Just some ideas for a mod around Witches :

Dynaheir taught a female PC some magic knowledges (PC is a mage, a sorcerer or a cleric/mage)

In SoA Female PC become Minsc's Witch with some cool interactions. Not really a romance or possibility to reedem a evil PC indeed

New abilities : herbal knowledges, witches fear and more. Some items too : Robe of Witch, Rasheman leather armor

And more ...

In your opinion, this idea sounds interesting or not ? I wonder if it's possible to use some "Herbs and Potions" components ?

Good idea, I like it. As far as the Herbs mod is concerned, I gladly offer any parts of it (I just need to be informed about it before they are used).

Rashemi are very, *very* distrustful of strangers, and Dynaheir/Misnc are already breaking the custom by calling her a Wychlaran outside Rasheman. It is most likely on the pain of death that one can not devulge the secrets of the Wychlaran. Minsc is retarded enough to consider a non-Rashemi a Wychlaran (Aerie), so a Lawful Good Dynaheir pouring her knowledge into a child of the god that the Othlot had sent her to investigate and to oppsoe to (especially if a Bhaalspawn is evil!), and to a child of the god that the Three of the Rasheman dominant religion vehemently oppose... *is* unnecessary for Minsc to consider *her* a Wychlaran. (coughs) Okay, I think I have serious problems with your interpretation of Dynaheir's character and Lore clashes.

Then we don't need this Rasheman stuff. I don't care how AD&D defines this (invoker, witch, Rasheman...), so I would support a Witch kit, with herbal skills, special magic etc. as Sir Alexander said (but with the modification that it could be a kit).

Ok, no secrets from rashemani, juste some "generic" witches stuffs. It is possible than Dynaheir learn some "classical" magic to the female PC indeed ?

Thanks for your advice.

Sorry, it's me

Another question : Why Minsc can't consider female PC sorceress or mage like a "Witch" ? I like the idea to develop a deep relation between Minsc and the PC

If Minsc is raised Rasheman then every MU he has ever heard of outside of nightmares would be a Wychlaran. So why, upon seeing a female casting spells in another region, would he suddenly divert from his upbringing, education and religion? Information is not pulled from thin air like that. So despite his intelligence, In the mind of his people, a woman casting spells is a Wychlaran. Any other possibility is out of his cultural scope. And Dynaheir is a smart chic. I imagine she can discern the difference between an evil person and a young girl who doesn't stand much of a chance in her current social and political environment unless she is given a few helpful tools by a wise Wychlaran.

Dynaheir could see her as one who unknowlingly walks or could walk the path of Othlot despite her formal education in that particular theology. (plus, Sir Alexander didn't mention what diety she would serve, only a 33.3% chance of her being a cleric of some sort as part of a dual/multi).

Of course the whole concept requires a bit of character development on the part of the young girl to 1) cause Dynaheir to become endeared to her 2) see in her some potential for the specific style fo Wychlaran magic 3) possibly give some sort of test of integrity, character, maturity & resolve. aka Quest, yay! Oh.. and maybe that could turn into a stronghold quest even? Implementing the rangers cabin would be a possibility since it plays into the whole witch stereotype. :/ I'll stick to what I was saying.

I think it's fairly obvious that I think this is a great idea if given the proper attention. I'm eager to see how it turns out. Let me know if I can help. I'm not a modder but I'm told I'm a decent writer if persuaded to use spellcheck so it's legible.


P.S.
I agree that it should be a kit though. I don't see another standalone MU doing anyone any good.

That's incorrect. Wychlaran is so much more than the magic users. They are female rulers of Rashemen, the cast of the highly respected women, offending whom is pretty much punishable by death. The girls are tested at the tender age and taken away from their families if they show the gift for magic, and then are brought up as Hathrans/Wychlarans.

There are male wizards in Rashemen, called Vermionni, and those have a little bit of an alternative - they can chose thier craft or exile. Rashemen are traditionally opposed by the Red Wizards of Thay, who are both male and female, so no Rashemi thinks that every mage is necessarily a Wychlaran. They are also well aware of what is going on outside, especially in their neighboring region, and the whole idea of dajemma is to educate the young men and women about the outside world and bring back more information to Rashemen.

Dynaheir's friendship with PC is not something out of the question. Dynaheir revealing the secrets of her country if she would want to ever return pretty much is.

Plus, the only way to implement Dynaheir teaching the PC is to make a mod that spans over both BG1 and BG2. Otherwise, you make waaay too many assumptions about the PC in the beginning of Bg2. That Dynaheir liked her. That she taught her. That Minsc knows about it.

Considering <charname> is accepted into the upper echelons of nearly every race/nation that he comes into contact with during BG1 & 2 I don't think it is beyond belief that Dynaheir would see the power within <charname> and attempt to influence it in Rasheman's favour.

If that meant guiding <charname> in the tenets of Wychlaran I think she would make that decision on her nations behalf and by the time we reach the end of ToB I think any rulers in her country would have agreed with her decisions.

Rasheman == Russia Man... well, snow, tribal matriarchy, big dumb rangers, and all that *the antipodes* could think up about Russia. Well they couldn't resist to make Dynaheir black just because someone in a play has to be black.

That is the very reason I quoted the comment about Aerie specifically. But I don't care to argue details. I merely wanted to point out that there is a lot more potential than nonsense in Sir Alexanders idea. Guess I got a bit off topic. You seem to know much more than me about Rasheman ad it's culture so I digress humbly. The idea of the witch kit still rocks.

That is simply *not* true in BG1. In BG1, Charname is an adventurer with some weak prospects, he has to cheat and steal to get invited to Sarevok's coronation in the very *end* of the game, where the whole aristocratic bloom of Baldur's Gate is gathered. Prior to that, he on the order of the Captain of the Guard (Scar) looked for an ogre in the sewers, and the like, plus roamed the country side, where a Mayor of Nashkel was not sure if he is up to snuff for killing a few kobolds. It's not until ToB that PC is a celebrity, after he had set Suldanessellar to rights.

To Dynaheir, by the time of her death, Charname will be a promissing upstart, that is potentially dangerous and could lead to ressurection of a god that her country opposes. Guiding him/her - hell, yes. Revealing the sacred secrets of her nation to him/her, I think not.

Again, there is nothing that sais that Minsc will not treats PC as he treats Aerie, and he could protect and stuff. But Dynaheir is another cup of tea entirely, and making her reveal it all to Charname is not exactly a winning idea, stinking of Mary-Sue. Minsc selecting Charname *over* Aerie is bad again from Mary-Sue standpoint, with Charname gathering to herself every scrap of "special" treatments from every NPC.

Just how bloody special Charname has to be? Is not being a spawn of Bhaal and the best thing that ever hit the Sword Coast ENOUGH? Does she has to be a Wychlaran who learned all there was to learn in a couple of months instead of years as well? Dynaheir is a very special, very interesting NPC, because of her background. Why should she be stripped of that mantle in favor of PC? You want a Wychlaran? Introduce a proper Wychlaran kit in BG1 for Dynaheir.

But please, don't make a Charname into *another* Rand Al'Thor, who is a Dragon Reborn, and He Who Comes with the Dawn, and a Cor'amoor, and gods knows what else besides!

I think you feel a bit too strongly about this Wychlaran thing. The fact is that nearly every major event in both games and ToB revolves around <charname>.

In BG1 <charname> isn't just given quests to find some ogre's in the sewers. He is the one who saves Duke Eltan, is entrusted with uncovering Sarevoks machinations and saving the other Dukes at the Duchal Palace.

Unfortunately that is the whole point of BG, SoA and ToB, <charname> can become a god afterall. You are making choices for Dynaheir in the statements you make, anyone elses's statements are just as valid and can be plausible in the game world if done well.

If someone wants to create a mod where the PC is interested in learning more about the Wychlaran way, why not? Dynheir would be the logical place to start. Give the PC a Wychlaran kit and add some dialog to Candlekeep saying she was raised as Wychlaran but never returned to Rasheman as Gorion knew she was a child of bhaal (pretty much the reason why <charname> of any class/kit remains in Candlekeep). Use this to forge a deeper connection between Dynaheir and <charname>. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

Which happens within the past few *days* of the game. Before that PC is hardly a VIP. And that's the *beauty* of BG1.



Not "a god", but a very specific God of Murder, and that is more than sufficient for any one character. Just like the Dragon reborn is more than enough for Rand. It's just Jordan has to load him up with the other titles and make the whole world place some new distinction on him.



I am not making choices for Dynaheir, I am explaining why I don't like a certain idea, based on the lore, the information I have about the character and what I dislike about certain fantasy literature trends.



Because a Wychlaran is intimately tied to Rashemi culture and makes no sense outside of Rashemen. Outside of Rashemen, if not on dajemma a Whychlaran is some MU. Because it changes the PC's entire story and scewes the background - PC's mother hence should be a Rashemi, and PC needed to be raised in Rashemen and somehow stolen from there by the Bhaalists. As far as we know PC has *no* memory of his life prior to being raised by Gorion, so whatever teachings were bestowed on the little girl, should she had been born and raised in Rashemen, they would have been lost. It will make Dynaheir's reason to come to SC to find that stolen child and return it back to Rashemen.

But above all else, my main objectioon is that it takes something "special" from an NPC and transfers it to the PC, like a shiny toy.

That's what wrong with the idea in *my* book.

Nobody obviously have to carter their mods to me, but I trust that we are not yet forbidden to experess our reservations about the ideas here?

In BG1 <charname> is always VIP in the eyes of the enemies, most enemy parties know you by name and want to kill you.

I agree with Rabain, and I think that ideas shouldn't be taken so strictly (like Domi does), because most players just don't care about these 'rules' or whatever, they want to have fun with herbs and new magics.

They know you by name, because there is a bounty on your head, not because you some great hero/ine of the godly proportions.



The 'rules' is what makes the FR world FR world. The characters belong to it. Or stick out like sore thumbs screaming that they are Mary-Sues.

If people want to have fun with magics and spells and herbs, there are plenty of ways to achieve that without putting the lore upside down and making the NPCs to become PC's indulgence slaves. The PC can be perfectly a Herbalist, or a Shaman or whatever kit that is legitimate and not out of place in the region, while Dynaheir can keep her unique and exotic flavor. Or one can perfectly design a TC that is set on the borders of Rashemen and Thay and one of the options is to be a Whychlaran.

By making PC a Wychlaran you both devalue Dynaheir and make the PC's background illegitimate, confusing and over the top. Because what are you going to do next? Make PC a lost SeaWolf Barbarian because you want Branwen to teach him the ways of the Moonshaes? Or a Thayvian nobleman so that Edwin could bring him to Zulkir?

I second that.

I agree with Baronius. The main aim of the game is fun. Most (if not all) rules are DM-optional.

This is not something said only by Baronius or by me. I remember founders and celebrities of AD&D said the same thing as well (i.e. Gary Gygax and others).

Taking into account an in-game character's established personality, and not repeating tired fantasy clichés are 'rules'?

Good suggestions to keep in mind when making a mod/story certainly, but not rules, and definitely not things you should expect most players to not care about/ignore.

So all this effort is just to tell everyone you don't like someone's idea? Seems like the energy could have gone into at least one constructive idea to help Sir Alexander make this better instead of tearing him down. you seem to be the authority on the subject yet you refuse to contribute constructively. I sincerely hope your ideas get a better reception that what you've given this guy.

Not necessarily. You could have Dynaheir give the PC an item at the end of BG1 if she was learning the ways of the Wychlaran. If the PC has this item when imported into SoA, then a variable is set and Dynaheir will continue her teaching. The only important caveat is that the player must be told never to get rid of this item until Irenicus takes it at the beginning of SoA (preferably by telling the player in the readme).

If the player wants to make the assumptions, this item could always be summoned in via CLUAConsole.

I'm not sure it's a big deal, anyway. If the player doesn't like the assumptions, then the mod won't be installed.

You are still important, still VIP in this respect. Things are happening around you. And this is what counts. (I would just repeat one of Rabain's previous posts if I continued.)


It is true, and I think they must not be ignored. And too big contradictions are not good either. But imagination and creativity is needed when creating a good mod, and sometimes this requires you not to follow every rule accurately. And if this results in a good mod, then it did worth it.

Yes, all these efforts, because I hate just saying "I don't like it" without explaining why I don't like it. I try to be as even-handed, thorough and open-minded as possible. If that is not appreciated, here we go: OMG! THAT"S LIKE Z COOLEZT IDEA EVAR! I LOVE IT TO BITZ.

Actually, I have given plenty of costructive ideas about making it work in the setting, such as:

-implementing alternative kits (Herbalist, Shaman, Witch etc),
-implementing a proper Wychlaran kit in BG1 for Dynaheir,
-making a short add-on mod that takes place on the Thay and Rashemen border and includes a possibility of playing Wychlaran, Beserker or a Red Wizard
-having Minsc treat the PC *like* Wychlaran (ie the same way he treats Aerie) without PC being a Wychlaran

Here is another one:

-Make an independent BG2 NPC who is a more high-ranking Hathran than Dynaheir and was summoned by Dynaheir herself to aid her with the "guiding" of the PC. She can replace Dynaheir and be a different, interesting character with plenty of lore and baggage, and a cool personality.

I have also supplied information about Wychlaran; it sounds a tad strange to me to make a mod about Wychlaran without knowing anything about Wychlaran, except that Minsc protected one. I, for one, had acculmulated this info while I was writing Dynaheir's dialogues and romance.

As for my own ideas, some were recieved well, some ignored, some shot down. I find it a normal state of things. And I would definetly always be greatful for any feedback about possible problems at an early stage of development. The earlier, the better. I had abandoned mods before, because I was too stubborn to see that they would not work. Check out the MV board on G3. Cool idea, certainly. But breaks BG2 into pieces.



Making a Wychalarn who is NOT a Wychlaran and calling her a Wychlaran for the sake of a pretty name is not a big contradiction? It's the same as make an elven PC a Greycloak of Evereska without him ever seeing Evereska. Please, try to understand that Wychalaran or a Red Wizard of Thay is a REGIONAL category, and only makes sense within the region.

If you are writing a historical book about the Earth history, you won't try to make a 14th century Medician cardinal in a Papal State who also happens to be a worshipper of the Feathered Snake of Aztecs, now, would you?

I don't understand why people chose to view the setting as obstacle that has to be overcome, when there are so many ways of making it work for you, making it sparkle and create interesting stories.

Pretend you were raised as a Wychalaran, what is so hard to adjust to here. Gorion found out you were born Rashemani, in respect of its culture he raised you Wychalaran as best he could once he realised you had magical powers. Dynaheir see's you do some Wychalaran-like things while practising, enter the guiding Dynaheir story-line.

The PC is pretty restricted having lived in Candlekeep her whole life. Most of the kits in BG2 are jokes if you backtrack them to BG1...kensai, paladin? Look at any divine class, would a god grant divine spellcasting to a known child of another god (never mind the god of murder). Surely a god is capable of knowing what blood runs in its worshippers veins even if the worshipper herself doesn't know. If players can overcome these glaring inconsistencies they can surely overcome the small one outlined above, no? The fact that these classes are regional should not rule them out for use in mods involving the PC.

Even if you forget Wychalaran, there is nothing wrong with Dynaheir guiding another magic-user, young and inexperienced. I am sure there are "witches" in other parts of Faerun that do not fall under the aegis of the Wychalaran.

The debates are impassioned I see Domi, I will avoid any reference to the Rashmen culture I promise. I need more lore on the FR, perhaps, I'm not an FR expert, sorry.

I think implement an alternative mage kit ("witch") and new HLAs. More Items, more dialogues too. And I hope to create good stuffs

Alright little buddy, calm down. I didn't mean to upset you. I'm sorry. I see your point and I think it's great that this community has a knowledgable and active person such as yourself around to give input on the fine points. I hope we're 5x5. I'll be putting some ideas here soon and I hope you won't hesitate to share your thoughts when the time comes.

@ Sir Alexander:
I'm looking forward to the mod. Let me know if I can help with any of the writing.

Now, that would be cool. Feel free to buzz me if you want to speckle the dialogues with the elaborate points of the difference between the new kit and Hathrans or any Rashemen info

I may be mistaken but I think a lot of the Rashemi magic only works in Rasheman itself, since it is tied to spirits there... which might limit any hypothetical special ablilities of Dynaheir, or how much she could teach.

Just figured I'd point that out.

Possible solutions:
1. (Weaker idea) Some magical channel with Rasheman. Or something similar.
2. (Better idea) Witch magic. If Wychlaran can be omitted, Rasheman doesn't have to be stressed too much either. Just witch magic. I know that Dynaheir has a "little" connection with Rashemi magic but the clever magic-user is able to play with the forms of the magic and transforming energies in new places.

No takers though on a small Rashemen-Thay border module? Could have been lovely

I think that a small Reshmen-Thay border TC would be interesting