We had a discussion about the Prefix List with SConrad. He assured BWL that their intention isn't to boycott the Prefix Reservations list, and he offered a suggestion.

There are several registered prefixes which have never used to release any Infinity Engine game mod. Many prefix owners haven't informed the community that they have a mod under development. On the other hand, sometimes mod developers return to the community to release a mod for the public, which development they started earlier with a registered prefix.

It also seems to be true that many mod developers like to choose prefixes that they favour for some reason (monogram, initial mod name abbreviation etc.). I'm not really convinced that this should be an important aspect (as the problem is purely technical: identifiers, filenames shouldn't collide), but I have no right to decide this (neither the BWL Council or any department of BWL). If you believe it's an important aspect (or the opposite), please do post your opinion in this topic.

The Prefix List originally supported prefixes of any length, but since this easily leads to collisions, BWL decided to fix the length of 2 characters. I don't think this needs to be changed (especially because there are already very many two-character long registrations). On the other hand, due to the high number of prefixes (which include many apparently abandoned registrations), it's not easy for those to choose a prefix who want some typical, favoured prefix (monogram etc.) -- many variations are already registered by others, and often abandoned. To improve the situation, the best way would be to estabilish a new policy for registrations.

The new policy would assign a time limit for each registered prefix, and if no mod is released with that prefix for the specified time limit, the prefix would be moved to second list, and its place would be freed on the primary list. This means that it becomes available again for others' to register, and if someone registers it, the original owner would lose it. If no one registers it before the original owner returns, the original owner can re-register it (i.e. extend the time limit, but the added time limit would be much shorter than the base limit for prefixes). The number of such time limit extensions for prefixes which aren't used in any released mod could also be limited (for example, after all extensions are used, the prefix would remain in the second list and could be registered by anyone, and if it's not registered by anyone else and the original owner would release a mod with it, then it would return to its original owner; but these details require more examination than what I've done here).

If a mod is released with a registered prefix, it would be reasonable to allow the prefix to be valid for an unlimited time. On the other hand, it's important to deal with the situation when a single project with a prefix is released, the author leaves the community and there are no releases for years -- while the prefix is taken. In such an extreme case, I think it's enough to free the prefix for the public again, and simply designate the original (and old) project as incompatible with those mods who use the re-registered prefix (but "designation" probably wouldn't be the duty of the Prefix List maintainers).

I also have an idea about a restriction for registrations: a mod developer who registers a prefix will have to specify an Infinity Engine game where he or she intends to use the prefix. However, I am not convinced that this is necessary -- it might make things more complex, while wouldn't offer much additional advantage (most mods are for BG2 and BGTutu/EasyTutu anyway).

Assuming that the majority will support the initiative detailed above, it's important to emphasize that this requires technical changes on the management system of the Community Prefix List. As far as the implemenation changes are concerned, neither the Department of Graphics nor the Department of Mod Development of BWL has any free capacity (i.e. member who would volunteer) to my knowledge. I also don't have the time, however, someone will have to do it, if the initiative gets approved and accepted in this topic. If it's accepted, I will try to contact drake127, the developer of the current system, and ask him to extend the system. I suspect that the database scheme will have to be modified too.

Please note that the above descriptions (about new policies) are just based on quick ideas I had while writing this post, so feel free to suggest different or modified versions for them.

If you believe you have anything constructive to say (or you have any questions), please don't hesitate to send a reply to this topic!

I said to SConrad that this matter requires public discussion, and (more importantly) public approval. BWL has always taken the fact into consideration that not all mod developers (who may release public mods) are active in the message boards of the community, so the approving feedback of active forum members should not be considered as authoritative in all cases, but in this case, I think it is. The Community Prefix List has been estabilished and maintained by active IE mod developers (active in the respect of community forums as well), so making a common decision here is justified in my opinion.

Approval is given

Prefixes ensure compatibility. I am pro-protected prefixes - if people start releasing mods with my prefix, and we have multiple O#Dream variables and O#(areanames), it'll be a nightmare. Even if I had only one mod released with O#, and not eight, I'd still be against that.

Not to mention that there are project prefixes - RE prefix, that is being used by all RE authors; X# prefix for BG1 NPC material. These are even more important, especially given how many people play, for example, BG1 NPC or Banter Pack. Screw these mods, and thousands of players are in trouble.

If a modder wishes to create conflicts, and uses someone else's prefix intentionally, I'd say "they are in the wrong". If they were intentionally killing my mods(using my prefixes, causing, eventually, more bug reports for me, less time for writing), I'd be - what is the word - Stalingrad?

Yes, if a prefix's been registered two years ago, and no mod's been released, it is a Bad Thing. But combinatorics tells us that there are many, many prefixes available, and it's possible to find many new ones still.

No, it is a Bad Idea to say "hey, Anne only released one mod, her nice prefix A! should be free", because Anne may be working on her own mod far away from BWL. She will read this topic two years later, after she finds out there is a conflict, and, again, somebody will catch hell.

"Please, use your own prefix. It will ensure that your variables, area names, tags and filenames are unique, and there is no conflict with other mods by other mod makers. It is important both to maintain technical compatibility and goodwill in the community" would be my reply.

(Bottom line: no changes.)

I agree with Kulyok wholeheartedly. Changing prefixes and making them available (specially for released mods!) goes directly against what I believe the Community Prefix List is supposed to be about.

Having said that, however, I wouldn't mind relinquishing my own registered prefix if too much time elapses before I release any mod (if ever).

I sincerely believe the "single project" here refers to small mods, not large or medium projects.

I think such probability is very small, especially if she develops something larger than NPC mod. And even if she does develop NPC secretly and someone else wants to use her prefix for their own NPC then what shall community get? Two incompatible NPC mods at most. The I find the chance that both authors will be greatly pissed off because of it to be even smaller.

The point of SConrad (and the central point of my initial post) is about prefixes which never get used.


I really shouldn't have written "important", because it's just a rare situation. I meant a very extreme situation, when someone makes an item mod with 2 items and releases it, and then doesn't release anything for 3 years, and some large project requires that prefix (though refactoring is always possible, so it's also not an issue, but I have seen mod developers insisting on their originally used prefix just because they were afraid that renaming identifiers would break the mod).

My opinion is still the same: there is really no need to remove old prefixes as long as we have several hundreds of free variations for two-character long prefixes. However, since SConrad thinks that mod developers might want to use prefixes which they favour for some reason, BWL decided to start this public discussion about it -- IE mod development is not about what I see to be (technically) reasonable, but rather what the mod developers feel to be suitable for them.

On side note, I emphasize it again that this isn't exclusively a poll, or a place to decide whether my suggestions in the initial post should be accepted or not. Those are ideas. If you can think of better ideas and solutions, don't hesitate to share them.

The total number of registred prefixes is barely 1/4 of the maximum (if we take a prefix as two characters), perhaps even less.

I think the potential benefit (someone can pick a prefix which they think is marginally more cool than they might otherwise pick) doesn't warrent the time or effort of making the changes to the prefix list or of tracking which prefixes have released sizable mods released against them. Also, as modding is generally a hobby, enforcing a time-limit on someone to release something 'sizable' is not a good thing.

I knew I would forgot to include this in the initial post. The time limit after a prefix has been registered could also be extended before it expires (before the prefix gets moved to the second list). The prefix owner would just say: "I'm still working on the mod". For example, if he or she does this every half an year, the registration is extended (and there would be no upper limit for the number of such extensions).

I think SConrad's point was practically about prefixes that get registered and never seem to be used anywhere. My proposals/ideas in the initial post and here were related to that, but now that I see that the idea isn't that popular (and it's not only me who doesn't favour it), I will let others do the brainstorming. Of course, it's possible I misinterpreted what he suggested, so hopefully he will also come here to tell what he meant or how he imagines it.

It is mentionned in the first post. Regardless, I think it's an unnecessary extra hurdle for modders.

Why not base this on work being done rather than on simply stating "yes, I'm really working on RTW" once every six months? For example:
After two months from the registration, the registree must provide proof of actual work being done (for example a pre-alpha of their mod) or request an additional two-months deadline. If (in the total four months span) a convincing pre-alpha* is provided then the registration is permanent, otherwise it's re-added to the global pool. If your prefix was ever removed (due to not having shown proof as before), you must provide a convincing pre-alpha before you can register a new one.

*: The exact definition of convincing is open to debate; giving an NPC as an example, a 'convincing' pre-alpha will have a non-trivial amount of content in place. However, a NPC having only its basic joining&leaving dialogues is not convincing. Unfortunately, this places an extra burden on the shoulders of the list maintainers.

What kind of time frame are you talking about before you take away a mod developers rights to a certain prefix? A couple months, a year or two? Some mods can take years to work on before it ever becomes public. This is specially true if they want to release a mod that is as bug free and compatible with as many other mods as possible. By forcing a time frame to release a mod, you will be potentially causing more bugs and problems to be introduced. This is something that you wouldn't like, no one would like it in fact.

If you were to proceed with this idea, you will need to make some things clearer. You will also need to allow for the events of real life getting in the way of making a mod. One person might make a small mod relatively quickly, but a group may take years to do a large scale mod.

Here is a suggestion which may work within your ideas.

1) All EXISTING prefixes remain assigned and cannot be revoked. No matter whether there has been a mod produced or not.
2) All NEW prefixes can be given a two year reservation lease.
3) Mod developer must return any time before or within one month after their two year reservation lease has expired to give a status update, mod release announcement, or some other proof that they are still working on the mod.
4) If public release of mod has been announced their leased prefix becomes permanent.
5) If their mod is in any other status, they get two more years where steps 3 and 4 will apply.
6) Should the mod developer fail to report after one month of either the two year renewal points, the prefix will be given a pending status for one year.
7) After that one year, the prefix will be released back into the pool of available prefixes.
8) During pending status, the original mod developer can ask to retain the prefix registration. However they must provide proof of the mod they are working on. i.e. zip package of current mod files; links to current forum posts where they have asked, received help, and tried it out on their work; any other source of proof so deemed reliable by the maintainers of the prefix list.
9) Should the mod developer have retrieved their prefix from within the one year pending status, they will follow the same procedures as above except that their leases will be limited to one year and a pending status of six months.
10) One month prior to any renewal the maintainers will send an e-mail to the address on file reminding the mod developer of their upcoming prefix renewal date.

Basically under the above suggestion:
Anytime modder reports a release of their mod the prefix becomes permanent.
As long as modder reports progress they will retain their prefix.
If modder fails to report within a timely period but reports, the will retain their prefix but for shorter time periods.
If modder fails to report at all they will eventually loose their rights to the prefix.

Shortest time to loss of prefix
(2 years + fail to report) + (1 year pending + failure to report) = 3 years

Shortest time to permanent prefix status
Mod is announced < 2years from prefix reservation


But in the long run, I'm siding with Kulyok. We reserved the prefixes so that there would be no overwriting of custom files. Who knows, someone may have made a personal mod and wanted to reserve the prefix so that public mods wouldn't overwrite their custom files....

This could work as a mild alternative(if you really, really insist):

0) All prefixes that are now in the list retain their OK status, and receive protected status. If modder Agony has prefix AY, it belongs to modder Agony. Forever.

(If that's too much, okay, let the protected thing be for "prefixes with released mods only". Just like SConrad's prefix EX is protected now, by the way.)

But from, say, September 20, 2008, the following happens:

1) Modder Gen arrives and says: "Hello! I'd like to register prefix GN!"
2) "Sure," moderator says, and adds "GN - Gen, 20/09/2008 - OK" to the prefix list. "But, please, when you release your mod, come here and tell us, okay?" - "Okay," Gen says.

Then:

3a) Gen completes a mod, and writes to the same thread: "Hello! I finished Gen Quest&Romance mod! Here's the mod's webpage!"
4a) "Great," moderator says, takes a look at the mod's webpage, and corrects her prefix data to "GN - Gen, 20/09/2008 - OK, protected".

OR the following happens:

3b) A year(two years?) pass, Gen(and also Vic, Roy, Beth) hasn't completed a mod, hasn't posted in the prefix thread, and nobody's heard about her ever since.
4b) Moderator takes a monthly check at the prefix list, and PMs Gen, Vic, Roy and Beth: "Hello, how are you! How are your mods? You know, they've been on the list for a long time, and we haven't seen any progress. We may have to delete your prefix!"
5b) Roy replies: "Sorry, I completed a mod! Here it is!" - and Roy's prefix becomes protected. Vic replies: "Sorry! I've done some progress, here is my forum and previews, I need more time!" - and Vic's prefix remains with "OK".
6b) During the next monthly check, moderator notices that Beth and Gen still haven't replied. He sighs, deletes their prefixes, and places them in a pinned thread "expired prefixes, please note".

And, hey, plainab was faster.

Seems like I've noticed only bold part of the quote
I understand the idea as keeping every registered prefix, but "abandoned" ones should either have some mark indicating they aren't being used, or be moved to the secondary list of abandoned prefixes.

And one more thing - there are already some collisions in the current list. So, perhaps indeed just to add "unused" column and be fine with it?

Personally, I think that the way things are done are just fine. Having a prefix because of some specific code or whatever a modder may want to make something slightly more convenient (or conform with their name, the mod name, etc.) isn't a good enough reason to knock already-registered prefixes off the list. If 75% of them are still available, there's no need to change anything.

That said, if it must be done, I say minimum of a year and a half to two years for a time limit. To give any less would be unreasonable.

You don't need to release a mod IMHO, it's better to prove you're working on the short term rather than vaguely promising to completing long term.

What Kulyok said.

The Bigg: A working Alpha after two month? Sorry, but I think this is dream world. Of course not everyone has to take as long as me to finish an NPC mod, but to make a working Alpha after two months a requirement to keep the prefix the modder used is unrealistic. And no, I don't think "you can change the prefix of the mod" is a solution. I did that for a mod only recently, it's a pain. Stating you are still interested in the prefix should be enough. I don't think the community should put so much unnecessary pressure on some modders. It's a game and a hobby we are talking about.
I favour Kulyok's approach, because it not only fixes the already registered prefixes, but also includes the contacting of the modder by the prefix list moderator before removing / deleting it. I don't know about you, but with all the RL going on, I am sure I would forget about a date I have to keep after a year in a hobby gaming project.

I too agree with Kulyok and plainab's statements.

IMO, that might be the best way to handle the prefix reservation issues.

Keeping everything AS IS would result in the least inconvenience for the person who manages the prefix lists AND for modders.

I don't feel very strongly about this, but here's an argument for the status quo:

In practice modders can make their own decisions about whether to risk registering a prefix that's already registered. Why don't you say that if someone wants to register an already-registered prefix you don't let them if (a) the prefix was registered fairly recently (six months ago? a year?) or (b) there's a mod already out that uses the prefix. But if neither of these hold, you can remind the modder that the prefix is already taken, but still let them register (and mark as a conflict) if they insist.

In fact, I'm roughly in this situation. I wrote SCS without actually being aware of the prefix list, and used DW (DW#, actually - "DW" is actually used by a lot of vanilla-game files, so the extra symbol seemed worth it) without knowing that someone else had registered it. When I got round to checking the list, I thought about changing mine but decided it wasn't worth it for a prefix that didn't actually seem to have anything registered under it - and the list admins were kind enough to allow it.

The advantage of doing it that way is that you devolve the risk assessment to the modders themselves, without potentially giving yourselves a lot of work and hassle.

EDIT: if the previous version had a random smiley, that's because it was supposed to be (b). Forum software is hell on people like me who use structured lists lots!

I think a lot of people are taking this the wrong way. Let me restate my views on the issue:

I think mod prefixes is a great idea, don't get me wrong. But the argument that I should avoid using MPI for my mod because of the reason that it's registered to Wolfmoon (Neil) seems a bit... weak. I don't even recognize a fraction of the people in the list as modders with released mods, and a vast majority of them won't be coming back to finish the mod idea they had several years ago and registered a prefix for. As a result of this, most "attractive" prefixes are already "taken," and I think it's a shame that modders are discouraged from using the prefix they want because somebody who never will release a mod already has registered it. Even if it's not explicitly said that they can't register it as a conflict, they will nevertheless be reluctant to do so anyway.

In the past it has been suggested that modders who are inactive for two years in the community is removed from the list, but that's a bad idea too: I haven't seen japeth, Ajoc or BobTokyo in the past 24 months, but it would be a bad idea to remove their prefixes as they have mods released. And if I really, really want to use EV for my mod, I can't--because one "DragonJewel13" registered it in August last year, but hasn't been seen or heard from ever since. My money's on that he'll never release a mod.

Another idea was to add a modder's prefix after they have released at least one mod, since it's only after a mod has been released that incompatibility errors appear. However, this does not take into account the possibility of two modders simultaneously work on separate mod with the same prefix, not knowing that somebody else is using it.

Therefore, my suggestion is that some sort of timeframe is established for how long a modder have the right to reserve a prefix. If they haven't released a mod within six months after registering the prefix, they lose the registration. At this point, however, they may re-register the prefix if they are working on a large project--this would also mean that the modder is still active in the community. As soon as a mod is released by the modder, the prefix stays without any time limit.

This would also give incentives to modders to release smaller mods, while they're learning how to. Even if they only release a minor kit, spell or item mod, a side-effect would be that their prefix stays. Hopefully, this would mean that more modders would release learn-to-mod mods, and those releases (and how they are received in the community) may result in the modder being encouraged to continue modding. I know that for me, it was very helpful to release Timestop Tweak, because I felt like I had contributed--and it made me more eager to continue working on other projects. I'm honestly not sure I would have stayed in the IE community if it wasn't for that. Besides, more mods has never hurt the community, either.

Needless to say, I do think there are good reasons for freeing up prefixes that never will be used. I am in support of a revised version of the prefix list, however that may be. Considering that people seem to be... disagreeing, I would at least say the suggestion Kulyok listed in post 13 looks reasonable (and not too far off my original suggestion). I'd like to include the the parenthesized revision to 0), though--no, I'm not going to release a mod with EX, and Kingrames is not going to release a mod with K!.

I recently registered a prefix with the list and it wasn't my first or second choice to use, but it really didn't bother me. It's just a prefix -- I don't really care what it comprises of as long as I can remember to use it continually, and I can.

However, I don't particularly want to feel pressured about releasing an alpha of a mod, or (even worse) a learn-to mod within a certain time. I have a very clear mod that I am working on, but I also have very restrictive personal time on which to work on it. This, together, means I don't know when the 'finish' will be, but hopefully it'll be sooner rather than later.

As someone else said -- it's a hobby, and I'm doing it for the enjoyment. If you expect people to get in touch regularly to report progress, I think you risk people just giving up on the list and thinking 'whatever -- I'll use <prefix> if I want to, because I can't be bothered with the hassle' and then if they DO release a mod, you may get more conflicts. If you are the one to issue PMs or whatever, you're making a whole load of extra work for whoever is maintaining it.

I suppose I just don't get what's so important about having some special prefix -- there seems to be plenty still available?

Pre-alpha. If you can't write a dozen dialogues in 2+2 months, your mod will likely never be finished. Keep in mind that you do a great deal of the work in the initial enthusiastic phase, and it's more likely that you'll slow down even more down the line (taking the usual example of RTW, 90% of the work was done between late 2002 and mid 2003).

Hmm, has everybody seen the suggestion of change? Let's hope...

So OK, I might not use the one I have reserved, but I would like to have the option to keep it, until it's contested(asked to be removed from the list by somebody, -anybody) Ah, I take that back, as I am a modder.

A question, can we use a set prefix if the modder has left the community, but we want to update_their_work^TM a bit, and the prefix would just fit better?

Edit; ... and Cerberus.

Just to throw in something: There are people who register a prefix and turn up two years later.

And I am strongly against trying to force anyone to make early releases, pre-pre alphas or whatever. It's a hobby and should stay that way; plus, in my opinion this would only increase the number of people using no prefix or "whatever", because they fear that they will lose it anyway. If that makes sense.

Good point there. We can all post reasons why not to use the new system suggested, but a concrete example of why what we already have works is best.

This is a tough call, especially as i just changed my prefix

I would say we should pick a prefix and that should be it in an ideal world of course, that way everyone knows where they are and if they choose to use the same prefix the conflicts they are likely to have.

But if a different sort of system is required, perhaps if after 18 months or so if you haven't released or don't seem to be working on a mod you need to come back to the list and state you still want to keep the prefix? That way you don't need to release anything and if your still even remotely active you can simply keep your prefix. If someone is away for 18 months their name on the list greys out but remains to still let people know there may be a conflict in the future?

The only problem becomes, how do you track when someone has released a small mod or tweak and of course unfinished works? I don't think any system will ever be perfect but we can only find the best system we can. The list is an extremely useful reference for modders and players alike and I hope it remains strong, I think the majority can at least agree with that.

That's the problem that I foresee. How many people would remember to give the keeper of the list an update on their status as a modder -- especially after nearly two years have elapsed (I think someone mentioned that before, too.)? And if anyone were to say that the keeper needs to keep track of all these and send out emails to those who are nearing the expiration -- that would be an unreasonable burden to put on him. The suggested new system would just involve more work and inconvenience for all parties involved for the minor -- VERY minor -- gain of having prefixes that match their names or mods. (I was happy to get one that matches my name that was still available, but had someone already registered CX previously years ago, I would have chosen something else. No problems there.)

Apologies if anyone has suggested in another thread, its quite obvious so I am sure someone has.

We could have an alternate, completely fresh list by altering the usual # component of the variables as a third, fixed character. Sounds simple enough that it just might work.

You could use ! for instance, all prefixes on the second list are 2 letters + ! or some other character thats not often used, just an idea but you could virtually double the size of your potential list with just that one addition, with another one you triple it.

I'm unsure if i understood your idea the right way.
You mean that currently people are using XY# prefix for variables (ones that are used in scripts) and by changing # character with another one (!, @, $, etc.) it's possible to increase a number of combinations?
The variable names aren't a problem here as they can contain up to 24 (or 28?) characters. It's filenames (spells, creatures, items, etc.) who needs attention - they may consist of 8 characters maximum. Having only five letters to name you files is much harder than having six letters at you disposal. That's, as I believe, the reason why only two-lettered prefixes are being registered - though nobody prevents you from using the third character as well - I have AG prefix registered, but I use AG# anyway for files.

There's actually a lot to be said for using a non-alphanumeric character like # or _ somewhere in your filename - it guarantees that you won't clash with the original game. (And there are >40^5 5-letter filenames...)

For a computer mostly. I think for a human it might be difficult to keep a track using AF45F, AE45G, AF47C

I was referring to what I was saying when I mentioned that.

Thats all true to an extent but I work quite well with Q6# as my file prefixes, perhaps its just the way I read strings that makes it easy to ignore the first three characters? Though it does sound as though you understand what I mean, doing it yourself too. I believe many people, like us, would be happy enough to use three characters in front of the files and as long as one of these is a special character, you eliminate any compatibility worries.

I could easily adapt to using Q6! etc, the names are easy enough to read, especially as a lot of mods are not next mega sized mods and don't contain a huge amount of files. I do use directories perhaps more than the average modder though, so I always have things organised.



I think a lot of people feel the same, at least when i've skimmed their file names, which is what made me consider this suggestion.



I was meaning what I went on to suggest, darn typo's!

Please, no changes. There are tons of 2 symbol combinations (does anyone use _, . etc yet?), and IE modding scene is on the downward spiral. So, there is absolutely no need to start rehashing the system. Just a waste of time and make it all too confusing.

is this still under discussion? if so, I'd have to agree with Domi if it is not broke why try to fix it?
if there is someone that just cant live w/o a certain prefix maybe they can do the leg work to see if who owns that prefix and if they have released a mod, if so they cant use it. If not they can search to see if that person has been active on any of the major ie boards in the last 2? years, if the prefix holder has not been active in that time they must show proof on at least 5 boards that they have not (links of last active dates or pics of their inactivity)

but again mostly a waste of time just use a different one

Continue to converse about it if you wish, but I don't think we'll get any further. The majority opinion has been clearly on the side of leaving the present system alone. Any further discussion would probably just be reiteration of the points already made.