on players' suggestions. Just see the readme.

Now, as for the boots of Improved Haste, the boots (with that name and description) doesn't exist in the game anymore. It now has a new name, a new description and a new background story. It also requires a new ingredient which is a new item only usable by rangers. (Justification completed). If you go to Cromwell with boots of speed, he will not even offer you the upgrade. You need to have that new main ingredient in your inventory and if he sees it he will offer you the choice to make new boots. Boots os speed are still required as ingredients though.

I think the easiest justification for restricting the flail to single class rangers rather than cleric/rangers is to consider what the weapon actually does: inflict bleeding damage. By 2nd ed AD&D rules, clerics (either single or multiclass) cannot use edged or bladed weapons. The only way bleeding damage could be caused is if the weapon was edged or bladed (of course, this means clerics shouldn't be able to use Gnasher either, but anyway...) As for restricting it to rangers only, that's less clear-cut, but I suppose Sikret has his reasons.

One thing about IA which could be addressed in future versions is getting rid of the old force-talk exploit. On a complete run-through, there were several instances in my game where this could still be used: the temple sewers party, all of the dragons except the ancient dragon and the dracolich, Orcus and the final villain for the Judgement Day Sword quest are the ones that come to mind.

Exactly!

The mithril tokens and the diamonds (as ingredients) actually add edges to the flail. What you noted was exactly the justification (which I mentioned that) I had in mind.


Can you explain more?

Do you mean that you can force them to talk during the battle? What's the result if you do?

What I mean is that it is possible (at least in my game) to click on them while they are still neutral (as if to initiate dialogue), and then immediately attack them. They don't turn hostile, so long as you keep attempting to initiate dialogue.

One problem might be that they are scripted to initiate dialogue immediately upon seeing any member of your party. It is possible, by using pause, to beat this scripting. Take Orcus, for example. If you immediately hit pause upon entering his location (not wanting to give away spoilers for anyone who hasn't had this encounter), you can initiate dialogue with him before his scripting kicks in.

For those of us who choose to convert 4.2 to 4.3 and are currently in ToB: Will there be any provision to credit us for having the boots of IH and an avenue available for forging the new boots? I assume the already forged flail of defending and wounding will work as is, but must be used by a single class ranger now?

So, there are others with such a question in mind at last .
I assume that (if the boots already exist in the game) they will simply be renamed and get the ranger only restriction, or whatever is changed.

Yes, those who have already forged the boots can keep them (they won't disappear from your inventory). Only their usability condition has changed. You may, however, find the new ingredient added to the game (depending on which places you have not visited yet) but even then you won't be able to forge a second pair of boots.

That's good news. Ha I never figured we would be getting 2 pairs of boots out of it. I'm just glad that the boots of IH won't disappear. I was hoping that would be the case and that I could upgrade those boots(again) after the new version and finding the new ingredient. However, if the ingredient is in SoA or WK or the firegiant stuff of ToB, I'll be out of luck in that regard.