BG1 is a PG13 game, so the developper to start with did not intend it for children. There are characters in BG1 that say stuff like "Will one of you rugged adventurers give me a good, hard shag?"

The mods/mods components are sometimes rated as well (for example some of BG1NPC Romances are rated R for language or adult situations), while the mod itself is the same as the game, to avoid embaracing the selective players. It will be nice, if people used the rating system more vigorously.



And that is why the authors who have guts to carter to adult audience and have no pangs of guilt about it, read so real and have their own appreciative following. (Points to Martin).

In other words, do what you feel is right, just warn the consummer about it. I always make a point of explaining that Martin is gritty, uses the obscenities and does not draw curtains when his characters decided to make love, when I recommend his books. Yes, I love what he does. No, I don't expect everyone to agree with me that it is how it should be done.

I second that.

I hate cRPGs aimed for early teens, not to speak about those aimed kids.
I think that we need more M and R content in mods, not making mods that underaged players can play "safely".

I prefer real word profanities, because they are more natural than and have more power than invented ones.
Profanities are used to make sentence more powerful, and using non-real profanities makes sentences less powerfull, or even makes an impression that the speaker is trying to avoid using profanities.

@Sorrow - Real world profanites detract from the game in my opinion. They add absolutely nothing. Invented profanites that makes sense in the game world have more power.

I don't think anyone could create a mod that used real world profanities liberally and didn't add a sense of 4th wall breakage.

How could not using profanities give an impression that the author is trying to avoid using profanites? I could understand if you add frell to the end of every sentence but likewise adding f*ck to the end of every sentence isn't going to make it more powerful either. To me adding real world profanity gives the impression that the author is adding it just to add it.

@Domi - we are not talking about Martin here. Adding profanity to a mod is not about having guts to cater to an adult audience. Adult content is a different matter if it is done tastefully. Unneccessary profanity is about bad writing if you can't say what you mean in plain english. You will see more "damns, shards, hells" etc in fantasy literature than you will "f*cks, w*nkers and d*cks" and to me it is the former that has more power than the latter.

Profanity *is* neccesary, because it can be used to show that a character is stressed, aggressive or plainly primitive.
A lot of criminals, policemen, soldiers and students use obscene profanities so often that they become interpunction marks because they are often in very stressful sitations, so I think that similiar characters in fantasy world should also use a lot of obscene profanities.
I don't think that cursing about hell, damnation etc. is as satisfying and relieving as using profanities that refer to sexuality and excrements .

To a certain extent, profanity is necessary to add realism to the game when interacting with the lower reaches of the society (peasants, farmers, soldiers, guards, etc.) or with those with lesser intelligence who can't come up with better words to express their opinions. Profanity should not be overused, as Rabain said, since it usually brings the game to a lower level.

I don't mind when human waste is used profanely or as an insult; however I dislike it when sexual words are used profanely or as an insult (that includes homosexuality).

-Galactygon

Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in the core game. Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in a mod and does not does not have more a comedic effect than emphasising stress, agressiveness etc.

PC gets petrified by a basilisk, Imoen: "Shit!"...fade to black.

Irenicus leaves spellhold with charname's soul, as he walks away he hears a voice mutter... "w*nker!".

The only real world profanity that fits into this world is B*stard and that is because it retains some of its medieval effectiveness as a slur upon ones parentage.

Creators of the core game failed to use profanity and it makes an impression that most of characters in game are good mannered people who do everything to avoid using profanity.



I think that profanity needs to be used with skill.
Profanity needs to be used in the way the real people use it.
And I think that calling someone's mother "a filthy orc riding wh*re" is more effective than plainly calling him b*stard.

Baldur's Gate/mods uses whore and whoreson quite liberally, actually. Make a search with the NI.

I used profanity in two cases:

In Dynaheir's Romance, to relieve the somewhat somber and serious mood of the mod, I gave PC some silly options, such as him making a relatively suggesting comment and her replying with the stuff found on the Elizabethian English swear-words generator (pox-ridden son of a saw, etc). I find that it can be a short funny escape form a too serious conversation for a certain player.

In Shar-Teel's case, I wanted her to be rougher and cruder than she was in the game, hence, I rated her romance R, and used as much shit, bugger, sexual references and violence as I wanted in her dialogues, because it felt right to me, and one of the things I really wanted was for this romance to be different from Viconia's.

On the other hand, I wrote plenty of the gentle/poetic/sappy stuff as well, for different characters.

As I pointed out some profanities are acceptable others are not. Saying bugger, whore or using outdated real world profanities are fine because they convey meaning while not being overly gratuitous in a real world context.

I have no problem with calling someone "a son of filthy orc riding whore" because you wouldn't use that in your everyday conversation with one of your friends would you? Calling someone "a son of a f*cking slut" in the same situation would not be okay in my opinion as it does not fit into the setting.

Someone calling HD in a mod a "homo" would not work for me, it just reeks of real world bias. Calling him a man-loving popinjay might be okay or any other appropriate slur if you are of that opinion about him.

I was enjoying the discussion with Rabain, and we actually agree on more points than disagree. For one, f-word, imo, while not inappropriate in the bandit camp, will need to be introduced throughout the game in the appropriate places (Slums etc) to make it fit. Just throwing it into an NPC mod will stick out.

I am sorry, if the issue interested me enough to post in the forum - I actually was thinking about it for the past few weeks a few times.

Baronius, if you would be able to snip the thread and transfer it to the General, I will gladly play the ball with those who play nicely. And, Sohlside, thank you for prompting an interesting discussion. I enjoyed seeing others' POVs on that fascinating subject.

Split done.

Now, since we are in the appropriate thread, I would like to summarize my opinion as well.
In your mod, if you have to express the momental agression/disappointment/surprise of a character or his/her intention to insult the other character, you can do it without using real life profanity. So I absolutely agree with the following:

Found it! Was looking for it in the General Modding Discussion.

Anyways, to continue the thought: I was thinking that Rabain *is* right about a single character starting to use the language a level hoter than that in the game, would stick out badly.

Unless, maybe, if the guy is supposed to be despicable or very tough/rough. Hate to quote Jordan here, but he had a relatively sucessful joke with one of his characters who could not speak without adding swear words, and it was literaly a problem for him to maintain a few sentences omitting Jordan's substitutes for the strong words. Again, he also used it as an interesting twist making his noble ladies to swear using it as a weapon to shock people into letting them get their way.

Both situations, imo, will transfer well into banter/character development, and can give some flavor.

On another hand also, does not it feel strange, that in places like Bandit Camp, Slums, Pirate City, Docks we do not have rough-talkers?

While I agree with Rabain's earlier sentiment that for some characters, like Irenicus, Aran or Pirate King this is out of character and their flowery speech patterns are spot on, the regular gang members, and characters like Tazok or many of the evil ogres that now have "dat weird speak" would be more believable if they foul-mouthed both the friend and a foe.

Also, why is swearing so stoldidly avoided? The game serves us with the horrific scenes of violence. Pretty much everyone had mumbled an oath in their life or have heard one uttered. Thankfully, much less people had to kill or where attacked. I know that the violence is less offensive argument is old as world, but I think it's true nontheless.

Thoughts?

It depends on the writer.

It very much depends on the writer.

Some authors can pull it off, some cannot.

My favourite (unpublished) fantasy book so far is so full of f-words, c-words and s-words I could make a separate chapter full of them. On the other hand, in another piece, two "shits" in completely unappropriate places made me scream: "vulgar!" and delete the thing from my machine permanently.

Of course, it depends on the reader, too.

Now, what do I, as a reader, think:

(Imaginary in-game situations)

In lovetalk "Shit, tell me that you love me!" - vulgar;
In before-battle talk "You son of a bitch/bastard/whatever" - appropriate
In casual conversation "This slut uses you!"/"Hells, I don't know!"/"Shit, she's pregnant!" - normal;
In casual conversation "Yeah, yeah, I've had enough of this shit" - vulgar;

Basically, I feel any word is appropriate - if the situation demands it (emotional outburst) and if the situation allows it (the setting is not romantic, it is not a major game path.) Also, character's traits must be accounted for: if one moment, she speaks like: " Although I would imagine everything else was... you always were a rather rampant one." and next moment "Fuck it then kill it" (Fade romance) it doesn't sound terribly convincing to me.

In the original game, the swearing there got style. ""Will one of you rugged adventurers give me a good, hard shag?" - it's got a _look_. Now, on the other hand, "Hey, babe, let's f---!" is *yawn* outdated.

Hmm, to be honest, I did long for f-word for Irenicus when he shows up for the third time and starts his tirade. Honestly, that was summarizing my feelings at that point adequately, and yep, I did have protagonists to fit the bill.



That's a tough one, actually. I have no trouble believing that highly educated and well-mannered people go rough in the field.

I have seen it, having worked in the oil fields. And once you spend months with the roughnecks who use f*ck as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, and every other grammar form, and replace at will pretty much every other word with it (the joke is that F**in' is the supplier of all the oil-field equipment) it takes time to santize your own speech. In other words, I have no trouble beliving neither tha talk about the stars, no coarsest language possible in the field situation. Have seen both.

Then, there is a persistent joke, that noble ladies always demonstrate a surprisingly good knowledge of vulgur language, and can make a fisherman blush. It has a shocking value, it is easy to do, it's exciting. It will work for me, if done right. For example that lady who is a kidnapping victim or Lady Delcia...

One idea I had for MV was the corrupted Imoen/Korgan duo (as Korgan and Imoen had a competition of sorts who can shock/disgust more people) shocking Nalia with vulgarisms, till the corrupted Nalia responds in kind and makes Korgan almost cry.

On another hand, a commoner who tried for a while to emulate the ways of the nobles, can slide back into the patterns of his.her childhood with ease when upset. Again, a good point of the character dev.



Oh, I agree here. It is not a coincedence, that Korgan - at least in my humble opinion - is the most difficult NPC to capture. He is vulgar, well-spoken and smart at the same time. And funny to boot. But, those are memorable characters. What do you expect to hear when you open the door into this cave that has the imprisoned gnolls in the bandit camp?

Anyways, I think, I wrote all this just because its fun to think of the stuff like that (call me weird) but I do agree with you on the main idea - it goes when it goes well, and works. I only think that a mod needs to be rated, to make sure people don't get surprised.

The problem with modern swear words is that they have a meaning outside of the intent you might be trying to capture in FR dialog. You can't replace the meaning these words have for the person reading them. I am speaking here of the common swear words such as F*ck which ifself is probably the most common in the English language these days. Of course you can't replace the meaning of any word for the person reading it but swear words are what we are discussing.

Even words like shag, that used to be used almost solely in a vulgar context have taken on comedic value by being associated with media such as "The Spy Who Shagged Me". It has lost some of its profanity by being absorbed into the language via comedy and made "popular".

I will always subscribe to the philosophy that for modding purposes it is best to stick with what is commonly used and try to say what you need to say with an appropriate profanity for the setting instead of trying to justify using a profanity because "that is what I would say in that situation in RL". I would much prefer to hear Korgan say "That slaver should be buggered by an elephant" than say "That slaver should be ass-f*cked 'til he bleeds". I don't think I need to state which one I think is plainly wrong.

There has probably been more profanity used in this thread than you will ever see in any mod!

From Korgan or similar type, I would actually preffer the later to the former. Buggered by an elephant is something out of Jan's repertoire, I think. It does sound funny and improbably, while f*ck'd bloody sounds more rude, more authentic, scarier. But that's me

When I read the original 'so far, sooooo good' post, I too had felt the urge to reply something as Sohlside's post raised some interesting issues which I think never have been discussed before. Sadly it got a bit out of hand. Well, never take anything personal when it's written on a discussion forum.
Luckily the discussion is now in the environment where it belongs.

Now to my opinion.
First: I believe BG was not made for little kids, especially not BG2 - hints at rape or unwanted sexual touches (Imoen), sexuality as a weapon to gain power over others (Viconia), profanities in dialogue (quoted above) are not really regular elements in games for 10 year olds.

Second: A mod automatically raises the minimum age of the gamer - just implementing and finding mods isn't that simple (*cough* good old BP-install *cough*), working your way around bugs, regular re-installs etc. is even more difficult - So I think we are always dealing with a rather adult public anyway, some level of profanity or adult language and themes is thus no problem, IMO (cf. FlirtPack, Kiara-Zaiya, Shar-teel-Romance for BG1) - For those who absolutely don't like adult themes or profanity a warning might be a good idea, most mods with such content do warn the end-user extensively anyway.

Profanity can be implemented in a good and in a bad way however. It's not something to use at every twist and turn - and when writing dialogue, especially verbal conflicts, I too have felt the urge to use it extensively - it somehow feels natural - but I think the end result will rarely please the reader for different reasons.
1. There are not that many NPCs around who could use profanity in a believable way (Cernd using profanity )
2. It is dangerous to project things we are used to do, to our NPCs and characters. I think we might be more easily be inclined to use profanity in serious verbal conflicts, than characters in BG. Why? A well-placed insult in our world will in most cases only result in bitter and grim feelings. I guess a character who is used to live on the edge of a sword, who has killed many times, is far more likely to answer with direct physical retaliation (Anthropology will back me up here) - and I am not only thinking of Korgan, I can as well imagine Keldorn or Ajantis doing it -more by means of a knight-like challenge, but as inescapable as a direct well-meant smash on a thick skull.
So I would warn against using profanity too easily, in banters f.e. I would only use them when characters are at some sort of breaking point.
3. Profanity is rarely as effective as cleverly-designed dialogues. f.e. I can't remember Edwin using any profanity, but that doesn't make his remarks and comments less 'stingy', on the contrary.

-insert profanity here-, I have been ranting again.
To summarize: Profanity can be used in a mod, but think twice before using it, my feeling is one might be inclined to use it more than it is appropriate. This thread is the ideal way to make people think about it, at least it made me think about it (it made me even reread some of my dialogues )

I second that.

Personally I think that old profanities don't have as much impact as modern ones because to me it's hard to treat "bugger" as a profanity.
For example in my language "kobieta" which meant "whore" now is used as a "woman", so I can't imagine even using it in it previous meaning.

Yes, agreed.

Basically, I was thinking about that ever since I wrote Shar, because one of the characters I am currently working on I did model to use obscenities extensively, and there are a few things I want to mull over, and well, talking with self is not the best form of discussing

The frequency is a very good point - Kulyok first raised it.

The two thing might happen (just like with every speech quork):

1) The profanity becomes commonplace and does not stand out. Say, we go to Slums, and everyone we meet spouts f**n' this and f**n' that. I don't think it's bad when it creates atmosphere. After a while the player stops clicking on the commoners, knowing that they will talk differently there than in, say, Promenade. But for an NPC boredom is a dismissal from party.

2) It can actually become annoying, just like it is annoying in RL. Worst than boring, because smaller things caused people to spend hours and hours actually hating an NPC. Not loving to hate, mind. Nothing wrong with that one.

So, like with all risky choices, it is definetly an issue toseek the feedback and probably from more than one person before finalizing the talks.



For me original Edwin sounds too contrived to be a good alternative, to be honest. From all the "insulters" Jan is probably my favorite.

They may not have such impact, but the modern ones kill the effect as well because of their modernity. I would feel myself the same way as Rabain after such a profanity in a mod.
They kill the effect because I want to feel myself in the medieval age (or in the world of the story that happened long ago), and they simply don't fit that age.

And we should never forget that these profanities might offend many of the mod's players. It is always more elegant to avoid their use. There are other good ways as well to stress something when needed.

I think that if PC is offended by profanities, she should tell the person that uses profanities to stop doing so.
It may lead to interesting situations, for example getting in fight with a band of ruffians.

I think profanities should fit in the setting first, that's why I don't like to read things like 's**t', 'f**k' or 'mother**er'. Things like 'bastard' or anything which directly attacks the honour of a character or that of his parents fit far better in a medieval fantasy setting - people then where far more concerned about things like pride, honour and standing and not as obsessed with the sexual as we are, in our post-Victorian era. So I agree with Baronius and Rabain on this point.
That's why I don't like either of Rabain's Korgan-quotes - I would rather have him say something about butchering and killing, not refraining from any gory details, than use a sexual theme - but that's probably because I can't help but consider dwarves as some sort of a-sexual creatures.

Also - profanity can generally be avoided, without touching the content of what one tries to achieve. An example I wrote yesterday for an 'evil' reply by the PC. Context: you have found a ten year old boy, barely alive, but - being evil - just left him to die there. Few moments later PC meets the panicking parents who ask him if he has seen their son. A modder might write 2 different replies, one containing profanity:
~Oh yes, that pig is down there. The son of a b**ch got himself hurt too. But what the f**k, why should I care about such a brat. Now p*ss off, pathetic peasants.~ // Ok I've overdone it here but you catch my drift

One without:
~Oh yes, your son is down there. Got himself hurt quite badly too. If you are quick you might still watch him die though, he was still twitching a bit when we left.~ //This is what I consider a mocking, cold-hearted Edwinesque reply, but I agree Bioware's Edwin doesn't say these sort of things enough.

I think an uninspired modder (and every modder is an uninspired modder once in a while ) might be temped to use something like the first quote, just to stress the evil, arrogant and rude character of an NPC or a reply - but almost always he will just show that he had no inspiration for a better alternative.
One might reply that some characters (like f.e. Shar-teel) are not sophisticated enough to say a thing like that or that one has to have the possibility to play an incredibly uncultivated PC too - but then again, why include such a thing when it might offend people and when it's not necessary?

On the other hand, I was thinking about a scene where a female PC or NPC gets harassed sexually (horny comments, hands where they shouldn't be,...) in a BG1 inn, by some drunk ruffians. I believe no profanity at all in such a context would be unconvincing, so there will be some there. But, having read this thread, I should make this an optional element or at least warn the gamer who downloads my mod about it. (EDIT - hadn't read sorrow's post when I posted this - we were obviously thinking in the same direction.)

On your idea of an NPC using profanity extensively, Domi - you've already said yourself what the problems could be with that - and these 'traps' might be difficult to avoid. In RL there is little I have less patience for than gratuit profanity and uncalled-for rudeness, so you're NPC might go down the drain rather fast on my comp., unless you give him a very good reason to talk like that, a good background story and/or interesting side-quests and write him/her very well. But if the profanity is overdone and gets on my nerves, even that might not save him.

*sigh* why do I never manage to reply with a short and to the point answer?

Yeeeeees?

(You are really, really making such a mod?)

I strongly disagree with that. The subject may have been taboo amongst the upper classes, but human sexual urges have changed very little over the millennia. In medieval times, sex was a frequent topic of discussion for groups such as miners, farmers, lower-end craftsmen (e.g. blacksmiths), guards, sailors, etc.

Going even further back, there are examples of societies which were in some ways even more liberal than the modern western world. For example, in Roman society, barely anyone saw anything wrong with bisexuality or homosexuality, many people (particularly nobles) deemed incest to be acceptable, and orgies were commonplace.

Well, I have been thinking about one such scene - I don't think it's that unusual in a fantasy game (not PnP anyway, computer games are usually a bit more careful with such a theme) - It's a perfect start for a good barfight isn't it? - I wasn't planning to let it come to rape or make it too gross, if that's what you think. - just the usual annoying drunk-man's talk and behaviour.



I know, I am an ancient Historian - and I think I could tell you things about especially Roman sexual ethos... I believe you're wrong on incest and orgies, though. The latter were not THAT common, and on the first you're correct only if you replace incest with pedofilia (which is not entirely the same thing - you keep away from your own children or other children from your social class, but children of slaves are yours for the taking. )

I probably should have explained myself better, cause I actually did mean the opposite of what I seemed to imply. I wasn't referring to our liberal attitude on the subject - rather the opposite, our lack of it. I believe we are still somehow trapped in the Victorian Age - a bit like f.e. a satanist who denies everything a christian affirms and affirms everything a christen denies, is still trapped in a christian way of thinking.
I believe our way of talking about everything sexual betrays that in a way. It's not a coincidence allmost all our 'profanities' and insults circle around sexual themes, and not f.e. around honour and pride, the social status of your parents, etc. It's also remarkable that when we talk about sex or f.e. hear people talk about sex, profanities are rarely absent.
I honestly don't know if the miners, farmers, from the past talked differently, somehow a bit more at ease, about sex, but I think it might be possible, especially in a pre-Victorian or better a pre-christian/pre-stoic age. One thing which is certain however is that not only those at the bottom of the social ladder talked openly about sex (Doesn't the fact that we associate talking about sex primarily with them indicate something?) - in certain symbolic ways (- you don't believe that a medieval bard who wrote a song about brown and white bread, was actually singing about bread, do you? ) or just open and direct (like the ancients did - look at some Aztec, Mayan, Egyptian pottery or mural paintings!).
Of course this is a matter of opinion - and a rather complex historical/anthropological discussion at that.
I only wanted to say that I consider our mostly sexual profanities most of the time out of place in a mod (or any fantasy setting) - The way these fantasy worlds seem to be designed (Sune, Sharess in DnD, Rahja in DSA) implies a different view on anything sexual.

Oh, yes - mods which employ open rape at the moment do it rather clumsy, to my mind - and I doubt there's any real need for it in BG. The original story is excellent in this regard - and it only got hints. Just look at "Did Irenicus rape Imoen?" thread.


But a bit of drunk talk, some ruffians, some more bar fights, some innuendo - I would grab such a mod with both hands.

(Especially a scene where my male protagonist saves Nalia from some louts, and another scene, where Anomen smacks a guy who suddenly decided to pinch my female protagonist's rear. Just an example.)

There's been a bit of discussion over at SHS about it, and I agree that some tavern/drunk activities are sorely lacking. Really, these poor bandits in the Copper Coronet, who only get to you if you talk to them first, are not much of a replacement.

And as for profanity... well, creativity gallore! Quite a field there.

Reading Decameron, I was thinking that the society was obssessed with sexual topics and references in quite the same way in Real World. I was reading that Medici's book lately, and not only it gave me an impression of free morales, where males were concerned -it was normal to keep a pleasure slave girl, and have the bastards raised in the household with the true-borns- but the amount of children fathered per male, ye gods! Eight true-borns and thirteen known bastards.... And that's on sickly males too.... There is just absolutely no way that there were no overt sexual references in the conversations. I think it was Lorenzo himself, or some of the early Medicis who was renown for his bawdy songs. Why, if I remeber correctly, Cezare wrote boasting about six trips he made on his wedding night...

FR is an Americain franchise marketed for teen audience, and we all know that US is quite puritanistic in general. We had it out of Greenwood's own mouth that he was heavily cenzored, with the ridiculous substitutions such as festhalls instead of brothels...



Hmmm, those two are not equivalents, actually. First conveys the "I don't give a damn" attitude of a brawny huge guy, you've bumped into while making your way around the inn, second is solicitous and shows that the character actually enjoyed the show, and expects the others to do so too; I would expect the second to speak up to the PC, while the first answers. If they were both PC options, I would not mind having both to chose from.



Sorry, cannot help but smile at "gratuit", was listening to Martin yesterday, and he was talking a bit about "gratuit" questions that are asked of him (Not many people object to graruit feasting... ) anyways, I am digressing. And yes, the NPC does have more to him than swearing to it.



Rape is a common crime though, and always comes in package with wars... One of the things, I would not have minded is a bit more actions after the fall of Saradush for the PC who'd like to actually save someone, and succeed in a few case; that he will see those he could not save, etc, instead of just Mellissan showing up and summarizing it for him in a couple of sentences.

Domi: Who is Martin?

G.R.R. Martin is the best fantasy writer -though of course some would disagree, but that's what I think - and an author of the widely popular series A Song of Ice and Fire. It is set in the rich and dangeros world of Westeros, and is polpulated with the incredibly vivid characters. The trademarks of the series are the bright colors, no mincing words, no silly omissions, unpredictable twists, fantastic plots and subplots, intriguing political games, flawed and very "real" characters, and good, but not boring pshycological portrail.

It's awsome, awsome, awsome!

And to add to it, George Martin is a great speaker. He was doing signing for the Feast for Crows, the 4th book in the ASOIF, in Calgary yesterday, and I am still unable to think about anything else. Wait, I will get home tonight and going to upload a pic we made yesterday... I can't wait to boast about it. I just *adore* the series and the characters from the series. I even have some artwork for the series in my cubicle at work to have something to rest my eyes upon.

In short, if you get an impression that I am a rabid fan, well, that's a correct impression - I am a rabid fan!

I think that sexual harassment would be very interesting.
It's worth mentioning that some adventurers, both male and female may be equally nasty as ruffians and more difficult to get rid off.

I think that making such thing an optional component would be equally silly as making being tortured by Irenicus an optional component, though a warning is a good idea.

I wonder when someone will make a R-rated mod



Are there any mods that allow PC to have some fun, not only her enemies?
I think that making a mod, where PC can be harassed/raped but she cannot rape anyone is very unfair.
Why wouldn't PC (especially the evil one) want to rape someone?

When I was beginning to make a module that I'm working on now, I planned to allow raping and degrading peasants, commoners and other weak characters .

Sadly, I had to make some cuts to make all the mod content fit the convention (no dialogues, only monologues) and dialogues are gone.

I don't understand, why <CHARNAME> must always be a victim, not a perpetuator of such activities .

Including Aerie, I guess. Would you please take these ideas somewhere else, as I strongly distaste this sort of thing. Mods featuring such ideas are not welcome here.

I think stealing, hurting, and killing innocents, looting tombs and betraying people who trust is enough for <CHARNAME> to act out her feelings of ill mindedness without the need of diving into the deep, dark area of sexual harassement. The latter is much too real to be included into this fantasy game, thank you very much.

To be honest I don't think you could do rape in BG even if you wanted to.

Rape as a dialog option would be laughable.

I would agree that making a mod that included rape would be a waste of time.

You can probably do an option that summarily allows the protagonsit to announce his descision to rape and pillage the community once he entered it, and then script the commoners to the chaos and trying to fight it; you can have nj NPCs running to him/her with the accusations, attacking him after that event in a big city or something; have some former innocent girl turned whore have a drunk talk in Galvena's festival or something to that extent. The thing is, that evil deeds have ridiculously little psycological consequence in Baldur's Gate. I was walking around, my reputation 5, SHar-Teel scowling from behind my back, and nobody cared that I killed out of spite from time to time; nobody accused me of killing/raping/mutilating their mother/father/brother whatever and brought the guard, or called for the city to burn me. Duke does not know about your bad fame, you are scolded and jailed for killing Rieltar, when you should have probably be called to justice way before that...



I am sorry, Jastey, but I simply don't understand how rape is the no-no, when the rest is perfectly Okay in the fantasy game. Rape is a staple of the fantasy genre after all. We all know why Elrond rules alone, right? Or are you suggesting to assume that the "rapes do not happen" because "it is always the woman's fault" or some horrible excuse like that that was used for years and years and years to avoid the "embarassing" prosecutions?

I don't believe inlcuding rape as an option for the PC would add anything to the game - on the contrary, just like Jastey and Rabain, I would consider it a waste of time (and be proof of a lack of taste too). What's next? - pedofilia? - (did I spell that correct, I have just discovered I seem to own a 'censored' dictionary ) There is a moment where good taste ends and bad taste begins, and I think giving the PC the option to rape, crosses that border (by the way, where will you make it end. It doens't take the PC too long to become so powerful that he might be able to rape anyone he wants - are you going to include additional options for every female in the game then, from peasants to NPCs?)

I agree with Domi that rape is a part of situations of war, disorder and the like, but I agree with Kulyok when he says that Bioware handled the theme well by just hinting at it or suggesting it might have happened.
As Domi suggests: The fall of Saradush could indeed have been used to make <CHARNAME> more emotionally involved, showing what is really at stake in these 'spawnwars' - but I would rather just stay on the 'hint' level there too (torn clothes, empty look in the eyes,...) - It might give 'boring' TOB a more lively and realistic feel - but we all know what has happened without it being written all over the screen.

What annoys me when I try to play an evil NPC - but if he makes Beregost he's lucky, they tend to annoy me sooo fast - just because all the evil options Bioware has given are so totally devoid of meaning or purpose. Playing an evil PC eventually always means playing some contradictory, unbelievable lunatic - acting evil but constantly fulfilling good quests. Rape would only add to that immensely.
So rape, no thanx.

(If someone would write a mod, in which an evil PC is able to develop some sort of evil masterplan (like Sarevok or Irenicus), hunting down other Bhaalspawn to 'be the last one left' or instigating a 'war of sarcrifice' - now that would be something! But I doubt anyone has that much time.)

And Domi, I think that last attack on Jastey was really uncalled for - in no way did she suggest she believes in that sort of sexist nonsense.

I did not mean it as an attack, but I feel that it is a double standard when people say that you can't talk about rape.

It is a horrible crime, hard to swallow, disgusting. How is it possible to just turn away and say - we are not going to talk about it, because, you know, it is too... bad taste? If we all turn away, and close our ears, and shoo each other when someone dares to say "rape", it will sure go away or don't touch our lives.

Too many people already see "evil" NPCs as "cool", not realizing what "evil" includes. Evil in BG is just the same as good, appart from killing a couple more peasants, and having a low reputation. Killing is so absolutely sterile and painless. The peasents falling to your sword do not scream, their bodies do not swallow and stink. This is one of the reasons why I like the Skin Dancers quest in BG2. There is no ignoring flayed corpses there.

I want an evil NPC to be confronted with a distraught young kid, wielding a sword, and shouting that he'd raped his sister, killed his father, and I want PC to bloody deal with it, if he wishes to play evil. And, the Alignments should be flexible, changeable.



The Masterplan will ultimately remove you from the game; because the real Masterminds do not run around the country side slaughtering their opponents. They sit in a comfortable chair somewhere far away, and sign orders. Think about Role-Playing Sarevok. In the beginning of the game you'd attacked a powerful mage and kill him. Zip.

You sit in the palace in Baldur's Gate and get reports from the idiot underlings who fail to kill Candlekeep orphan, and at the same time spending money on establishing the Undercity's temple, maintaining appearances with the nobles, and commanding the dopplegangers to kill and take shapes of the other people. Then you do an excursion to the library and kill Rieltar. Then you wait for the Charname to show up and you have a final battle.

Instigating a war is more of a strategy game, than an RPG of Baldur's Gate style.

But is the same scene not as effective when you let the same boy confront, say some soldiers who did it after the fall of Saradush? I agree it is a strong image. By adding rape as an option for the PC, don't you risk making it a part of the 'coolness' of being evil? I mean, if you're already so 'blind' as to consider slaughtering peasants cool? I agree Bioware made the evil PCs victims non-persons (just like in Hollywood movies) and maybe, making them become persons might dissuade kids from thinking evil is cool, but can that only be achieved by giving the PC as disgusting an option as rape?
- I have created a small village for my mod, with each villager his own personality, nicely ordered in 'families' - who act as part of a family when the PC starts acting evil or when someone dies. It might already lessen the 'coolness' of acting evil - might the option to rape someone in that village do really that much more?



That depends - Sarevok becomes quite 'static' indeed - but you might confront him with betrayal, Harper attacks, trials, etc. Irenicus f.e. is far more active - he battles the Thieves himself, gets captured and frees himself and personnaly leads his golems in his attack on Suldanessalar - so a masterplan does not necessarily involve becoming passive - it totally depends on how the writer sees it.

Re: Sarevok/Iernicus - the footwork is usually reserved for the small folk - and yes, wether we want it or not, but ridiculously, not only BG1, but ToB until the moment of taking the throne of Bhaal, you are playing a small fish. Such a travesty it was being a Lord in the Nalia's castle! While I would very much want to see a talented meld of a CRPG and a strategy - I was myself thinking of a game with a Court Bard as a protagonist whose goal was to maneur through the court intrigues/plots that of course required more than just talking your way out of the situation... but I digress. Yes, ridiculously, you do not play a sexy and grand figure like Irenicus or Sarevok, if you are evil. You play a fly in the nets.



Ah, but here rape, again, has the stigma attached to it - murder can be cool, even heroic. Though, I do wish that some crazed woman ran to a PC and called him a bloody coward if s/he slaughtered a peasent and then attacked him/her with her bare fists.... Rape can never be noble. Another "never can be noble" is torture. Add to PC the options to have a member of your developed family tortured by your NPCs (say, Viconia) to tell where they hide their values or as a reward for a passionate night. Give their girl to Edwin to play with. Laugh drunkedly with Korgan as he shortens the longshanks by cutting ther feet off. Now, then, you give PC the decidedly non-noble, non-sexy evil choices.

As opposite to making him think that he'd rather kill that annoying female character who is a mother of five kids and speaks of nothing but them or snorts at you like Lady Delcia, than that cool character B.

Yes, I agree with you that adding personality is a great step in de-blanking the murders, but without taking away the evil=selecting a sword and clicking on the nj NPC, without making the PC to put in words his actions, you will not achieve the trully horrifying effect. Because BG is not a movie, in BG, the emotions are expressed through words.

In my Kivan's mod I have a bad, nasty scene, and I had Kulyok comment to me about it, while beta-testing: Sorry, but I will not do it. And that is the responce I am seeking from the player. Aversion to an evil deed, no matter who commits it. I know why Kivan would want to do it. I sympathize, but I want the PC if s/he choses an evil alternative of the quest to face the music.

In order to truly represent evil you would have to make it unplayable and if you can manage that then why did you do it in the first place?

I think currently people are trying to make BG2 have all the options you would get in RL in the same situation. That is never going to happen and modders should stick to what works in the game as it stands now.

How long could the PC really get away with rape and pillage before he was persona non grata in every town, city and village in Amn? Likewise for most of the other extreme acts of evil. The game should become unplayable if things have gone that far because in SoA you are not a god just yet and it is only a limitation of the engine that you don't get slaughtered for the crimes you perpetrate by the law enforcers of wherever you happen to be. You can't have it both ways, how long before someone like Elminster steps in and hands you your ass on a plate?

Then let him step in! Just don't give him a can't kill item. PC if sane will know that he has to have power to support his lawlessness. PC's death is a legitimate end of the game. It is a CRPG after all. You fail, you die.

Plus, evil tends to attract evil, so your alliances will be with the followers of Talona in Trademeet who'd establish a tyranny there, where you could go unpunished, while you act in accordance with the evil guys wishes or something like that.

You could create a mod that does that yes but to what end? You would then have to include in the mod that you are no longer welcome in Athkatla or it sphere of influence and pretty much forego the whole storyline of the game.

This kind of thing is best left to a TC of some kind and even there to be honest I think players would become bored pretty quickly with the limitations of playing evil. Yes there could be more quests for evil characters etc but no need for more "extreme" evil, it quickly becomes bogged down in it's own consequences.

So, if male is raped by a woman or other male it isn't rape?



I think that the deep, dark area of sexual harassement is more interesting than gutting people and smashing their heads and being stabbed and slashed with sharp objects if one looks at it from a right perspective.
Of course having PC succesfully raped or harassed is bad, but having PC succesfully rape someone is good (Kali's morality in working ).

Also, I find topic of murder, thievery and having trust betrayed as real as rape and frankly, I would prefer to play game where PC is rapist than to play a game where PC is attacked by assasins and other unkind people that want to hurt her.
The latter is much too real to be included into this fantasy game .



That part of the game sucks. Sometimes I think that they made this game for feeblehearted goody-goodies.
Abominable lack of psychological realism made me hate that game.
I liked Fallout 2 a lot more, because it was a lot harder to become a shining goody goody from frenzied berzerker childkiller.



I disagree.
I think that adding rape would allow evil PCs an option of doing something evil without getting into the absurdal mass murderer cliche.

I didn't say it's perfectly OK. I said I don't understand that Sorrow needs more morbid possibilities to act out his fantasies in the game. For me sexual harassement is something I can see in my life, getting killed for a theft is not. As Rabain said: Giving a mod all possibilities you would expect in RL is not appropriate.

No.

Interpretation and assumption of what I've written is carrying you away here. No, I definitely did not suggest anything like that nonsense.

This is sick, sorry.

Let me try to explain it this way - I have no problems with people announcing that they are going to make the bestest NPC of everyone's dreams and do not repeat everyone else's mistakes every other month. I support them in whatever they are interested to bring to the table, even if I in all honesty am bored stiff with BG2, and don't see a point of starting a new NPC to the tired BG2. Yep, that *includes* Kivan. On the other hand, other people love their NPCs, they see the point in making their mods, and there are those who'd play them.

I, myself, did start a very evil concpet I wanted to integrate into BG2 - my Midnight Visitor. I would have done it too, if I could keep myself interested.

Will the mod fly or not, one cannot tell. But I think that if we were restricting ourselves to what there already is in the game, we would be still romancing Anomen. Trying something to see if it works never hurts. If the work will end up boring, nobody will play it. If people would rather put their manhours into the development of the happy and cautious mods, fine and good.

His wife, Arwen's and her twin brother mother, had been waylaid and raped by orks. Unable to put this experience behind herself, she went to the Undying lands that have a healing effect.

Why?

You cannot have it both ways, which is essentially my argument against this kind of extremity in the game. The PC is not the most powerful being in the world in SoA, at the beginning you are apparently taken unawares by Irenicus. Forget about Irenicus raping Imoen, what happened to you while you were unconcious? If you want to rape someone in the game, learn to live with being raped too.

The option is only being entertained because as a modder you could possibly add this to the game, that does not mean you should and it would not make the game more real either. Lets create a mod where the PC has a 9-5 job and has to pay rent, tax and living costs. After that we will talk about realism as I am sure 99% of the population of Faerun work most of the day much like anyone in the real world. Carry out your rapes and murders in your spare time (if you have any) and try to avoid Johnny Law each time. That would add real realism alright.


There is a slight difference between adding something new to the game and adding the option to rape whoever you wanted. I think you would agree with this, no? It was an interesting conversation either way!

I don't think it would make a big difference to PC...

But I think that anti-threefold law would apply - since world raped PC, so PC shall rape world three times.
An interesting concept - PC gets raped and gests her revenge by raping 3 random persons.



How about PC being a depraved rich noble with influential parents?
Or a bandit or soldier?
There are many realistic possibilites of PC commiting crime and getting away with it.

Indeed. I will always speak against indulgence, with NPCs or PC. No Mary Sue free rides. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I have an option to tell that PC was raped by Irenicus/his cronies. I freely admit it.

In MV, if PC was not powerful enough, but was stupid enough to play with the dangerous man, he would force his opinions and desires on her, and yes, he would make her agree to sleep with him because he needed it for his plans. And you know what? I was writing those heart-wrenching hard dialogues, and people were *really* shocked when Boo was killed.

In other words, you can't know what exactly is scary. But, in my case, why I am so ardently defending the more painful content is because I, as dialogue writer, am tired of writing sweet or elevated only... and in such wast quantities. I do want to use black.

Adding rape to a game might be tempting because you can try something in a game without consequences which you can't do in the real life (normally), and this is what makes games tempting. (Just like you can be a terrorist in SWAT). But it won't make BG better and more interesting. We're modders, and make content enjoyable for players (I ignore someone's comment that she makes mods only for her own entertainment -- in this case she shouldn't release them in the public and shouldn't talk about them). Some players might find it funny "Wow I raped this and that" but the majority wants new quests, new NPCs, dialogues etc., they want quality and not such low things.

And the blurb "AD&D/BG/whatever was not meant for kids" has no meaning for a real modder. It may be true, but mods look and work like we, the modders, make them. It's easy to use the quoted statement as an excuse when we want to add e.g. adult content. Additionally, regardless it is meant to be for kids or not, there are younger people who play the game, and play our mods.

Adding rape as a player option doesn't make a mod good. It's entirely okay when an external NPC such as a bandit tries to rape someone, because it's realistic and also acceptable, unlike the "player option" version. As Rabain has said, there are things that are simply not so important in the world of Faerun that they should be represented in the game. We need new and nice. This is a world about tales, legends, dragons, demons, kings & wars, let's be elegant when we decide to touch it and modify it. A real modder uses imagination, and doesn't try to alter this nice world of fantasy by adding the aforementioned option or anything similar.

Excuse me? I worked on BG1NPC solely for my own entertainment, I did stuff for it when nobody believed that it can be done, and lots of people enjoyed the end result of my labors. Was I wrong to do it? I do it for myself, I have fun with it, then I put it up for download and let people decide if they like it or not. The best way of doing bussiness.



And one of the repeated complaints about the new quests, new NPCs and new dialogues is that there are no adequate evil player options. It was a complaint voiced over and over and over for many, many years.



Because PC is by definition a lawful good paladin?




Are you telling me that dragons and demons are nice? Why do you think dragons in all tales abduct young maidens then? And demons, don't they like... torture people? Or should we make them pink, fluffy and nice? The whole race of half-orks is labeled as "the product of rapes". How about Khalid's mother, one of many elves captured by humans of Calimshan, sold as sex slaves and who died of abuse? There are spells in your spellbook that make a person's blood boil, or burn them into a pile of ashes, or shot them with acid. The area where the game takes place is called Sword Coast - for a good reason too. Human life is cheap there, both to kill and to sell as a slave. And you are telling me it is a nice place? That there are no low things happening there every step of the way?

I mean, Salvatore, your 100% "for young adults", Salvatore has rape scenes in Cleric Quintet.

There is a place for the Mwa-ha-ha-ha, but I am a grandiouse villain who is going to conquer this world, destroy it and speak in elevated soliloques type of evil. But there is also a common-place, creepy, all-reaching evil, and there is no world that is devoid of it, apart from some Utopia.



Ah, so, now we are going to divide the community on the "real" modders and not real modders? Who like should not trail mud on our white carpets? Don't know how about modders, but the advice given to a writer is always: write what you know. That means - write the real feelings, and write trying to awaken the real feelings; or at least try to. I know that as a woman from a large and dangerous city I was raised and lived in a fear of rape or an assult because I had to go home late after after-school programs. Even living in a safe community now I still have this fear. It is a real thing. While, I don't think that I have ever experienced a murder, and I don't know how it feels to go and kill living people. So I write what I know and what frightens me. Again, I don't insist that everyone *should* do that, but I would appreciate if people did not use the *real modder should not* for the reverese situation. Though, maybe I am just an unreal modder or something. Only, like worked on mods for four years and stuff.