IA v5 bug thread Options

[lroumen]

Torgal casts Hold Person on my Undeadhunter who is immune to hold. In addition, nobody else is close enough to my char be affected too.

[Sikret]

In v5, enemies wouldn't check for immunties of particular kits; in v6 they do.

(It couldn't be called a "bug" of v5 though)

[lroumen]

Good to hear that you take kit immunities into account in v6.

And yes, of course it's not a true bug, but I thought I'd just let you know

[Shadan]

I think this is not bug... Imho enemies shouldn't know exactly which character belongs to which kit exactly, so they shouldn't know exact immunities of my characters, neither immunities from kit nor immunities from items... I don't know this about enemies also, and I can do only a try and error type reloading if I fail with something, but sometimes I can win and don't need to reload even if I cast 1-2 spells which doesn't affect any enemies. So imho AI cheats if he exactly knows what immunities do I have cause of kits and items. This is why I didn't like the change in barbarian backstab immunity... Enemies with BS now won't attack my barbarian, so this is useless fuature of the class, since I always have at least few characters who are not protected from BS (via spell, item or ability). So basically barbarian BS immunity is nothing more than " hey you should BS my other character" ability... which is not useful in a party at all... Probably it would be better if barbarian wouldn't be immune to BS, since he has most HP in the party, so it is the best if he eats BS not the weaker partymembers. The only advantage of this ability when ALL of my character is protected from BS (via spell, item, ability, or maybe extrem low AC), but this is very rare, and special party composition needed.

[matti]

Yeah, you definitely have a point there, but I think all this changes are justified coz enemies have no chance to figure out player's party immunities (via reloading, using different kind of weapons, etc.) ....but player have, right? I mean that this is still "enemy AI have no brain and should be compensating for this" thing.

[lroumen]

I think that at some point you're going to have to put in things like this into the AI, otherwise it wouldn't be a challenge anymore. They would just waste spells or attacks on characters that are immune... and there is already plenty of that going on.
In vanilla you could just send one character ahead to soak all of the spells and attacks while the rest just stood back and either pelted the foe with spells and ranged attacks or you stood back and waited for the foe to be out of spells. I think it's rather good that the AI gains some intelligence. I'd recognise a barbarian if I saw one and as a result I wouldn't backstab him, would you? Same with monks, paladins, druids... you'd know how to recognise most immunities without attacking.

I guess there is some foggy line where you can not say, hey, he's obviously immune to xxx, let's not use that against him (i.e. immune to fire through gear.... how would you know such a thing other than trying?), but I'd rather have a smart foe than a pidgeon.

[Vuki]

I think Iroumen is more or less right. It is easy to recognize a monk but I do not think the same about barbs. But it is still acceptable.

But I think these are still reasonable tactics for the AI. It is a workaround because I do not think that it is possible to script a protection recognizing algorythm. If it is possible then it would be the best option. Backstab the barbarian till the first time in the battle and then never again (at least not in that battle). Or cast magic on character who has MR till it first resisted (except in case of monks and resistance from spell protection).

[lroumen]

Oh much of that is possible but you need to keep track of a lot of variables that way.

You can see an example in the modding forum on scripting NPC behaviour. There it shows that the AI calculates the amount of times it has been hit by fire damage and then you're supposed to script in that you cast protection from fire.

http://forums.blackwyrmlair.net/index.php?showtopic=3946

Same can be done with spells to an extent.

[matti]

I think Iroumen is more or less right. It is easy to recognize a monk but I do not think the same about barbs. But it is still acceptable.

But I think these are still reasonable tactics for the AI. It is a workaround because I do not think that it is possible to script a protection recognizing algorythm. If it is possible then it would be the best option. Backstab the barbarian till the first time in the battle and then never again (at least not in that battle). Or cast magic on character who has MR till it first resisted (except in case of monks and resistance from spell protection).

Yeah, but how exactly would it work? For example, Guildmaster battle: thief backstabing my barb, no effect, "darn, he's a barbarian, imma not backstabing him again!", but there is more thiefs, in fact they are crawling all around running like a madmen in backstabing furioso, so everyone of them should backstab my barb at least once and then not doing it again? It doesn't make much sense to me. They are high-level expierenced assassins, they are able to sense barbarian from here to the Spine of the World. ;]

[lroumen]

If they are smart assassins then they would all pick a different target of course!
Therefore, only one has to try it on your barbarian and then if it fails (which you probably still detect by immunity from backstabbing) you simply set a global variable such that this foe is not a target for backstabbing anymore. Once the battle is over, you have to clear the global variable though otherwise it'll be in the memory for all thieves with that particular script. The code would be tougher to write than it seems though...

[Shadan]

To recognize barbarian from sight? Maybe... To recognize Undeadhunter and recognize he is not simple paladin or another paladin kit? Never.

Yes, I am aware these things are needed somehow to make game more difficult because AI cannot try and reload... But this doesn't change the fact: barbarian BS immunity is not an advantage of the cast now... quite opposite...

If 30 assasin attack my party in guildmaster battle, 1 assasin SHOULD try to BS my barbarian. Then he can shout to others: "He is immune." Then all other asssasin who is still invisible or hiding, can BS any other class and ignore my barbarian. I am not modder, maybe this is a dream only, but this would be the best. Of course if nothing changes, game and mod will be still good, just barbarians (and undeadhunters) have one less usufull ability.

Lets check magic res for example. Enemies are immidiately aware if any char has MR. If she is Viconia, then OK. If MR comes from item it maybe ok (for example Carsomyr is quite remarkable I think). But even when AI cheats and without any good reason he knows my char has high MR and he behaves accordingly (ie. cast Lower Res.) still MR is not useless since it bought 1-2 rounds for my party when enemy used LR instead of devastating other spell. However this is not valid in case of barbarian and BS or undeadhunter and Hold.

[Kerkes]

hmmm...interesting discussion.
I believe enemies simply MUST behave in an "intelligent" way, otherwise the game would be too easy (for example, not casting ADHWs on Poseidon, not wasting DB on fire immune char etc).
I am not sure about barbarians however..it doesn't actually write on their forehead - hey, I'm a barbarian, don't backstab me since I'm immune to it or whatever.
Personally, I'd leave as it is, and not take away their immunity to it.
I like the idea about "cast/use once, if char immune don't again" (how on earth do enemy mages know that Poseidon gives ADHW immunity!?) but I don't know if you cAN write a code for it, and I somehow doubt Sikret would do it anyway. It's still exploitable by equiping/unequiping equipment and stuff like that however.
There are also enemies in IA immune to BS and not Barbs anyway, take Pai-na which is a Druid or something. I can understand thieves being immune to it, but for some enemies I don't understand their immunity to BS.

[Sikret]

There are also enemies in IA immune to BS and not Barbs anyway, take Pai-na which is a Druid or something. I can understand thieves being immune to it, but for some enemies I don't understand their immunity to BS.

Assume that some enemies also (have access to and) use potions of Barbarian Essence before the battles in the same way that you do. It's easily justifiable, because IA has introduced this new type of potion to the game (and enemies who are immune to backstab are not very frequent).

[Kerkes]

I know they're not frequent, it's just that I fail to see reasoning behind it. And barbarian essence potions are really not that common . Besides, would u use it against some 12 lvl poorly equiped party even if you had it? . Moreover with Ironskins...

[Sikret]

Yes, if I knew that that 12th level party were going to kill me, I would certainly use it.

[Kerkes]

Too bad it does not help

[matti]

If 30 assasin attack my party in guildmaster battle, 1 assasin SHOULD try to BS my barbarian. Then he can shout to others: "He is immune." Then all other asssasin who is still invisible or hiding, can BS any other class and ignore my barbarian. I am not modder, maybe this is a dream only, but this would be the best. Of course if nothing changes, game and mod will be still good, just barbarians (and undeadhunters) have one less usufull ability.

I'm not a modder, lol, my modding knowledge is nonexistent, but I think that this is too much work (for a modder) for exactly the same effect when thiefs simply recognize the barb on sight. One wasted backstab is totally irrelevant/inessential in this case, effect is the same, imo.

[Purifier]

Improved Firecam Armor AC is -2. After forging item true AC is 0. Bug?

[Sikret]

Improved Firecam Armor AC is -2. After forging item true AC is 0. Bug?

Yes, it's fixed in v6.

[dofri]

Heya, not sure if it has been reported, but i found the ring of djinni summoning lying around in a place its probably not supposed to be.

Its in Aran Linvails room in one of the containers, since it is an item that is supposed to be made from several components i doubt it is intented.