Profanity in mods, [split by Baronius; Domi's request] Options

[Baronius]

Exactly. I never said that you (or anyone else) shouldn't. I just said my own opinion. 

Then, perhaps, you might try to use the constructions like "I think", "In my opinion", as opposite to the "players need", "we want/do not want", "that should not/should be done". In other words, less "we", more "I". Then I won't be tempted to tell you: "You and what army?"

I used "we" in the meaning of "we, modders", I'm sure this has been clear from my posts. Feel free to tell what you feel, by the way. I don't have an army, but I do have many supporters in my viewpoint. From this aspect, the word "we" can also be understood as a reference to my "army", i.e. to those who share my opinion; which is correct.

But of course I take it personaly, because I gave examples of actually using rapes in my mods. Quite often, really. In your opinion, a real modder won't do that. Hence, I am not a real modder. On another hand, if I am a real modder (in your opinion), than you agree that a real modder can use rapes in his or her stories.

I didn't say you're not a real modder (which can't have an accurate definition anyway); but yes it's true that in this question (integrating that kind of violance to mods), you don't suit my picture of a real modder. I do have right to have an own opinion and picture of a modder.
But maybe I shouldn't examine your thoughts and opinion as the opinion of a modder (in the "strict" interpretation of the word), since you are mostly writing dialogues to my knowledge, which is only one part of modding, with less technical (file editing, complex scripts) work and much more writing work. So in this respect you're a dialogue writer primarily. (Dialogue writing is one of the most important parts of modding, so don't get me wrong: I said it is a part of modding only, but I didn't say it would be less important or less appreciated than other areas.)
And a dialogue writer has other motivations than a modder who creates the mod from the first brick to the last.

And believe me, hurting others can be veeeeeeery satisfying and therefore can be called "fun" .

Nonetheless Rabain may have a point there that the real personality and desires of villains might be much more complex than just a few bandits' who kill/rape/loot/humiliate/etc. people just for pure fun.

[Rabain]

Oh, so she raped him because she didn't care?

My point was that you assumed it was fun when you do not truly know if it was. If you think it was that is only your assumption and not the actual truth.

I was talking a specific situation, where attacker uses weapon to force victim to do what attacker wants.

Yes but this was in response to a point where I was making a point based on being murdered or being raped not both. Don't change the argument to something else halfway through.

Living in constant paranoia (it's the only way that PC could survive) and in constant danger is a traumatic experience IMO.

Perhaps you would live in constant paranoia in that situation, I would not. Regardless, I do not think that <charname> could survive through all those events, carry out a romance, pursue a powerful mage, confront other children of bhaal, defeat them and then battle to fulfill his destiny if he spent every minute being paranoid about being in danger. <charname> seeks out danger at every opportunity throughout the storyline of BG! If we were to follow your example <charname> should lock themselves in a room in the Copper Coronet at the beginning of the game and refuse to come out!

The problem is that a lot of people refuse to reject evil people, because they are to cool to be rejected*.  There a lot of people that forget that simple truth.

Again you are assuming that what has happened in one situation holds true for all. Hitler only had power in Germany, people didn't refuse to reject him because he was cool. They were afraid to reject him because if they did they would be killed. The rest of the world didn't think Hitler was cool, you saying he was cool does not make him cool no matter how much you might want it that way.

I think this debate could go on forever. For my own part I think I've made my point of view clear and so I'll leave it there.

[Sir-Kill]

There 254 distinguished shades of gray between black and white I suspect that there are at least that many between good and evil.

Some good points have been made on both sides (to my surprise)

[Baronius]

I remember that someone (maybe it was you, I am not sure) said the she would make the mod exactly in the way she likes it even if no player would prefer it in that way at all, i.e. that players needs/requests/feedback are not important at all when developing, only what the author likes. I say yes to this, but then such a mod shouldn't be published.

The feedback/ideas/etc are fine, but the descision is ultimately the author's. And I don't understand why it *should not* be published? Especially the use of *should* . I think the author have the right to ultimately decide if s/he wants the feedback during the developmental stage or not, and if s/he wants to put the mod up for download or not. It is also the author's decsision on what to do with the mod after the release - to keep it up for download, discontinue it after a while, etc.

You are right here. Also, when I said that a mod shouldn't be released if the players' needs are entirely different than authors concept, I assumed that the mod did get feedback. If it's a mod developed in secret, then its release will show if it's liked or not liked by most of its players.
I was very vague when I said that when forming opinion, I ignore the attitude (or viewpoint) that says that mods must be done ONLY for own entertaintainment. One of the most important things (in fact, the most important) is that we enjoy what we do. This is true to our job, and to hobbies as well such as modding. What I wanted to express actually is that a modder shouldn't (i.e. it would be unwise to do so) release a mod if the feedback of most players is entirely against the author's concept; the author should change on the mod based on the player suggestions/feedback, but of course only on certain parts, and only if it doesn't violate the main concept.
To sum up, what I wanted to say is: extremes are never good. Player feedback can be often misleading, but it is also not good if the author closes his/her eyes and ears, and doesn't consider the suggestions of players.


SirKill is right in his last post. And I also consider the discussion about rape closed from my side. I would like to finish my post with three quotes:

As I said before, the main point is to know that "being evil" doesn't entail "being dirty and cheap". The two are not the same.

Killing an innocent person to gain a goal is an evil task, but raping her is a dirty and cheap behavior. Once one learns the difference, all other related distinctions will become clear. Adding dirty contents to the game cannot be justified by referring to already existent evil contents such as killings. Adding such things to the game through a module will only cheapen and reduce the quality of the game. "Evil" and "dirty" are not synonymous.

I think stealing, hurting, and killing innocents, looting tombs and betraying people who trust is enough for <CHARNAME> to act out her feelings of ill mindedness without the need of diving into the deep, dark area of sexual harassement. The latter is much too real to be included into this fantasy game, thank you very much.

To be honest I don't think you could do rape in BG even if you wanted to.

Rape as a dialog option would be laughable.

I would agree that making a mod that included rape would be a waste of time.

[Sorrow]

Living in constant paranoia (it's the only way that PC could survive) and in constant danger is a traumatic experience IMO.

Perhaps you would live in constant paranoia in that situation, I would not. Regardless, I do not think that <charname> could survive through all those events, carry out a romance, pursue a powerful mage, confront other children of bhaal, defeat them and then battle to fulfill his destiny if he spent every minute being paranoid about being in danger. <charname> seeks out danger at every opportunity throughout the storyline of BG! If we were to follow your example <charname> should lock themselves in a room in the Copper Coronet at the beginning of the game and refuse to come out!

Constant paranoia - not trusting anyone outside the team, being ready to defend against attack in most of time, casting stone-skin and other protection spells that have a long duration etc.
And since PC seeks out danger at every opportunity, she/he has to have a lot higher level of agression than a normal person.
Try playing through BG2 without cheating (reloading after something goes wrong, including PC's death) and we may be able to talk about what PC feels.

Nonetheless Rabain may have a point there that the real personality and desires of villains might be much more complex than just a few bandits' who kill/rape/loot/humiliate/etc. people just for pure fun.

Yes, but becoming an embodiment of evil may also be a good motivation.
I've read Avatar series and avatar of Bhaal was mostly murdering people in most gruesome ways possible.
A character tainted by the essence of Bhaal may want to attain power by emulating him, just like Sarevok was trying to do.

I think that in becoming an embodiment of evil there's is beauty, pleasure and certain simplicity... peace.
Evil deeds stop being tools and become an art.
For example character may strive to murder someone in most cruel way or rape someone in most exquisite and degrading way, seeking perverted aesthetics and evil glamour.
Goddess, it's so simple and beautiful at the same time ...


Those who treat evil as a tool are fools, weak heretics that are misguided tools themselves.
They are nothing, but a pitifull parody of good heroes and a pathetic parody of evil.
I feel strong hate and disgust towards those who kill and hurt people just to reach their pathetic goal...
As for people who hurt people just for pure pleasure of doing so, for pure joy of being evil I can't help but admire.
But of course they need to be exterminated anyway, because they don't respect the fact that most people don't want to be hurt (i.e. murdered, raped, mugged etc..).
And before they are exterminated they should be hurt ...*purrrrs*

There 254 distinguished shades of gray between black and white I suspect that there are at least that many between good and evil.

Sadistic chaotic good elven f/m/t for example ?

You are right here. Also, when I said that a mod shouldn't be released if the players' needs are entirely different than authors concept, I assumed that the mod did get feedback. If it's a mod developed in secret, then its release will show if it's liked or not liked by most of its players.
I was very vague when I said that when forming opinion, I ignore the attitude (or viewpoint) that says that mods must be done ONLY for own entertaintainment. One of the most important things (in fact, the most important) is that we enjoy what we do. This is true to our job, and to hobbies as well such as modding. What I wanted to express actually is that a modder shouldn't (i.e. it would be unwise to do so) release a mod if the feedback of most players is entirely against the author's concept; the author should change on the mod based on the player suggestions/feedback, but of course only on certain parts, and only if it doesn't violate the main concept.
To sum up, what I wanted to say is: extremes are never good. Player feedback can be often misleading, but it is also not good if the author closes his/her eyes and ears, and doesn't consider the suggestions of players.

I did get a good feedback from at least four players that had seen said dialogues and at least two of them were relatively sane persons without sadistic tendencies, who just wanted a hardcore, realistic low fantasy instead of an infantile fairytale.
I 'm not making a mod for all players, especially not for a players who have something against doing unheroic things, like executing defenceless civilians for sheltering guerillas/bandits.
In my country low fantasy and realism is a lot more popular than fairytales.

[Domi]

Gods be good, Sorrow, you just have to get A Song Of Ice and Fire; you are likely to enjoy it greatly. Just don't get a translated version. The translations are

[Sorrow]

I will get them as soon as I'll pay penalty for not returning books in time to my local fantasy library (i.e. not very soon).

Sadly I will not be able to get an orginal version, so I will have to read the translated one .
I hope that polish translation isn't very bad.