Improved Anvil adds a number of new and powerful types of golems to the game. So, perhaps the idea of a new "Golem Slayer" kit will be attractive for those players who are familiar with these tough golems.

So far I have thought of the following two advantages for the kit:

1- 40% resistance to crushing damage.

2- An innate ability to create a temporary golem slayer weapon which inflicts quadruple damage to golems. The weapon will be usable by its creator and will be an undroppable weapon in the duration of its existence.

I need your suggestions for this kit idea:

Question 1: Do you think that it should be a fighter kit or a ranger kit?

Question 2: Do you have any better or additional suggestions for the kit's advantages?

Question 3: What are your suggestions for the kit's disadvantages?

Question 4: Do you prefer to have the 40% resistance to crushing damage right from level 1, or do you think it is better to divide it between different levels of experience. (and how?)

What makes designing the kit difficult is how to make sure that it is neither overpowered nor underpowered. We don't want the kit to be too weak against non-golem creatures and we don't want it to be too powerful against golems without adequate compensation.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

I will not add the kit to the mod unless I find a very good and balanced list of advantages and disadvantages for it. Not having a new kit at all is much better than having a badly designed one.

I think that this sounds more like a Cleric kit, and the power of the god is what produces the benefits (since the life of a golem is not given by a god, but the arrogance of man). Golems are not part of the natural order, etc....

Plus with spells like Bless, Chant, Defensive Harmony, and Pro: Evil, he helps buff the whole party for Golem onslaughts.

Thoughts for advantages:

1.) Start with 25% crush resist at 8th level, add 10% every 3 levels.
2.) Immune to Slow effects.
3.) Tool of Nature - spell that creates an energy mace specialized against golems (both crushing and slashing damage).
4.) Can become specialized in blunt weapons (Mace, Hammer, etc).
5.) Has innate Haste ability, similar to Mazzy.
6.) Has innate Slow ability.



Thoughts for disadvantages:
1.) Cleric class prevents using strength potions.
2.) Cleric class prevents Grand Mastery.
3.) Clerics can't use bladed or missle weapons - limits his options.
4.) DEX penalty, as part of crushing resistance.
5.) +5 AC penalty against missle weapons.
6.) Can't use shields.

Well, at least, Clay golems (among the standard types of golems) can have clerical origins. Clerics don't look to be really anti-golem after all. Perhaps your reference to "nature" indicates that you prefer the kit to be a druid or a ranger kit.

I will consider your suggested advantages and disadvantages for the kit, for sure. Some of them are inspiring and usable even for a non-cleric kit. Thank you.

I was thinking Druid, but a golem slayer that can't use a shield really needs to be able to use metal armor...

Of course, if you beef up his crushing resistance (say, to 75%), maybe having leather armor against everything else would be a fair trade-off. Especially given the fact that so few enemies besides golems do crushing damage.


Happy to offer the thoughts - happier still to have them considered...

Question 1: Do you think that it should be a fighter kit or a ranger kit?

A fighter kit would be my first answer perhaps a pally (sort of anti magic), and a ranger kit would quickly (?) run into troubles with the Divine Remix as would the cleric choice. Just my thoughts.

Question 4: Do you prefer to have the 40% resistance to crushing damage right from level 1, or do you think it is better to divide it between different levels of experience. (and how?)

I think a gradual approach would be nice. Perhaps a poison reststance also.

Ranger kit sounds nice. We have too many fighter kits from all other mods already. Plus, fighting the unnaural abominations such as Golems are more suitable to rangers IMHO.

They should auto-get Golem as their hated enemy though. Can you code this?

Gradual approach to crushing dmg resistance based on lvl is better. Make the kit immune to slow but also haste effects, to balance things. A golem slayer weapon is a cool idea, too!

He should lose ranger casting abilities as a trade-off (spells are mighty useless against golems anyway), and maybe incur a DEX penalty or delete two-weapon style proficiencies? Removing spell casting ability can also prevent conflicts with Divine Remix, hopefully!

How about a class that gains the ability to take on some of the characteristics of a golem?

Advantages:

Character may take on some of the abilities of a golem for 2 turns once per day per 6 levels:

levels 1-5 Flesh golem - 10% resistance to crushing damage, fists become +1 weapons doing 1-8 damage
lvls 6-10 Clay golem - 15% resistance to crushing damage, fists become +2 weapons doing 1-10 damage, immunity to slow
lvls 11-15 Stone Golem - 25% resistance to crushing damage, fists become +3 weapons doing 1-12 damage, immunity to slow
lvls 16-20 Iron Golem - 35% resistance to crushing damage, fists become +4 weapons doing 2-16 damage, immunity to slow and poison
lvls 21+ Admantite golem - 50% resistance to crushing damage, fists become +5 weapons doing 1-20 damage, immunity to slow and poison

The character always does double damage against golems, but when in (pseudo-)golem form, he does triple damage.


Disadvantages:

-1 dexterity
moves at 2/3 speed when in golem form (retains same number of attacks)

This would create a character who was effective against golems (without being over the top), but who had very little advantages against other types of enemy - hence the relatively minor disadvantages.

The idea of taking on the characteristics of a particular golem could be developed further, or it could be left as is, where the title of what you change into is largely symbolic.

Edit: I think this would fit best as a fighter. 'The Golem Hunter has spent his life studying golems - this has given him a unique understanding of golem mechanics - he now knows where to strike that telling blow and how best to penetrate the impressive defences of any golem. Over the years, this knowledge has also given him the ability to develop golem like resistances...'

Edit2: Maybe this shouldn't be a golem hunter, but a golem-master - in addition to the above abilities 'For the sacrifice of a small part of his own flesh (10% of max HP), the Golem Lord can create a golem that will obey his every bidding. Unfortunately, due to the adhoc nature of the creation, the golem will only remain for a short while (2 turns).'

Edit3: Is it possible to create a kit that is tied to a multi-class?? If so, how about a F/M kit - the Golem Lord? On a different note, particularly for a single class fighter, make the Golem Lord have a high minimum intelligence (to understand all those intricate bits and bobs)

Man, I wish I'd thought of that Golem-master idea -- clearly there are many deep and profound brain things inside your head....


Seriously, I think it would be much more fun to play that way, than with the suggestions I made earlier in the thread.

Thaks for the suggestions, everyone!

I still need to think more about this new kit idea.

@methusalar



The problem is that those golems don't actually have those abilities. Furthermore, I can't see how a fighter can gain the ability to shape change. Studying golems could give the fighter knowledge of how to strike golems more efficiently or how to forge a specific weapon against golems; but it's not easy to accept that he can gain shape change ability. The ability to shape change to golems is very similar to the 9th level wizard spell and it doesn't look very suitable for a fighter kit. Thanks for the suggstion, anyway. As smr49 said, you have found a nice idea. Perhaps, with some modifications, it can be a good idea for a new mage spell.

Maybe you could make a ring from the various golem parts, which only the golem slayer kit can use -- the ring might allow them to shape change into a golem of choice, but it's brief, and a once-a-day thing. That might be a way to keep it both in a fighter/ranger kit, but still keep it from being over-powered... *arched eyebrow*

'Trained since a young age to act as bodyguards to mages in the Golem Workshops of Abuz, these Guardians have been granted abilities to help protect their masters when the mages' creations run amok - an unfortunately common event. It is openly recognised that without the Order of Guardians, there wouldn't be many golem mages left.'

Advantages:

2%/level resistance to crushing damage
Immunity to slow at level 6
Immunity to poison at level 11
Does double damage to golems
Automatically has the hammer 'Golem Unmaker' - this hammer can only be used by Guardians and gets upgraded as the character goes up in levels. The hammer does double damage against golems (bringing the total to quadruple damage) and starts off at level 1 as an ordinary warhammer for to hit and damage purposes. At level 3 and every 5 levels thereafter (8, 13,...), the hammer is upgraded by +1 (to hit and damage), to a maximum of +6 at level 28.

Disadvantages:

min intelligence 15

Thats's all for the moment! Can't think of any more relevant disadvantages (but contenders are - no plate mail, due to all the metal interfering with the mage's spellcasting; no more than two stars in anything other than hammers, due to focussed training).

I also still like the whole golem summoning bit, so how about a magical item, gifted from the Guardian's mage, that summons a golem for a limited period of time:

Golem Statuette (received on reaching level 6):

Can only be used by Guardians
Will summon a golem once per day for a short period (2 turns)
Golem type depends on caster level (6-10:flesh; 11-15:clay; 16-20:stone; 21+:iron)
Due to the nature of golems, it is necessary for the caster to imbue the golem with some of his lifeforce. On casting, the Guardian will suffer damage equal to 10% of his max hp (it should be noted that the strain of casting has killed many a Guardian who was already weakened).

My God, man!

Great start for that idea...

It's an honour to serve

Well, min INT is not that much of a disadvantage AFAIK. Game will roll it automatically anyway.

Fair point!

I just can't think of any other disadvantages that don't seem fairly abitrary (the two I mentioned above aren't bad, but not great either).

I thought that INT and WIS affected some of the save rolls?

You could always set some of the save rolls lower to force the affect (e.g. saves vs. wands, breath, pet). That way, there would be some real disadvantage when facing non-golem enemies...


*edit* - I think letting the player choose the type of the golem might be better (with available choices increasing per level), rather than forcing the type based on level. Most of the time, a clay golem is the best thing out there, since a vast majority of enemies don't do crushing damage and couldn't hurt it. I'll take a clay golem over an iron golem any day...

On second thoughts, it is a bit of a disadvantage, as you can't reduce your Int to 3. (if your natural roll was 11, the computer will automatically raise it to 15, which is great, but you lose out on potentially spreading 8 points around elsewhere; and what use is 15 Int to a fighter?)

Back to the disadvantages - how about giving dexterity a max of 16/17? Derived from all your training being focussed on trying to land heavy blows on large slow creatures; and not finesse.

Thanks for all additional and new comments.

I am also in favor of making it a fighter kit rather than a ranger. This is not because a ranger kit may be incompatible with some other mod. In general, I don't think that compatibility concerns are enough to hinder a good kit idea. My reason to prefer the kit to be a fighter is that I don't want to confine the kit to good aligned characters.

As for advantages, a general immunity to slow is too much, because many other enemies cast slow on you. But I can make the kit immune to the golems' specific slow ability. In this way, the kit will be immune to golems's slow but not to slow effect in general.

A golem slayer weapon with less than +3 enchantment will be useless, because it can't scratch the new golem types. Please note that our main concern here is the new golem types added by IA. I guess (though I may be wrong) that methusalar has not played the mod yet (perhaps he/she is waiting for v4.0 which is the correct decision).

A dexterity penalty looks fine, but perhaps we need more disadvantages for the kit. a penalty to AC vs, missiles is also logical but it will not very effective in practice because few enemies use missiles in the game as far as I remember.

I don't like a background story which makes this sort of warriors "servants" of arch-mages. The anti-golem abilities can best be acquired through fighting against mages' strongholds rather than serving them. (Besides, it doesn't look nice that a high level fighter reads in his character sheet that he has learnt all of his special fighting abilities just becuase he was a mage's servant.)

Please keep sending more suggestion. Perhaps we can reach a good list of advantages and disadvantages. We have had some progress so far, for sure. Thanks again, everyone.

Quite correct, very excited about it though, but hanging in there for v4.0.

re the +3 issue: Is this really a problem? Using my (fairly arbitrary and easily tweaked) progression above, the Golem Slayer would have +3 weapon by level 13 - do you need a stronger weapon before then?

...Otherwise, the weapon could be made to be able to strike all golems, regardless of it's 'surface' enchantment level.

As for the new kit's name, do you like "Deconstructor" or "Golem Destroyer" or "Golem Slayer" or "Dismantler"? (or do you have a better suggestion?)

What about the weapon's name? Any of the abovementioned four names for the weapon? Any new suggestions?

Golem Slayer certainly sounds cool, and is very literal, but I think Dismantler would be an even better name, given the kit's purpose.


Maybe a lower armor class against slashing and piercing as a disadvantage? That would certainly encompass the majority of the non-golem enemies you run into.