Yes, I agree with you. But when you try to sleep sometimes it requires 4-5 tries to finally not be interrupted.

If that is the case, then I agree that it's rather lame.

However, roleplaying-wise there is enough justification to go to low reputation. Also, just because one person performs these actions does not mean that every other player will do the same. Especially in the light that you are planning to add quests for evil (thus low reputation) parties, should you think carefully about these battles. I'm certain that you've already done so but have not made it clear to the public just yet.


I think a good solution would be as following.
- Once the reputation drops, the amount of parties becomes more frequent and more difficult.
- Then, when the difficulty has escalated and a very tough party of adventurers has been destroyed, you decrease the chance and difficulty again, such that only muggers and low level amnish guards or paladins spawn that carry very few droppable items and give low XP (but are still a decent challenge such as the Suna Seni encounter).

Related to the subject... the Cowled Wizards stop spawning, do you ever really know why that happens? Perhaps you could create a simple messenger who brings a letter saying that the Cowled Wizards have humbly decided to leave the party in peace and that the party has permission to use magic inside of town. That would be a nice and clear closure of that sequence if none is present already.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jul 29 2008, 10:16 AM

Honestly, I don't think that such a bug exists at all. saros has a corrupted game due to installing incompatible mods with IA and doing lots of unusual things during his game. Bug reports can only be taken seriously if reported by a player who has followed the installation instructions accurately and we have not received any such reports about Cowled wizards in the past.

For now (for v6), I have just blocked the exploits (xp, items, gold, etc) which can be gained from fighting amnish guards and similar battles resulting from low reputation. When I decide to practically add new content for evil protagonists, I will think about these battles again and may improve them. However, as I've said before, adding new content for evil parties doesn't have a high priority for me.

Moreover (and this is very important), from my point of view, even an evil party should play without cheesy methods. Being evil doesn't justify and shouldn't mean being cheap. Hence, even when I add new content for evil parties, I will still set some particular requirements for some of those quests. Even an evil character should behave like a man rather than a jerk and should play fair (if he wants to see some of those new quests).

Finding the right requiements is admittedly a bit difficult for evil parties, of course. Some players have a different understanding (than mine) of how to role-play an evil character. They believe that being evil is equivalent to being a disgusting dirty character for whom every kind of action is justified; while I believe that there are different types of evil characters, some of whom are still bound with honor, behave fair during battles, do not attack the enemy when he is unprepared and unguarded, do not attack the innocent and the commoner, when they give a word they don't break it and don't betray, etc etc... My new evil quests will be designed only for this latter type of evil characters, not for the cheap type who think that since they are evil every action is justified for them.

I think you missed here the player and the character. Character is living in the game world and he is not aware of bugs or exploits. When a bug is used to create XP then it is the player who insist it and not the character. Character and his alignment and background (family, history, class, ...) should determine how the player should behave.


I agree that the AD&D standard description and idea about evil is too simplified. An evil is not someone who go and kill everybody he/she sees. But I think your description is about a paladin and not about an evil character. Yes, it could happen that such an evil character has such a behavior but it is mostly true only for lawful evil characters (based on the very simple AD&D definition).

I think you know history: in a lot of cases the surrenders were killed after the battles, they killed a lot of children and women during wars (or even without wars). In lot of battles they attacked from a hiden post and not only evil people but normal "good" people. Did you here about the guy (called Pandi) in Belgium who killed 50 or something people in at home? Or the director and his people who killed a lot of children in the Grand Canaries 20 years ago? News are full with such a people. So, this type of behavior exist also. I think the most important think that people often miss when playing with evil characters is that they miss the target of the character. Every character has a target (or more targets) and the differnece is usually not the target itself but the way how they reach it. A "good" characters try to not cause unnecessery suffering and pain, for an evil character such a thing does not matter.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Jul 29 2008, 12:32 PM

I was also primarily talking about the character (not the player). An evil character may be cheap and kill amnish guards to loot them. This was what I was referring to.

Of course, how the character behaves in the game is directly related to how the player thinks (it's the player who is roleplaying the character after all), but I was not primarily talking about the character.

No, as I said, there are different types of evil characters. One doesn't need to be paladin to avoid hurting innocent people.

The difference between a "good character" and the "bound with honor evil character" lies in their long-term goals about how the world should be governed (this is the first and main difference, and see two paragraphs below this one for the second difference).

As I said, there is also another type of evil characters, to whom I referred as "cheap" ones; they are those who may kill a child for a gold piece he has. My point was that my new quests will be designed for that other type of evil characters not for this cheap type.



Yes, now you are getting close to understanding what I was trying to say. An honorable evil character has a long-term goal. If killing someone can help reaching that goal, he will kill him. A good character won't do this. For a good character goals don't justify means (this is the second difference, but it's secondary to the one I mentioned as the first and main difference in two paragraphs above this one, because I can even imagine honorable evil characters who may hesitate to use all types of means to reach their goals).

A cheap evil character, on the other hand, may kill that person for a few coins. This is different than what the "honorable" evil character will do for his long-term goal and even then he will probably invite his victim to a one-on-one fair duel rather than pouring poison into the victim's meal or just killing him in sleep.

My main point is that one can be evil without being cheap.

Hmm, ok, I understand it now. I was a bit confused because you usually use the cheap word for cheating. I know the meaning of this word but I use from you only this way. And I think that the way you use it (I mean when speaking about evil characters) is wrong.

I think the "cheap" characters have a goal as well (hmm, I used target in my prev. post, but goal is the right word). Just think about this example: a guy who has to take care of his mom, wife and 3 children; to do it he kills people during night and take their money. He is definitely evil, he is cheap (in the way you use it) but he has a goal and even this goal is really honest and nice. The way how he reached his goal is evil. I think in real life such situations are much more common then the "evil goal" situation. The judgment of a goal really depends on where do you see it from. It can be evil from one point of view and can be non-evil from other point of view. Usually people have no evil goal but very often they use evil practices and evil think to archive their - normal - goal.

But this is philosophy of the game (and life) and should not be discussed here. This is not a bug. Would you like to create a topic for it and copy the last couple of posts to there? Name should be a bit general - like "Discussion about game philosophy" or similar - because I have other topics in my mind that I would like to discuss and they are related to IA (but could be fit to that new topic).

This post has been edited by Vuki: Jul 29 2008, 01:33 PM

Yes, the term is somewhat ambiguous here, but its two meanings are interrelated:

A cheap player (the one who cheats) usually roleplays a cheap character (the one who for example, kills amnish guards for coin or attacks innocent and unprepared people or breaks promises, etc,etc...).

In its first instance, it is cheap1 which refers to a cheating player; in its second occurrence, it is cheap2 which refers to a character with low prestige and behavior inside the game.

Be careful not to confuse the game's world with real world. We are talking about an adventurer (protagonist). Think on the example of whether you will invite your opponent to a one-on-one duel or will kill him in sleep to see what I mean by honorable and cheap approaches.



Just please don't start a discussion about philosophy of ethics here. We are talking about the game's world in which such controversies don't exist as they do in our world.



I prefer to keep all posts here for now as they are all somewhat related to saros's posts and playing style. They don't do any harm.

If you want to discuss other issues feel free to start a new topic; I just hope they won't be related to real life, moral relativism and such things .

Ok, I will not do it.

I think here your way of thinking is too black and white, instead of let's take an example from the game. You - using your thief or monk or mage - first scout the enemy area and then you move your spellcasters close to it and attack the enemy that cannot see you with magic from distance. Is this a cheap1 method (cheeting or cheesy)? Is this tactical? Is this the evil way? Can "good" characters do it? It all depends on the situation. For example if you are in the sewer area and you attack the party there using this way then I can call it cheating or at least cheesy method. If you do it in the beholder cave with beholders then it is not cheesy. First method is also evil because you attack someone without a reason, second case is not even evil. If you are with an evil party and you make the decision to kill the Silver Dragon in Underdark and attack it using this tactics then it is evil but not cheesy.

This was a report from my old game. It has nothing to do with the present. I just thought that it is good to be noted, because if unfixed, it may still occur in version six of IA.

Otherwise, I've installed just the components of the Ease of Use mod which you use in your own game. With one exception, and I've already uninstalled it: the Shapeshifter rebalancing. Otherwise, my install is only: SoA, ToB, official patch, IA and several EoU components which I see that you also use in your game.

Ops I just saw that I use multiclass grandmastery and you don't have it in your install. Since this is my major fault I will start anew my install and afterwards, in my new game, will report any new cheesy exploits.

@Sikret: BTW, I'm NOT wasting your time here. I've just pointed out at least three cheesy methods of xp&gold gain, which are not fixed. I may find more such things which went unnoticed so far. I'm working for the good of the IA mod, since this way the exploits will be blocked in the next version. And consider the fact that I may have played the mod with this knowledge kept to myself.
Each of us can play however he/she wants. I will immediately implement my WeiDU file contents here after the reinstall and you may tell me if it is normal already. For instance, you consider xp&gold gain exploits cheating. Or playing solo inappropriate. I, however, consider multiple reloadings of one and the same battle cheating, until luck helps the party and they win. Also, I think that this mod may prove much more challenging to a solo character than to a party.

This post has been edited by saros: Jul 29 2008, 03:03 PM

Casting spells from distance (offscreen) on enemies who can't see you is always a cheap and cheesy method regardless of the situation; but even this, is not the main point I was trying to say.

I was trying to explain for which type of evil characters I will add new quests to the mod. We don't need to argue about titles.

The fact that you don't agree with me is a different matter. I just hope you got that which type of evil characters with which playing style can wait for new content and quests in the mod's future versions.

If no, we seem to be failing in constructively converse with each other. If yes, then it's good. In either case, let's end the discussion at this point.

According to your own report in Bioware's forum, even in your new game, you are using xp exploits. You character has not completed any of the game's major quests and you already have HLAs with your multi-class character which means you have too much xp to be normally possible at that stage of the game.



You have items from the incompatible "Item Upgrade" mod. Daystar +4 is an item from that mod. The vanilla sword has +2 enchantment (while your version of the sword has +4 enchantment because according to your own report, you can hit Kangaxx with it).

Copy and paste the content of your WeiDu.log file and we will see which mods you have installed.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jul 29 2008, 02:58 PM

Ok, postpone it for the moment. I will create later a topic for such things and other issues.


No, I have no problem with this. I just would like to show you that this type of evil behavior is very rear in real world. It is also very rear in most not so simple fantasy world, one example is DragonLance in the later series (in early books to be good and evil is very simple question). Do you know David Gemmel? I like his books very much and in his novels you can see really good examples. But this is too general, so I agree with you: we should stop it.

This is going to be repetitive and tedious. As I told you, reporting exploits is fine, using them isn't!

If you want those exploits for be fixed and blocked why you keep using them (even in your new game)?

You reported the exploits and I said that I will block them, then I asked you not to use them in your game; you didn't listen; you are still using them but again lie to me here and say that it was from an old game, while you are still using them even in your new game.

You have Item Upgrade mod (or some other incompatible mod which has increased Daystar's enchantment to +4) installed and yet you keep repeating that you don't have any other mods except those I have in my game.

Yes, you could play the game for yourself without telling me anything. That would have been much better than coming here to tell me lies at every stage.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jul 29 2008, 03:21 PM

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #0 // BG2 Fixpack - Core Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #1 // BG2 Fixpack - Game Text Update
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #2 // Super Happy Fun Lucky Modder Pack
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #3 // BETA Core Fixes (please check the readme!)
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #100 // Party Gets XP for Sending Keldorn to Reconcile With Maria
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #101 // Improved Spell Animations
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #102 // Cromwell's Forging Actually Takes a Day
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #103 // Mixed-Use Dagger Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #104 // Ghreyfain's Holy Symbol Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #106 // Giants Receive Penalties When Attacking Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #107 // Remove Dual-Classing Restriction from Archers and Stalkers
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #108 // Remove Second Attribute Bonus for Evil Path in Wrath Hell Trial
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #109 // Corrected Summoned Demon Behavior
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #110 // Additional Script Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #111 // Bard Song Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #112 // Wizard Slayers Cause Miscast Magic on Ranged Attacks
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #113 // Additional Alignment Fixes
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #114 // Change Free Action to Protect Against Stun
~SETUP-IMPROVEDANVIL.TP2~ #0 #0 // Improved Anvil for SOA & TOBHere I wasn't going to discuss any details about
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #0 // Infinite Weapon, Potion and Ring/Amulet Stacking
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #3 // True Grand Mastery (extra half-attack, etc.) (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #4 // Shut Up "You Must Gather Your Party Before Venturing Forth"
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #5 // Faster Chapter 1&2 Cut-Scenes and Dreams (Karzak, Blucher) (SEE WARNINGS)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #6 // Wear Magical Armor AND Magic Rings (etc.)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #9 // Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, and Arcane, Divine Spell Progression (Blucher)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #10 // XP Cap Remover
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #14 // Multiple Strongholds (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #15 // Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #21 // Romance: Bug Fixes (required for later components).
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #25 // Happy: NPCs won't fight with each other or leave the group.

I certainly want to play the game according to the IA 5.0 rules and installation. By this I certainly do *not* mean that I will not use xp exploits since they are currently present in the mod, and I am in no violation by the mod's rules by doing so. But I am not going to describe any part of such a game in which I used xp exploits on *this* forum. Here I will report only exploits like the ones I already have. @ Sikret: 1. I would most certainly appreciate if you tell me if my installation is correct this time. 2. If you don't want me to report such exploits as I already have, then by all means, it's your forum, and I will not. BTW, if you want to check this bug I've mentioned(Cowled wizards do not persecute the party after lowering reputation&killing several amnish groups, say 10) then you may want to try it and see for yourself.

BTW, I very much like the idea of only several Amnish guard patrols appearing for low reputation, with increasing difficulty.

So, I was right that you didn't read the mod's readme file accurately.

Your installation is wrong and your game is corrupted:

1- BG2 fixpack is incompatible with IA as you could read in IA's readme file (which you didn't). This is probably responsible for your +4 Daystar and many other bugs you will see in your game.

2- IA should be installed as your last mod. You have installed EoU after IA which is wrong.

You need to uninstall all of your mods. Install according to IA's installation document:

1- BG2
2- TOB
3- TOB official patch
4- Baldurdash Fixpack version 1.12
5- Recommnded components of Ease-of-Use
6- IA

You will have to start a new game after amending your installation.

And yes, as long as you think that you are not doing anything wrong by using xp exploits, I don't want to see any other posts from you.

I've read the readme. But I thought that BG2 fixpack was actually the Baldurdash fixpack, which was my major mistake in my install, it seems.




OK. Just if you may check my latest install and see if it is right this time?

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #0 // Infinite Weapon, Potion and Ring/Amulet Stacking
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #3 // True Grand Mastery (extra half-attack, etc.) (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #4 // Shut Up "You Must Gather Your Party Before Venturing Forth"
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #5 // Faster Chapter 1&2 Cut-Scenes and Dreams (Karzak, Blucher) (SEE WARNINGS)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #6 // Wear Magical Armor AND Magic Rings (etc.)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #9 // Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, and Arcane, Divine Spell Progression (Blucher)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #10 // XP Cap Remover
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #14 // Multiple Strongholds (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #15 // Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #21 // Romance: Bug Fixes (required for later components).
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #25 // Happy: NPCs won't fight with each other or leave the group.
~SETUP-IMPROVEDANVIL.TP2~ #0 #0 // Improved Anvil for SOA & TOB

Sikret, is my installation ok? It seems really short to me. Did I install everything that is needed?

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // Component Name
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #3 // True Grand Mastery (extra half-attack, etc.) (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #4 // Shut Up "You Must Gather Your Party Before Venturing Forth"
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #5 // Faster Chapter 1&2 Cut-Scenes and Dreams (Karzak, Blucher) (SEE WARNINGS)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #6 // Wear Magical Armor AND Magic Rings (etc.)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #9 // Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, and Arcane, Divine Spell Progression (Blucher)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #10 // XP Cap Remover
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #14 // Multiple Strongholds (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #15 // Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash)
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #18 // Imoen ToB Dialogue Fix
~SETUP-EASE.TP2~ #0 #21 // Romance: Bug Fixes (required for later components).
~SETUP-IMPROVEDANVIL.TP2~ #0 #0 // Improved Anvil for SOA & TOB

@Vuki

Your installation is perfect.

@saros

This time your installation is almost fine. You have still installed the "Happy NPC" component of EoU which is not in the list of recommended components; it was better not to install it, but it's not a big problem. I will add it to the list of "don't install components" in the readme of the mod's next version.

Please, don't send any other post in these forums.

@Raven & Baronius

Please delete any future post from saros if I happen to be offline when he sends it.

Cheaters can send their posts to the other forum I have given the link. However, other players and readers should be aware that things they will read in the other forum (specially in posts of people like saros) will contain lots of false and misleading statements. When someone is a cheater, there is no reason to believe that other things he will say or write will be true (in saros's case, we already know that he has a strong tendency to tell lies).

Just to make sure it's clear for everyone, Sikret referred to the Improved Anvil forum in the quoted request. Our Gaming Forums (in this particular case, our BG2 SoA/ToB general gaming forum) are still open for discussion of cheesy or partially unsupported games (between reasonable limits). Of course, this doesn't mean we encourage cheesy playing.