Profanity in mods, [split by Baronius; Domi's request] Options

[Domi]

BG1 is a PG13 game, so the developper to start with did not intend it for children. There are characters in BG1 that say stuff like "Will one of you rugged adventurers give me a good, hard shag?"

The mods/mods components are sometimes rated as well (for example some of BG1NPC Romances are rated R for language or adult situations), while the mod itself is the same as the game, to avoid embaracing the selective players. It will be nice, if people used the rating system more vigorously.

I guess this is why most sci-fi/fantasy tv creates new profanities - frac, frell etc

And that is why the authors who have guts to carter to adult audience and have no pangs of guilt about it, read so real and have their own appreciative following. (Points to Martin).

In other words, do what you feel is right, just warn the consummer about it. I always make a point of explaining that Martin is gritty, uses the obscenities and does not draw curtains when his characters decided to make love, when I recommend his books. Yes, I love what he does. No, I don't expect everyone to agree with me that it is how it should be done.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 9 2006, 09:03 PM

[Sorrow]

I second that.

I hate cRPGs aimed for early teens, not to speak about those aimed kids.
I think that we need more M and R content in mods, not making mods that underaged players can play "safely".

I prefer real word profanities, because they are more natural than and have more power than invented ones.
Profanities are used to make sentence more powerful, and using non-real profanities makes sentences less powerfull, or even makes an impression that the speaker is trying to avoid using profanities.

This post has been edited by Sorrow: Jan 9 2006, 11:00 PM

[Rabain]

@Sorrow - Real world profanites detract from the game in my opinion. They add absolutely nothing. Invented profanites that makes sense in the game world have more power.

I don't think anyone could create a mod that used real world profanities liberally and didn't add a sense of 4th wall breakage.

How could not using profanities give an impression that the author is trying to avoid using profanites? I could understand if you add frell to the end of every sentence but likewise adding f*ck to the end of every sentence isn't going to make it more powerful either. To me adding real world profanity gives the impression that the author is adding it just to add it.

@Domi - we are not talking about Martin here. Adding profanity to a mod is not about having guts to cater to an adult audience. Adult content is a different matter if it is done tastefully. Unneccessary profanity is about bad writing if you can't say what you mean in plain english. You will see more "damns, shards, hells" etc in fantasy literature than you will "f*cks, w*nkers and d*cks" and to me it is the former that has more power than the latter.

[Sorrow]

Profanity *is* neccesary, because it can be used to show that a character is stressed, aggressive or plainly primitive.
A lot of criminals, policemen, soldiers and students use obscene profanities so often that they become interpunction marks because they are often in very stressful sitations, so I think that similiar characters in fantasy world should also use a lot of obscene profanities.
I don't think that cursing about hell, damnation etc. is as satisfying and relieving as using profanities that refer to sexuality and excrements .

[Galactygon]

Profanity *is* neccesary, because it can be used to show that a character is stressed, aggressive or plainly primitive.
A lot of criminals, policemen, soldiers and students use obscene profanities so often that they become interpunction marks because they are often in very stressful sitations, so I think that similiar characters in fantasy world should also use a lot of obscene profanities.

To a certain extent, profanity is necessary to add realism to the game when interacting with the lower reaches of the society (peasants, farmers, soldiers, guards, etc.) or with those with lesser intelligence who can't come up with better words to express their opinions. Profanity should not be overused, as Rabain said, since it usually brings the game to a lower level.

I don't mind when human waste is used profanely or as an insult; however I dislike it when sexual words are used profanely or as an insult (that includes homosexuality).

-Galactygon

[Rabain]

Profanity *is* neccesary, because it can be used to show that a character is stressed, aggressive or plainly primitive.

Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in the core game. Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in a mod and does not does not have more a comedic effect than emphasising stress, agressiveness etc.

PC gets petrified by a basilisk, Imoen: "Shit!"...fade to black.

Irenicus leaves spellhold with charname's soul, as he walks away he hears a voice mutter... "w*nker!".

The only real world profanity that fits into this world is B*stard and that is because it retains some of its medieval effectiveness as a slur upon ones parentage.

[Sorrow]

Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in the core game.

Creators of the core game failed to use profanity and it makes an impression that most of characters in game are good mannered people who do everything to avoid using profanity.

Give me an example of where profanity is used effectively in a mod and does not does not have more a comedic effect than emphasising stress, agressiveness etc.

PC gets petrified by a basilisk, Imoen: "Shit!"...fade to black.

Irenicus leaves spellhold with charname's soul, as he walks away he hears a voice mutter... "w*nker!".

The only real world profanity that fits into this world is B*stard and that is because it retains some of its medieval effectiveness as a slur upon ones parentage.

I think that profanity needs to be used with skill.
Profanity needs to be used in the way the real people use it.
And I think that calling someone's mother "a filthy orc riding wh*re" is more effective than plainly calling him b*stard.

This post has been edited by Sorrow: Jan 10 2006, 10:37 AM

[Domi]

Baldur's Gate/mods uses whore and whoreson quite liberally, actually. Make a search with the NI.

I used profanity in two cases:

In Dynaheir's Romance, to relieve the somewhat somber and serious mood of the mod, I gave PC some silly options, such as him making a relatively suggesting comment and her replying with the stuff found on the Elizabethian English swear-words generator (pox-ridden son of a saw, etc). I find that it can be a short funny escape form a too serious conversation for a certain player.

In Shar-Teel's case, I wanted her to be rougher and cruder than she was in the game, hence, I rated her romance R, and used as much shit, bugger, sexual references and violence as I wanted in her dialogues, because it felt right to me, and one of the things I really wanted was for this romance to be different from Viconia's.

On the other hand, I wrote plenty of the gentle/poetic/sappy stuff as well, for different characters.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 10 2006, 11:21 AM

[Rabain]

As I pointed out some profanities are acceptable others are not. Saying bugger, whore or using outdated real world profanities are fine because they convey meaning while not being overly gratuitous in a real world context.

I have no problem with calling someone "a son of filthy orc riding whore" because you wouldn't use that in your everyday conversation with one of your friends would you? Calling someone "a son of a f*cking slut" in the same situation would not be okay in my opinion as it does not fit into the setting.

Someone calling HD in a mod a "homo" would not work for me, it just reeks of real world bias. Calling him a man-loving popinjay might be okay or any other appropriate slur if you are of that opinion about him.

[Domi]

I was enjoying the discussion with Rabain, and we actually agree on more points than disagree. For one, f-word, imo, while not inappropriate in the bandit camp, will need to be introduced throughout the game in the appropriate places (Slums etc) to make it fit. Just throwing it into an NPC mod will stick out.

I am sorry, if the issue interested me enough to post in the forum - I actually was thinking about it for the past few weeks a few times.

Baronius, if you would be able to snip the thread and transfer it to the General, I will gladly play the ball with those who play nicely. And, Sohlside, thank you for prompting an interesting discussion. I enjoyed seeing others' POVs on that fascinating subject.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 10 2006, 04:08 PM

[Baronius]

Split done.

Now, since we are in the appropriate thread, I would like to summarize my opinion as well.
In your mod, if you have to express the momental agression/disappointment/surprise of a character or his/her intention to insult the other character, you can do it without using real life profanity. So I absolutely agree with the following:

I have no problem with calling someone "a son of filthy orc riding whore" because you wouldn't use that in your everyday conversation with one of your friends would you? Calling someone "a son of a f*cking slut" in the same situation would not be okay in my opinion as it does not fit into the setting.

[Domi]

Found it! Was looking for it in the General Modding Discussion.

Anyways, to continue the thought: I was thinking that Rabain *is* right about a single character starting to use the language a level hoter than that in the game, would stick out badly.

Unless, maybe, if the guy is supposed to be despicable or very tough/rough. Hate to quote Jordan here, but he had a relatively sucessful joke with one of his characters who could not speak without adding swear words, and it was literaly a problem for him to maintain a few sentences omitting Jordan's substitutes for the strong words. Again, he also used it as an interesting twist making his noble ladies to swear using it as a weapon to shock people into letting them get their way.

Both situations, imo, will transfer well into banter/character development, and can give some flavor.

On another hand also, does not it feel strange, that in places like Bandit Camp, Slums, Pirate City, Docks we do not have rough-talkers?

While I agree with Rabain's earlier sentiment that for some characters, like Irenicus, Aran or Pirate King this is out of character and their flowery speech patterns are spot on, the regular gang members, and characters like Tazok or many of the evil ogres that now have "dat weird speak" would be more believable if they foul-mouthed both the friend and a foe.

Also, why is swearing so stoldidly avoided? The game serves us with the horrific scenes of violence. Pretty much everyone had mumbled an oath in their life or have heard one uttered. Thankfully, much less people had to kill or where attacked. I know that the violence is less offensive argument is old as world, but I think it's true nontheless.

Thoughts?

[kulyok]

It depends on the writer.

It very much depends on the writer.

Some authors can pull it off, some cannot.

My favourite (unpublished) fantasy book so far is so full of f-words, c-words and s-words I could make a separate chapter full of them. On the other hand, in another piece, two "shits" in completely unappropriate places made me scream: "vulgar!" and delete the thing from my machine permanently.

Of course, it depends on the reader, too.

Now, what do I, as a reader, think:

(Imaginary in-game situations)

In lovetalk "Shit, tell me that you love me!" - vulgar;
In before-battle talk "You son of a bitch/bastard/whatever" - appropriate
In casual conversation "This slut uses you!"/"Hells, I don't know!"/"Shit, she's pregnant!" - normal;
In casual conversation "Yeah, yeah, I've had enough of this shit" - vulgar;

Basically, I feel any word is appropriate - if the situation demands it (emotional outburst) and if the situation allows it (the setting is not romantic, it is not a major game path.) Also, character's traits must be accounted for: if one moment, she speaks like: " Although I would imagine everything else was... you always were a rather rampant one." and next moment "Fuck it then kill it" (Fade romance) it doesn't sound terribly convincing to me.

In the original game, the swearing there got style. ""Will one of you rugged adventurers give me a good, hard shag?" - it's got a _look_. Now, on the other hand, "Hey, babe, let's f---!" is *yawn* outdated.

[Domi]

Basically, I feel any word is appropriate - if the situation demands it (emotional outburst) and if the situation allows it (the setting is not romantic, it is not a major game path.)

Hmm, to be honest, I did long for f-word for Irenicus when he shows up for the third time and starts his tirade. Honestly, that was summarizing my feelings at that point adequately, and yep, I did have protagonists to fit the bill.

Also, character's traits must be accounted for: if one moment, she speaks like: " Although I would imagine everything else was... you always were a rather rampant one." and next moment "Fuck it then kill it" (Fade romance) it doesn't sound terribly convincing to me.

That's a tough one, actually. I have no trouble believing that highly educated and well-mannered people go rough in the field.

I have seen it, having worked in the oil fields. And once you spend months with the roughnecks who use f*ck as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, and every other grammar form, and replace at will pretty much every other word with it (the joke is that F**in' is the supplier of all the oil-field equipment) it takes time to santize your own speech. In other words, I have no trouble beliving neither tha talk about the stars, no coarsest language possible in the field situation. Have seen both.

Then, there is a persistent joke, that noble ladies always demonstrate a surprisingly good knowledge of vulgur language, and can make a fisherman blush. It has a shocking value, it is easy to do, it's exciting. It will work for me, if done right. For example that lady who is a kidnapping victim or Lady Delcia...

One idea I had for MV was the corrupted Imoen/Korgan duo (as Korgan and Imoen had a competition of sorts who can shock/disgust more people) shocking Nalia with vulgarisms, till the corrupted Nalia responds in kind and makes Korgan almost cry.

On another hand, a commoner who tried for a while to emulate the ways of the nobles, can slide back into the patterns of his.her childhood with ease when upset. Again, a good point of the character dev.

In the original game, the swearing there got style. ""Will one of you rugged adventurers give me a good, hard shag?" - it's got a _look_. Now, on the other hand, "Hey, babe, let's f---!" is *yawn* outdated.

Oh, I agree here. It is not a coincedence, that Korgan - at least in my humble opinion - is the most difficult NPC to capture. He is vulgar, well-spoken and smart at the same time. And funny to boot. But, those are memorable characters. What do you expect to hear when you open the door into this cave that has the imprisoned gnolls in the bandit camp?

Anyways, I think, I wrote all this just because its fun to think of the stuff like that (call me weird) but I do agree with you on the main idea - it goes when it goes well, and works. I only think that a mod needs to be rated, to make sure people don't get surprised.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 10 2006, 06:14 PM

[Rabain]

The problem with modern swear words is that they have a meaning outside of the intent you might be trying to capture in FR dialog. You can't replace the meaning these words have for the person reading them. I am speaking here of the common swear words such as F*ck which ifself is probably the most common in the English language these days. Of course you can't replace the meaning of any word for the person reading it but swear words are what we are discussing.

Even words like shag, that used to be used almost solely in a vulgar context have taken on comedic value by being associated with media such as "The Spy Who Shagged Me". It has lost some of its profanity by being absorbed into the language via comedy and made "popular".

I will always subscribe to the philosophy that for modding purposes it is best to stick with what is commonly used and try to say what you need to say with an appropriate profanity for the setting instead of trying to justify using a profanity because "that is what I would say in that situation in RL". I would much prefer to hear Korgan say "That slaver should be buggered by an elephant" than say "That slaver should be ass-f*cked 'til he bleeds". I don't think I need to state which one I think is plainly wrong.

There has probably been more profanity used in this thread than you will ever see in any mod!

[Domi]

From Korgan or similar type, I would actually preffer the later to the former. Buggered by an elephant is something out of Jan's repertoire, I think. It does sound funny and improbably, while f*ck'd bloody sounds more rude, more authentic, scarier. But that's me

[Thauron]

When I read the original 'so far, sooooo good' post, I too had felt the urge to reply something as Sohlside's post raised some interesting issues which I think never have been discussed before. Sadly it got a bit out of hand. Well, never take anything personal when it's written on a discussion forum.
Luckily the discussion is now in the environment where it belongs.

Now to my opinion.
First: I believe BG was not made for little kids, especially not BG2 - hints at rape or unwanted sexual touches (Imoen), sexuality as a weapon to gain power over others (Viconia), profanities in dialogue (quoted above) are not really regular elements in games for 10 year olds.

Second: A mod automatically raises the minimum age of the gamer - just implementing and finding mods isn't that simple (*cough* good old BP-install *cough*), working your way around bugs, regular re-installs etc. is even more difficult - So I think we are always dealing with a rather adult public anyway, some level of profanity or adult language and themes is thus no problem, IMO (cf. FlirtPack, Kiara-Zaiya, Shar-teel-Romance for BG1) - For those who absolutely don't like adult themes or profanity a warning might be a good idea, most mods with such content do warn the end-user extensively anyway.

Profanity can be implemented in a good and in a bad way however. It's not something to use at every twist and turn - and when writing dialogue, especially verbal conflicts, I too have felt the urge to use it extensively - it somehow feels natural - but I think the end result will rarely please the reader for different reasons.
1. There are not that many NPCs around who could use profanity in a believable way (Cernd using profanity )
2. It is dangerous to project things we are used to do, to our NPCs and characters. I think we might be more easily be inclined to use profanity in serious verbal conflicts, than characters in BG. Why? A well-placed insult in our world will in most cases only result in bitter and grim feelings. I guess a character who is used to live on the edge of a sword, who has killed many times, is far more likely to answer with direct physical retaliation (Anthropology will back me up here) - and I am not only thinking of Korgan, I can as well imagine Keldorn or Ajantis doing it -more by means of a knight-like challenge, but as inescapable as a direct well-meant smash on a thick skull.
So I would warn against using profanity too easily, in banters f.e. I would only use them when characters are at some sort of breaking point.
3. Profanity is rarely as effective as cleverly-designed dialogues. f.e. I can't remember Edwin using any profanity, but that doesn't make his remarks and comments less 'stingy', on the contrary.

-insert profanity here-, I have been ranting again.
To summarize: Profanity can be used in a mod, but think twice before using it, my feeling is one might be inclined to use it more than it is appropriate. This thread is the ideal way to make people think about it, at least it made me think about it (it made me even reread some of my dialogues )

[Sorrow]

From Korgan or similar type, I would actually preffer the later to the former. Buggered by an elephant is something out of Jan's repertoire, I think. It does sound funny and improbably, while f*ck'd bloody sounds more rude, more authentic, scarier. But that's me

I second that.

Personally I think that old profanities don't have as much impact as modern ones because to me it's hard to treat "bugger" as a profanity.
For example in my language "kobieta" which meant "whore" now is used as a "woman", so I can't imagine even using it in it previous meaning.

[Domi]

So I would warn against using profanity too easily, in banters f.e. I would only use them when characters are at some sort of breaking point.

Yes, agreed.

Basically, I was thinking about that ever since I wrote Shar, because one of the characters I am currently working on I did model to use obscenities extensively, and there are a few things I want to mull over, and well, talking with self is not the best form of discussing

The frequency is a very good point - Kulyok first raised it.

The two thing might happen (just like with every speech quork):

1) The profanity becomes commonplace and does not stand out. Say, we go to Slums, and everyone we meet spouts f**n' this and f**n' that. I don't think it's bad when it creates atmosphere. After a while the player stops clicking on the commoners, knowing that they will talk differently there than in, say, Promenade. But for an NPC boredom is a dismissal from party.

2) It can actually become annoying, just like it is annoying in RL. Worst than boring, because smaller things caused people to spend hours and hours actually hating an NPC. Not loving to hate, mind. Nothing wrong with that one.

So, like with all risky choices, it is definetly an issue toseek the feedback and probably from more than one person before finalizing the talks.

3. Profanity is rarely as effective as cleverly-designed dialogues. f.e. I can't remember Edwin using any profanity, but that doesn't make his remarks and comments less 'stingy', on the contrary.

For me original Edwin sounds too contrived to be a good alternative, to be honest. From all the "insulters" Jan is probably my favorite.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 10 2006, 08:56 PM

[Baronius]

Personally I think that old profanities don't have as much impact as modern ones because to me it's hard to treat "bugger" as a profanity.

They may not have such impact, but the modern ones kill the effect as well because of their modernity. I would feel myself the same way as Rabain after such a profanity in a mod.
They kill the effect because I want to feel myself in the medieval age (or in the world of the story that happened long ago), and they simply don't fit that age.

And we should never forget that these profanities might offend many of the mod's players. It is always more elegant to avoid their use. There are other good ways as well to stress something when needed.