I just installed IA at the end of SoA. It's been nice for the most part. Irenicus at the Tree seemed to be Unbreechable - that's not fair. I did kill him with Dragon's Breath, no characters died, and no reload, but still. Irenicus in hell was a nice improvement over the stock game without being totally overboard like Tactics Improved Irenicus. I then went through Saradush and Watcher's Keep (through level 4). I have no major complaints there either. The game has become more challenging. However, when I received Angurvadal and left the Watcher's Keep to face the demon lord (upper right area at Watcher's Keep's exterior), I was VERY disappointed.

This is the cheesiest encounter that I've ever had the misfortune to see. Please spoil me. How do you defeat this crew? Specifically, I am talking about the demon lord and his 2 buddies.

As near as I can tell, the demon lord is immune to high level traps as well as time stop. If you normally do 30 HP damage/strike, you may do 8 - provided that you can strip his protections. A level 30 inquisitor's dispel magic (that'd be level 60 spell power) wasn't keeping things under control - I'm not sure it was working at all! Does everyone always have immunity to abjuration and divination (vs True Seeing)? Both his buddies wield Soul Reavers. I started with a -20 THACO or so and ended up with a +50 THACO or so. Isn't that sweet... I've tried many things and none seemed to work. He seems to have an inexhaustible spell supply. So, I doubt hit and come back later cheese would help. Mord's swords are only distractions. Planetars and elementals are lunch. Of course, dragon's breath is useless. So, what's the solution?

I hope the author tones this encounter down a lot.... If he thinks the weapon you may get some day from this encounter is too powerful - then dump the weapon. As it is, this encounter is STUPIDLY difficult. (Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's mine!)

I have been playing DnD from the first version until the latest. I am also a very experienced BG2 player. I generally/usually avoid using spells and tactics that would not be allowed/couldn't succeed while a human judge was running a DnD 3.5 table. That alone makes the game MUCH, MUCH harder. But for the game's replay value, I like new mods. Unfortunately, some tactical mods go far overboard, such as this encounter and Tactics Improved Irenicus (to name 2). Some people like tactical puzzles, but I play for enjoyment when I'm really too tired to solve some tough puzzles. If I have to reload more than 3 times on Core difficulty to beat and encounter, I consider it too much. Tactics Pontifex is one I had to reload more than 3x to succeed with all my team intact; although, I did luck out and kill him in 2 rounds on Insane once. I say this only to indicate that I am an experienced player to hopefully convince the author that this encounter is a little too difficult for the general player population.

I'm sure there's something my tired brain overlooked. So, please tell me how to defeat these guys. If someone can't help me, then this encounter will receive the ultimate rebuff, CTRL-Y the baddies and leave the treasure on the ground except for the component.

Ah, if you think that was tough wait till you go back to watchers keep and face the real bad guy. I tend to agree with you on some of the difficulty of these "improvements".

As had been said before this mod pretty much makes the mage or sorcerer useless as everyone has a barage of spells that fire at the beginning of the encounter and everyone has high magic resistence. In fact if I remember right lower resistance would not work on the demon lord and his boss, not sure on that one though as it seemed that no spells worked on either of them.

In my current game if my best fighter gets waxed (and often does), then it is nearly an immediate reload as the monster tears through the rest of the weaker party. Note, during the first part of the game there is not enough items to equip a party with more than one, maybe two good effective fighters. Many of the encounters are a fight or nothing encounter, meaning due to sikrets great hatred of hit and retreat tactics (cheese as he calls it) you either fight with every party member (aka you must gather your party before proceeding), or avoid the encounter. I particularly think it is "bad form" to require your entire party to enter a small room and battle a monster that casts area spells and everyone dies, but thats just my opinion.

Now, to answer your original question. I think the great sikret missed one of these tactics at watchers keep. It would seem that you can take your character one at a time (or group) to the top of the keep and the bad guys won't follow. So this is what I did. I kept my strongest fighters (two) down near the rune statue and sent my weaker ones to the top of the keep. I drew the demon lord to near the entrance of the keep and tried to battle him and his buddies there, that way I could bring down some people to fire spells (mainly summoning like mords sword) and retreat. Due to the reduction in THAC0 that you mentioned I concentrated on the death lords first and if it got too bad I ran around the map until the extreme negatives wore off then hit them again. Sometimes if I got lucky the mords sword would keep either the demon lord or the death lords busy long enough for my fighter(s) to draw away and single out a bad guy and kill him.

I forgot one important thing, everyone (did not use AI at this time) fired everything they had at the elemental golem, after all if he starts gateing in the gem and coin golems its pretty much over. So, in progression of death I tried to kill the elemental golem, death lords, and demon lord in this order.

If the reload button was a physical button it would have been worn out for certain on this battle. So far I have found this game much more fustrating than it should be.

Hope this helps.

Romulas

@rbeverjr




Have you tried to make the Death Lords attack a character with PfMWs ?
If you don't have a F/M or a Bard even a pure Mage with the right protections could distract the Death Lords and absorb their hits.

A good way to prevent Protection Removals spells (R.Magic, Breach, Ruby Ray) from dispelling your buffs would be to use SI:Abjuration + Spell Shield + Spell Trap.
Also pause very often the game and read the battle text carefully.
If the Demons bring down your SI: Abjuration be ready to cast another one immediately.

I don't remember if in that fight the Demons use Death Spell.If not Mord. Swords can be very effective too.






Dispel Magic from an Inquisitor will work 100% if they don't have SI: Abjuration.
But note that some protective spells are not affected by Dispel/Remove Magic, like:

a)Spell Turning,Minor S.Turning
b)Globe of Invulnerability,Minor G.of Invulnerability
c)Spell Trap
d)Spell Immunity
e)Spell Deflection,Minor S.Deflection
f)Spell Shield

If enemies have SI: Divination then you could use Dispel Magic for the rest of their protections, or even better you could use the Wands of Spell Striking (from W.Keep) which can target the partially visible enemies.





I don't think this is true. Well if you keep running away from them then they will refresh their spells but not if you fight without avoiding them.





I don't agree with that.This encounter is far from impossible but this is just my opinion as you said .

And as Romulas said the second encounter for the Judgement Day sword is much more difficult.That is indeed extremely difficult but still doable with the right tactics.

Also since the player who wins these encounters gets as a reward an extremely powerful weapon and since you are not "forced" to do these fights in order to proceed the game, I don't think that they should be easier IMHO.



@Romulas





I must say that when I first tested IA I didn't agree with Sikret on this.
I thought (and I still think) that hit&run tactics are not cheesy and sould be allowed.

But Sikret has convinced me that the hit&run tactics can be exploited by the player at a point that can make even the most difficult battle much more easier.

Just think about it guys: a tough enemy has lets say 5 PfMWs spells and 5 Ruby Ray, Breach spells. With hit&run tactics the player just with one character can make him to waste all of his spells, avoiding to fight and after the enemy has finished his spells the player could attack with all his party members and kill him quickly.

Unfortunately it is another limitation of the game's AI.
No enemy with a decent INT would keep casting PfMWs if he saw that the player keeps running away from him.

Sikret has found that solution in order to prevent exploiting this situation.If someone has a better solution to propose, I am sure that Sikret would be very glad to hear it





But still you don't have to fight with every party member.
You can always keep back your weaker party members, or even out of the enemy's visual range, without having to avoid the encounter.





I don't think that Sikret missed this.
But since you can't avoid fighting for more than some seconds (since enemies will refresh their spells) it cannot be exploited in an cheesy way (another situation which gives right to Sikret for making enemies to refresh their spells/buffs).

You can still make your badly injured party members retreat for healing but it doesn't make the battle much easier IMO, since without the right tactics you will not defeat them anyway.

@thetruth: Please submit more tactics - yes spoil me. Your opinion that the difficulty is fine when I'm frustrated is not at all helpful. From the comments that I read on other threads, you are a tactics maestro, defeating Ascension with a simple fighter. So, your opinion is likely not the same as the mass's.

These foes can be distracted with Mord's sword. I just didn't succeed in killing them quick enough. Not so surprising since the demon lord I was attacking had 75-100% resistance in everything, and Lower Resistance did not seem to work. I probably should have killed his underlings first - if I could. I think the Demon Lord puts up spell immunity abjuration, but I did not notice if the death lords do too. I breached the demon lord plenty of times, but did not succeed in bringing them down.

I might could succeed in killing them if I just keep trying, but that is not how I enjoy the game. I think this match will get thumbs down from me. CTRL-Y and take the component. If I get more of these matches, this mod will be uninstalled, and I will leave it to the tactics maestros.

One tactic that should work very nice(and you can use it since you have an inquisitor), is to put improved Carsomyr in the hands of Keldorn or your PC(if he is a paladin) and cast improved haste on him. Than just hit the demon lords as many times as possible. Their protections are bound to go down very soon. GWW works well for this purpose too, maybe even better.

@rbeverjr


As I wrote in my previous post you could use a chracter who has PfMWs to distract the Death Lords and take their hits.

I repeat use SI: Abjuration + Spell Shield + Spell Trap and keep casting SI: Abjuration if the Demons bring it down.

In the meantime keep attacking with your other party members.Concentrate your attacks on the first Death Lord and then the second.
GWWs are very useful here since with the many R.Magic spells of the demons I.Haste gets dispelled.

I wouldn't bother casting spells on them, but you can use your spell casters for other purposes.

- Mages can summon Mord.Swords, or use the Rod of Resurrection to insta-heal badly injured party members. Remember that a clone (Simulacrum,PI) can use the Rod too (very useful in extreme battles) .

- Bards have a bad THACO for these battles but you could use them with the buffs I suggested above or you can always have them sing.Improved Bard song is quite useful.

- Clerics have a great 7 level spell:

Greater Restoration will full heal ALL your party members even those out of the visual range of the cleric.

When you kill the Death Lords concentrate on the Demon Lord.

His main power (even more than his resistances) is his high AC.Also he is immune to +3 or less weapons IIRC.
Buffs from potions are not so useful in this battle because they get dispelled from the R.Magic.
So if you have Critical Strike it can make the battle easier.

Are you still having trouble killing the Demon Lord ?
Then in the Oasis you get one of the most powerful weapons of the game.
Read the description of the Answerer and you will see that the AC of the Demon will be no more a problem for you




Heh thanks but I assure you that I am nothing like that.
I have just played the game too many times with mods like IA,Tactics etc.

As for soloing Ascension with a plain Fighter, it's easier that it sounds if you are masochist enough (don't mind reloading constantly ) and can exploit the game's AI.
Something that would be impossible with IA though

Thanks for the replies. I was appalled that Carsomyr never seems to do anything. When I had Item Upgrades, I could see spell effects disappear. It didn't seem to happen this time. I was actually considering sending in my mage with Staff of the Magi under Tenser's and Protection from Magic Weapons.

I have always been reluctant to bring in my pure mages into combat. In the unmodded game they can rain havoc from afar, but I can try to let them be distractions. I like better the idea of just sending in the Mord's.

I think the key here will be switching my focus to eliminating the Death Lords. I did not realize how much of an impact they were having on my THACO. If it weren't for them, my main character would miss the demon lord only on a 1. Another key is to make sure the game pauses often and carefully read what is happening. What spells do they have up? Are my weapons doing anything? If not, then why? I did this a little, but not very carefully. I usually don't like taking this much time. My vision always seemed to be blurred (half-asleep) when I run into these kinds of battles.

I know about The Answerer. Both it and the Soul Reaver could probably benefit me in this battle. Unfortunately, Saerileth took Soul Reaver out of the bag of holding and broke it. I never went to the Oasis, I left Saradush and went straight to the keep.

I went as far as I wanted in the current game; although, I may give this battle another go.

I think you are right about +3 weapons (thetruth). I don't think I ever hit, until I switched to a +4 weapon. But the +4 weapon is nothing compared to Blackrazor of Celestial Fury. (Although CF wouldn't be much help here. Hey, I did level drain something.)

I really wanted to play a kensai, because their offense is best until greater whirlwinds come. However, due to the huge amount of DR/damage of IA monsters, I'm thinking that I better stick with the morituri. Although I have ran away from such cheese in the past, it looks like I need to pull out a big wheel of it now. I'm thinking morituri, FMC, FMT, and sorcerer (no XP cap). In ToB, having a morituri, FMC, sorcerer, swashbuckler, and illusionist-fighter. What do you think?

I wouldn't suggest sending a pure Mage with T.Transf.

TT disable spell casting and after your buffs get dispelled (and they WILL after some rounds) he is dead.

You need your mage to able to renew his buffs and his role will be as a meat shield nothing else.

Also another tactic you could use is to wait until your character (with the buffs I suggested) absorbs the initial R.Magic, slow spells (free action) of the Demons and then send in the your other party members with I.Haste + other buffs (potions of STR,Heroism). And if the Demons cast again R.M. have your spell casters (from distance) to recast I.Haste.




This is the most important thing when playing with tactical mods like IA.

Pausing at every round (I prefer manually) and not wasting any time during the battle is the key in these fights.




I know the Morituri kit and though I consider it quite overpowered using it with IA or the XP CAP and other items/weapons out of the original game is not so cheesy anymore





I think it's an excellent party.
I would change the F/M/C with a R/C though.Better THACO and faster level-ups.

Also you could consider a F/T as well.Though the Swashbuckler can be an even better tank at high levels.His AC bonuses are insane.

Well, thanks for your help. This time I switched my focus to his helpers and won the first try. I was able to kill them on Core without any deaths. I went through a lot of Resurrection and Spellstrike charges. I don't think that Carsomyr helped but the wand of spell striking did. I still think this was a very difficult battle. Particularly, if you don't have the right team. I'll leave soloing this to people that can solo Ascension with a fighter - on Insane, like thetruth

In case anyone else has as many problems as I did, swarm them with Mord's swords. Be sure that each one is attacking a sword. Starting with a single Death Lord, breach it, and have your fighters whirlwind on it. Your fighters better have great AC or Hardiness (both are better). If your fighters take damage, move them away and heal them. Try to maintain the foes' attentions on the Mord swords.

This battle convinced me I should play more with a wild mage before jumping into the deep water. I was missing my sorcerer. It also suggested to me that I better pull out my super cheese fighter-mages to have an enjoyable time with IA.

I was actually thinking about R/C rather than FMC. At higher levels, I was thinking that the arcane spells would be more beneficial than the advantages of RC in IA. I haven't seen magic help much for the tough battles, except for stripping defenses. Remember, I have no XP cap. I also have a small override that allows me the choice of the best F, M, and Cleric HLAs. If you still recommend RC, I'll go with that.

I also considered F/T. I was actually playing a kensai 13-thief as part of the team in this battle. However, as you pointed out, I was thinking the Swashbuckler's AC may be beneficial. I should be able to hit around AC-20 or a little more with spell buffs.

Good job rbeverjr
Though after forging the Judgement Day sword a much more difficult battle awaits.





Nah he wouldn't have any chance against the tough enemies of IA




Oh then the F/M/C will become eventually more powerful than the R/C.

But still I think that the R/C will be more useful for the bigger part of the game. He levels up faster and he will be a better Cleric too.And Ironskins will help a lot.

Anyway just remember to give high WIS to your character.Clerics get extra spells from high WIS.





This is true for pure Arcane spell casters in IA.
Though I found I.Haste really invaluable since my characters (who dualwield) could use Critical Strike and not GWW when possible.

But they are not so deadly as they are in the original game or with other mods.On the other hand a F/M really shines in IA.




Yes the Swashbuckler don't have the backstab (not essential in IA anyway) but in high levels they could have even a permanent -24 AC with a Plate Armor + Shield.In attack their fighter's THACO and WW attacks can help a lot too.
And Timetraps can be the solution in many difficult battles especially in the SoA part of the game.

To thetruth, actually you do. Two words, grave liche. It has to be how I would envision entering a meat grinder. You can protect some characters but others are going to die and die permanently.

Romulas (by the way thanks for some of the tips, I might even try some if I can force myself back to the computer after getting shlacked so many times)

Hi, rbeverjr!

Welcome to BWL!



You need to upgrade it.


It's been reported that Saerileth NPC (if installed with IA) will cause problems during the battle with Improved Draconis. It may also cause problems in other portions of the game. Perhaps you can confirm the conflict and report it to me by meeting Draconis once with and without Saerileth installed. If the conflict is confirmed, the general hint is to uninstall Saerileth as soon as you proceed to TOB. The 100% safe solution is not to install it with IA at all.

Cheers

@Sikret
I won't be able to confirm the Saerileth problem. The primary reason that I quit this game when I did is that it had become corrupted. I had a lot of mods installed and a conflict was introduced somewhere. I think the Xan mod wasn't cooperating with the rest - I got errors on the install, and some corrupted dialogue. I also had other indications of a messed up game. During the transition from SoA to ToB, 2 party members came with me and 2 stayed behind (momentarily). Saerileth mistakenly thought I was not Lawful Good (I was - I checked to confirm) and left. I just wanted to check out this mod some before starting up a new, hopefully uncorrupted game. I have decided to take Fade instead of Saerileth, more so now that you report that Saerileth could cause problems.

I started up a new game with IA, and I'm thinking presently that I want some levels and equipment before IA's added challenge. I like a more relaxed game than IA is providing. I want mooks (unnamed hirelings/minion troops, sidequests without important loot) to be relatively unchallenging. If I am attentive enough to play these encounters overmatched, then I should be working one of my 2 jobs. I've also installed several Tactics mods, including toughest random dungeon encounters. I'm thinking about installing AI after I reach level 15 or so, which should happen in the Underdark or slightly before, but I don't know. I'm also thinking about installing right before going to De'Arnis keep. We'll see. I can handle IA a lot better on Saturday mornings when I am actually awake...

This may be possible with IA v3, but not with IA v4. You will need to start a new game as soon as you install IA v4. It can't be installed in the middle of an ongoing game.

Doubly deleted !

You sent the same post twice. I deleted one of them an you deleted the other one! Please edit your previous post again and add its content to it.

In that case, I hope that you have an allowed an avenue to XP, GP, and equipment at the beginning of the game for people that play half-asleep like me. I personally prefer the "install it if you want it" component method of Tactics. That way you don't get the rewards (XP, GP, equipment) of an improved encounter unless you play it. If you have items (in the item upgrade part of your work) that you feel are unbalancing and are not already controlled by their GP/component cost, then you can simply specify in the readme that you must install a certain battle to receive a rare component for this item upgrade.

I don't like it when the entire game is a grinding hack-n-slash. I want some very clear boss battles, rather than the entire game being made much more difficult. Don't take this comment as being overly critical as I've not played through IA v3 yet. However, my initial impression is that I will install the IA after I've gained some equipment and levels. I'm just hoping that IA4 is not too frustrating.

Personally, I think that any fighter with Stoneskin and Protection from Magic Weapons and other spells is more "overpowered." Even with all the bonuses, the morituri is only a fighter. In particular, his immunity to Improved Haste HURTS. His inability to use potions (other than healing potions) and magical equipment (other than weapons and boots) also hurt. If the author makes him a good alignment only (fallen paladin) sort, it would be another huge penalty, because of Bhaal power selection. (I am more inclined towards the Living Arcanis viewpoint on the dieties myself.) He's also limited to being proficient with swords - no FoA for him. At high level, I think the morituri is probably the best fighter, but once again - he's only a fighter. A high level sorcerer or fighter-mage should munch him.

Who said that I don't consider F/Ms overpowered as well ?


But even a high level F/M with every protection possible can be defeated since his/her protections can be dispelled.

Now a Morituri at the XP CAP can have a "permanent" 100% resistance to physical damage ( 40% innate + 20% Defender of E. + 40% Hardiness).

Hardiness has a long duration at high levels (5-6 of them can get you through a high duration battle) and note that it is undispellable.
Now add on top of that a MR of near 100%, a -8 to saving throws, elemental resistances and other immunitites/abilities.

Honestly I can't find a more powerful kit out there.Maybe only the Druidic Sorcerer can be compared to power and even he will be much less effective with a mod like IA.

But it can be breached. While it doesn't happen often, it does happen, and when it does, it can be painful Still, I agree, morituri is way overpowered, since it efectialy merges three already powerful classes together(monk, kensai, barbarian, iirc).

And if physical damage is a problem, Valygar can withstand that one very well too. New item that you get in ranger new quest + flail of defending and wounding + Judgement day + hardiness + shield of fate = 100+% physical damage. With the right potions, and his improved family armor, he is night unstopable. Luckily his family katana has been nerfed, he was way too powerful with that baby in his hands

True. Breach is the only spell that can remove it.

Problem is, are enemy spellcasters scripted to cast Breach on a pure classed warrior ?

(NO Sikret, don't do it )

Fortunately, Valygar doesn't have 3 hands to wield his improved family katana + Flail of Defending an Wounding + JD sword! (Not to mention that forging all these items plus his improved family armor will cost no less than 525000 gp and plenty of other components! )

BTW, what is Shield of Fate? It's not an IA item. (He will need an extra hand for the shield too.)

No fighter, barbarian, monk, morituri, or other fighter-type kit should survive timestop (comparing them to fighter-mage types). In an unmodded game, I would play the kensai. He will have a better offense for most of the game, and the unmodded game will not be too much a threat to his survival. In IA, I think it will be much more enjoyable to have that Damage resistance. Not that you can't get 100% DR other ways between items and Bhaal powers. I do admit the defenses of a high level morituri (with Spirit Armor) support is the best of the fighter-types and is why I am taking it for IA. If I find the game tougher than I want, I'll have to switch to PC = illusionist-fighter!

Why not rbeverjr ?

Even without the Morituri's MR a fighter can avoid many spells (since they take effect when time returns normal).

ADHWs and Dragon's Breaths can be dodged with high speed (and the use of the pause button) (Morituri cannot be hasted but their innate bonuses to movement rate are more than enough), spells which do elemental dmg can be avoided with the right items , immunities from weapons and items can protect from other spells too and since warrior types have the best saving throws and HPs of all classes they can survive more than one Timestop (maybe except some of the "special" Timestops of IA ).

It's easy to script them to cast Breach on Warriors who are under the effect of Hardiness, but I believe that the limited number of breach spells those enemies have are better be reserved for better uses. What do you think, thetruth?

Of course but not only for this reason.

Think about those poor warriors (OK not the Morituri) who don't have other protections since they get dispelled by RM.Hardiness is the only thing that remains.

And enemy spell casters already lose enough time casting protection removal spells, if they have to cast Breach at every single party member the risk is that they will become less effective offensively.

There are a number of ways: imprisonment; stat-drain from mindflayer; chaos blade, etc.; harm and bang from FMC (XP cap removed); Improved alacrity and a ton of no save damage spells (MM, etc.); etc. I'm mentioning this cheese to establish the extent of cheesiness in the BG2 arcane system.

Then again, outrunning wilting and dragon's breathe sounds pretty cheesy too. I've never tried that one.

Ah OK you are talking about hypothetical situations.
I was talking about spells during Timestops in the game (with or without some of the tactical mods).

Then yes spell-casters have many ways to kill a fighter during a Timestop (like in IA as I mentioned in my previous post).

Though Imprisonment can be blocked by the Spell Turning (Book of Infinite Spells) and the Pf Magic Scrolls (obviously).

Harm does not ignore MR.

"chaos blade" ? - You mean Black Blade of Disaster probably.

As about INT drain from Mind Flayers I am not sure if there is an in-game protection for the player except from the PfMWs.
Fortunately I haven't seen it yet in a mod (and I DON'T want to see it ).

Of course, the mage fires off his triggers/chain contingencies before or during time stop. The fighter will have no protections and MR if multiple breach and lower resistance can take care of that. And I'm talking about the bard NPC's dex-drain blade.

Speaking of Lower Resistance (back on topic) is that Demon Lord immune to Lower Resistance?

Ah OK. The Chaos Blade has been nerfed in v.4 of IA BTW.

And I think that the Demon Lord is immune to Lower Resistance, though I am not 100% sure.

He is immune to 5th (and lower) level spells (including lower resistance), but you can lower his MR using higher level spells which can do the job (Pierce Shield and Pierce Magic). I think you should avoid forging JD sword (it's optional after all), because if you have so many problems with this particular demon, you will be much more frustrated against his boss at the second stage of JD plot. If I remember correctly, others have also said this point before in this thread. These difficult battles are optional for those who want to see extra challenging encounters during the game.

As I said before, I killed him the first try after killing those undroppable Soul Reaver Cheese first. If I want to take the time, I generally overcome encounters. It helps a lot if I try in the morning rather than the wee hours of the night. On the other hand, this battle was tougher than I desire. Use the wrong tactics (and how could you know they were using Soul Reavers, resistant to everything, and Lower Resistance doesn't work), and you will die. So, I fully expect that I will be disgusted with your "boss." I'll probably take it on some day just to see if I can. If I can kill Pontifex in 2 rounds on Insane, I should have a chance anyway.

But I am curious why you make such difficult fights. Don't you think your mod might have a broader appeal if it wasn't so difficult? I know you say it is optional, but that's just like Drizzt and Demogorgon are optional. I don't know about anyone else, but I had to kill them once just to see if I could.

Personally, new content and a moderate increase in difficulty appeal far more to me than grinding hack-n-slash. Hopefully, I'll get around to posting a review of this mod on Game Banshee and Bioware after I finish it through ToB.

Well, If they were resistant to "everything" you couldn't kill them at all.

As for writing the review, we have already started to prepare a story-like walkthrough for the mod. Silverstar has written a section of it which you can read here; others also sent me their works, but I asked everyone to wait for IA v4 before writing any new story. V4 has much more and better content than V3 and many things in the mod have been revised and enhanced. If you want to take part, just wait for v4 and then send your review to me, I will publish everyone's work with their own names. When the walkthrough is complete, it will be available for download separately.

@Sikret: resistant was not meant to imply 100% resistance, particularly when I listed it above. The kind of review I'm talking about is to brief the general BG2 player population concerning what they can expect from your mod: what is the difficulty level, comments on items, added content, etc. without giving away too much. It's not a walkthrough. It's just to let them know if they may want to use this mod or not. I know v4 is due out soon, and I will reserve judgment on it. However, if every little fight will become a challenging ordeal, then I won't be interested. I had no problem with any of your fights from Irenicus at the tree, through Saradush and Watcher's Keep, up until the fight with the Demon+Death Lords (where I finally had an objection). I noticed in v3, the initial quests were made more difficult. They were made too difficult in my opinion. I have no doubt that I could beat every one, but I like a more relaxed game than that. After I get some equipment and more XP, I'm sure I can handle the greater challenge as long as it doesn't get too far overboard. I can probably handle that case too, cursing each time I reload.

Happened to me couple of times Mainly on Valygar and Keldorn.



Forged them all, and yes, it almost send me rocketing to the poorhouse But they were of great help, and you can keep JD and family katana in main hand, and then just switch them, and the flail in off-hand. Should be no problem.

As for shield of fate, I mean armor of faith, first level cleric/druid spell that raises your damage resistance for max 25%. My mistake.

[quote name='thetruth' date='Feb 26 2007, 04:47 PM' post='20905']
[quote]But even a high level F/M with every protection possible can be defeated since his/her protections can be dispelled.[/quote]

That's why smart mages have spell immunity abjuration and perhaps also SI divination ready - could be a buff or part of a contingency/chain/trigger. It seems that Alesa-BH is a caster that is not easily defeated.

True. But in IA v4, "Spell Immunity" spell has been tweaked so that multiple immunities will not stack. You can't have both SI:Abjuration and SI:Divination simultaneously. It's true for enemies as well.

SI:Abjuration is also fixed to grant immunity to all magic-attacks (except Rubay Ray of Reversal which is not an abjuration spell), but dispite this improvement it can be ruby rayed and removed. Since it won't stack with SI:Divination, nothing can prevent a smart enemy to Ruby Ray your SI:abjuration. Spell Shield may protect against the first Ruby Ray spell, but multiple and successive Reversal spells will eventually remove SI:abjuration.

If you use SI:Divination instead, Dispel/remove magic can dispel it.

Just a note on the battle with the demon lord and prince. The difficulty of the demon lord I agree is warrented, after all you get the last component for judgement day. However, the battle with the demon prince I don't remember getting anything for it. Defineatly the toughest battle of the game and beats Melisan hands down yet in ia30 the reward seemed to be a wash.

Has this been changed in ia40? I hope so otherwise why do it, too much frustrations just for bragging rights I would think. Just my opinion.

Romulas

Of course, but I could put it back up or enjoy a free round of offense while you work on that... In high level battles on table top, the first action (let alone the first round of actions) can make the difference in the battle. Unfortunately, nothing in unmodded BG2 or modded BG2 has reminded me of the high level battles in DnD 3.5 table top.

I don't like the Demon/Death Lord battle. Now that I know the secret, I am sure that I can beat it every time without reloading and probably without deaths. BUUTTT... Until I figured out that the Death Lord's have undroppable Soul Reavers and must be targeted first, realized the extremely high resistance of the targets to all forms of damage, suspected that Lower Resistance and Carsomyr were not doing their job, that HLA summons were inferior to Mord's sword ... etc. - I had no way of winning. Once I looked at the monsters and considered the results from the first battles (reloads) - particularly reinforced with comments from people on this forum - the battle was mine. Still, the battle costs a lot of resources and even real time to beat them down. (Yeh, my high level cleric made his knowledge: the planes roll sufficiently high to identify their resistances - in DnD 3.5 terms, just joking )

I expect to have to reload sometimes simply because I play when I'm too tired to think. But this was nothing more than a puzzle.

I also think that the Soul Reavers were a bit much. Regardless, this fight will not trouble me in the future. I'll learn the secret of the next battle too - maybe with hints from the accomplished players of this forum. We'll see. Hopefully, it will be a Saturday morning (when my brain is actually functioning) when I face "the boss."

@Romulas
The reward of the battle against the demon prince is the XP you gain (from killing him and his summons), plus keeping the sword for the rest of the game, plus the challenge.

Yes but tough enemy spell-casters have at least the means to dispel such protections.

Dragons,Liches and other tough enemies (from mods) for example have Ruby Ray and SI: Divination is useless against them.

Easily? - Of course not.Never said that. But (at least potentially) they have the spells to deal with the protections of a F/M. Something that is not true for a high level Morituri (except if someone scripts them to cast Breach on him).

And SI doesn't enter in a Contigency/Trigger btw.

That said I don't ignore the fact that an Arcane spell caster (Wild Mages/Sorcerers mostly) can become invincible with some tactics/spells (cheesy or not).
And I repeat that I do consider the F/M overpowered.

Fortunately Sikret in the 4th version of IA has changed a lot of things regarding Arcane magic cheese.




It's not so simple as it seems rbeverjr.
Just be sure to read carefully the Readmes before playing with IA4





You know this is why I like so much mods like IA.

I don't find frustrating at all the fact that you have to spend much time (reloads) if you want to win a difficult battle (OK probably the problem is mine - call me crazy ).
But I like these mods for this kind of challenge they offer.

You're crazy. (just joking). I'm sure there are other people like you. But if you will take a clue from the games marketed by Bioware, you can see that you are in the minority. For instance, NWN2 was toooo easy. Most people are NOT looking for this much challenge. I want more of a challenge than the stock game, but less of a challenge than the Demon/Death lord battle. This challenge came about mostly because they had abilities that were too deadly (Soul Reaver attacks), and an overall defense that was more impressive than any morituri! Obviously, the battle can be won. But under DnD 2 rules, the most likely way you will win is metagaming (using player knowledge rather than character knowledge). - Darn that didn't work. Reload. Reload again. Reload again. Oh Hades, let's take a look at what's special about the opposition. Oh, that's why my tactics are failing. Fine. Reload. Womp! 'Bout dang time....

I would bet on a fighter-mage or pure arcane winning the battle against a morituri as I have previously detailed. If the scripters are targeting fighter-mages but not morituri with defense strippers, then the fighter-mages are still serving a purpose on the team by occupying the foes “attacks.” Hopefully, they are not free actions by the foes!

I like DnD 3.5 where there seems to be a better balance in the classes. Fighters are generally more valuable at lower levels than other classes, while mages are probably the most dominant class at high levels. Still, each class can be valuable at any level. The mage has been the most dominant high level class in every edition of DnD. (Some people may argue the cleric’s case, who is very powerful. But I’ve seen mages dominate the battle field alone.) I think this trend should be respected by modifiers. Limit arcane cheese without limiting their position as a dominant force. Please Sikret, don’t reduce mages to a summoner and defense stripper. (This comment is based mostly on the repeated remarks that I have read saying that mages have become much less effective –ineffective?- in the modified game, rather than personal experience; so take it with a grain of salt 

1- Playing a mage/sorcerer is still one of the two most recommended options for IA v4. Playing either with a ranger or with a mage, you will see more new things during the game. Mages are still very powerful; I have just modified and nerfed some cheesy arcane tactics. A solo characater cannot win IA v4, no matter what his/her class is. Mages and sorcerers now do not rule, they need to cooperate wit other classes as much as other classes need to cooperate with them.

2- Tactical puzzles are undroppable parts of Improved Anvil for players who are looking for more challenge in the game. They are for players who want them, have asked me to add and to keep them and want to spare time to think and find the right tactics to win them (and eventually feel the satisfaction of finding the right tactics). Other players who don't want such tactical puzzles can always bypass those difficult and optional battles during the game.

@Romulas
To add to my previous reply to you, I am currently thinking of making the second stage of JD plot a prerequisite for the new "Epic Divine Encounter" feature of the mod. I should think more about it, but if I implement it, then the battle with Demon Prince at 2nd stage of Jd plot will have an additional purpose: Only players who win that battle can see the epic divine encounter. I will let you know the final decision I will make about this issue.

@Sikret

With the purpose behind the battle I can understand better, with the current judgement day end battle so to speak it just didn't seem plausible from a role playing point of view.

I think the biggest part of trying to adapt to the new ia and its methods is changing the way I play my mages or sorcerers. In previous versions I played them as battle mages, and especially at the higher levels many times they would engage the enemy quickly. Now that they are relegated to a supporting role much of the tactics have been removed. Let me elaborate some.

Now, if a high level fighter with a good armor class and saving throws can withstand the first 5 to 10 rounds of battle with the super casters (those that fire 10 spells when the encounter starts) then the battle is his for the most part. In my opinion the game has now become a hack and slash type of game, and for some that is enough. I am not knocking anyone for liking this type of game.

I played the battle with the demon lord twice, with two different parties. The first party with a sorcerer and that party eventually won, the sorcerer was mainly a summoner because when he got within sight to cast protection removeal spells he got tee'd off on. The second party was strong on fighting and weak on magic, in fact the magic-users and thief stayed in the tower while my two high level fighters eventually won the battle, merely hack and slash. I believe that the second party had the easier time, the key here was surviving till the spells worn off the death lords.

In the first part of the game it is helpful to have lots of missile firing party members, but at the higher levels this is almost a waste as the greatest missile weapon (ones readily available) is only +3, and many of the monsters are either immune to missile weapons or have a high resistence.

I think one of the cheesies things I have seen so far is a monster that can only be hit be a certain plus weapon, hence he is immune to normal weapons then putting protection from magic weapons on him makes him invincible for 4 rounds (successive contingencies extend this).

There used to be a rule stating that a character could not have protection from normal weapons AND magical weapons on at the same time, hence not allowing the character to be invulnerable for a time. The spirit of this requirement was to keep things balanced. Now, fighting Lavok I can assure you balance was not the case, with his protection from magic weapons and natureal resistence to non-magical weapons. I emptied my quivers on that boy and he grunted.

It just seems that much has been removed from the game in the spirit of trying to make it better. For instance, the battle with the demon lord and even more so the demon prince was 10 times harder then the battle with demogorgon. And this is the demon prince that Helm personally had to imprison. In many ways it seems to lessen the story line of the original game.

This is of course all my own opinion, but this is why we discuss these things.

I think I will restart yet again and this time have a fighter, thief, and fighter/mage for my pc. See how it goes with just 3.

Romulas

I hope you are a better player than I am Romulas. I actually agree with thetruth that FM (as well as the FMT and M in general) can be overpowered. I also agree that the morituri is one of the most powerful fighting classes, even though I would probably prefer the kensai in the normal game at levels less than 28 or so. And everyone knows that the ranger-cleric can also be overpowered. Etc. I'll play with 4 in SoA and 5 in ToB. Hopefully, I will find even the tough matches easier with these characters. And if I find things too easy, I can crank up the difficulty and/or place strictures on what I do with the mages.

I also agree with you concerning your demogorgon complaint. I put it another way before. Simply, I want tougher boss fights. If everything is tougher including every little sidequest it really makes the boss fights less memorable.

@Romulas

1- Lavok is not immune to normal weapons.

2- The fact that Demogorgon is MUCH weaker than the other demon lords in the game can be solved by improving him. I am currently working on the "Improved Demogorgon" feature of the mod. However, it doesn't mean that demogorgon should be necessarily the most powerful foe in the game. He won't be! He may still be weaker than the Demon Prince in JD plot but not "much" weaker as he currently is. And, both Demogorgon (even after being improved) and the Demon prince in JD plot will still be certainly weaker than the main personage you will meet in the new "Epic Divine Encounter" feature of the mod. The fact that Helm had imprisoned demogorogn doesn't entail that demogorgon is the toughest evil. There may be for many other reasons that Helm did conflict with Demogorgon but not with others who may be even more powerful than demogorgon.

3- The hack and slash complaint doesn't also seem entirely true to me. One of the IA v4 testers started his game with a mageless party (he only had Jan in the party) and faced too many problems during the game. Having a powerful mage is still a must. However, what I did in IA v4 ensures that mages cannot win the game without cooperation with other classes and I believe that this is a very good and positive change.

In DnD, there is no demon more powerful than Demogorgon, Lord of All Demons.

@Romulas

Also, note that JD sword has a background and story, which you can read in its description. Hence, the confrontation with the Demon prince in the 2nd stage of JD plot is indispensable. Moreover, he must be more powerful than his own messanger.

@rbeverjr

Even in pnp AD&D, DMs can add any kind of new personage to the game if they want to. What you read in Monster Manual and other books are just general hints and guidelines. If a player doesn't like the way a DM governs the game, he/she can leave the table, of course.

You are so right. They can leave. Often DMs create their own world and sometimes they create their own diety system. I just think it is wrong to include Demogorgon and him not be lord of the demons. However, this alone will not keep me from playing Improved Anvil.

And lets not forget that you can't actually kill Demogorgon in BG2.
When you defeat him you just "send" him back to Hell.

It would be too unrealistic if a mortal could kill the Prince of the Demons.