Witches... Options

[Sir Alexander]

Just some ideas for a mod around Witches :

Dynaheir taught a female PC some magic knowledges (PC is a mage, a sorcerer or a cleric/mage)

In SoA Female PC become Minsc's Witch with some cool interactions. Not really a romance or possibility to reedem a evil PC indeed

New abilities : herbal knowledges, witches fear and more. Some items too : Robe of Witch, Rasheman leather armor

And more ...

In your opinion, this idea sounds interesting or not ? I wonder if it's possible to use some "Herbs and Potions" components ?

This post has been edited by Sir Alexander: Jan 8 2006, 01:01 AM

[Baronius]

Good idea, I like it. As far as the Herbs mod is concerned, I gladly offer any parts of it (I just need to be informed about it before they are used).

[Domi]

Rashemi are very, *very* distrustful of strangers, and Dynaheir/Misnc are already breaking the custom by calling her a Wychlaran outside Rasheman. It is most likely on the pain of death that one can not devulge the secrets of the Wychlaran. Minsc is retarded enough to consider a non-Rashemi a Wychlaran (Aerie), so a Lawful Good Dynaheir pouring her knowledge into a child of the god that the Othlot had sent her to investigate and to oppsoe to (especially if a Bhaalspawn is evil!), and to a child of the god that the Three of the Rasheman dominant religion vehemently oppose... *is* unnecessary for Minsc to consider *her* a Wychlaran. (coughs) Okay, I think I have serious problems with your interpretation of Dynaheir's character and Lore clashes.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 7 2006, 07:01 PM

[Baronius]

Then we don't need this Rasheman stuff. I don't care how AD&D defines this (invoker, witch, Rasheman...), so I would support a Witch kit, with herbal skills, special magic etc. as Sir Alexander said (but with the modification that it could be a kit).

[Guest]

Rashemi are very, *very* distrustful of strangers, and Dynaheir/Misnc are already breaking the custom by calling her a Wychlaran outside Rasheman. It is most likely on the pain of death that one can not devulge the secrets of the Wychlaran. Minsc is retarded enough to consider a non-Rashemi a Wychlaran (Aerie), so a Lawful Good Dynaheir pouring her knowledge into a child of the god that the Othlot had sent her to investigate and to oppsoe to (especially if a Bhaalspawn is evil!), and to a child of the god that the Three of the Rasheman dominant religion vehemently oppose... *is* unnecessary for Minsc to consider *her* a Wychlaran. (coughs) Okay, I think I have serious problems with your interpretation of Dynaheir's character and Lore clashes.

Ok, no secrets from rashemani, juste some "generic" witches stuffs. It is possible than Dynaheir learn some "classical" magic to the female PC indeed ?

Thanks for your advice.

[Sir Alexander]

Sorry, it's me

Another question : Why Minsc can't consider female PC sorceress or mage like a "Witch" ? I like the idea to develop a deep relation between Minsc and the PC

This post has been edited by Sir Alexander: Jan 8 2006, 01:05 AM

[Sohlside]

Minsc is retarded enough to consider a non-Rashemi a Wychlaran (Aerie), so a Lawful Good Dynaheir pouring her knowledge into a child of the god that the Othlot had sent her to investigate and to oppsoe to (especially if a Bhaalspawn is evil!), and to a child of the god that the Three of the Rasheman dominant religion vehemently oppose... *is* unnecessary for Minsc to consider *her* a Wychlaran.

If Minsc is raised Rasheman then every MU he has ever heard of outside of nightmares would be a Wychlaran. So why, upon seeing a female casting spells in another region, would he suddenly divert from his upbringing, education and religion? Information is not pulled from thin air like that. So despite his intelligence, In the mind of his people, a woman casting spells is a Wychlaran. Any other possibility is out of his cultural scope. And Dynaheir is a smart chic. I imagine she can discern the difference between an evil person and a young girl who doesn't stand much of a chance in her current social and political environment unless she is given a few helpful tools by a wise Wychlaran.

Dynaheir could see her as one who unknowlingly walks or could walk the path of Othlot despite her formal education in that particular theology. (plus, Sir Alexander didn't mention what diety she would serve, only a 33.3% chance of her being a cleric of some sort as part of a dual/multi).

Of course the whole concept requires a bit of character development on the part of the young girl to 1) cause Dynaheir to become endeared to her 2) see in her some potential for the specific style fo Wychlaran magic 3) possibly give some sort of test of integrity, character, maturity & resolve. aka Quest, yay! Oh.. and maybe that could turn into a stronghold quest even? Implementing the rangers cabin would be a possibility since it plays into the whole witch stereotype. :/ I'll stick to what I was saying.

I think it's fairly obvious that I think this is a great idea if given the proper attention. I'm eager to see how it turns out. Let me know if I can help. I'm not a modder but I'm told I'm a decent writer if persuaded to use spellcheck so it's legible.


P.S.
I agree that it should be a kit though. I don't see another standalone MU doing anyone any good.

This post has been edited by Sohlside: Jan 8 2006, 11:14 AM

[Domi]

If Minsc is raised Rasheman then every MU he has ever heard of outside of nightmares would be a Wychlaran.

That's incorrect. Wychlaran is so much more than the magic users. They are female rulers of Rashemen, the cast of the highly respected women, offending whom is pretty much punishable by death. The girls are tested at the tender age and taken away from their families if they show the gift for magic, and then are brought up as Hathrans/Wychlarans.

There are male wizards in Rashemen, called Vermionni, and those have a little bit of an alternative - they can chose thier craft or exile. Rashemen are traditionally opposed by the Red Wizards of Thay, who are both male and female, so no Rashemi thinks that every mage is necessarily a Wychlaran. They are also well aware of what is going on outside, especially in their neighboring region, and the whole idea of dajemma is to educate the young men and women about the outside world and bring back more information to Rashemen.

Dynaheir's friendship with PC is not something out of the question. Dynaheir revealing the secrets of her country if she would want to ever return pretty much is.

Plus, the only way to implement Dynaheir teaching the PC is to make a mod that spans over both BG1 and BG2. Otherwise, you make waaay too many assumptions about the PC in the beginning of Bg2. That Dynaheir liked her. That she taught her. That Minsc knows about it.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 8 2006, 05:38 PM

[Rabain]

Considering <charname> is accepted into the upper echelons of nearly every race/nation that he comes into contact with during BG1 & 2 I don't think it is beyond belief that Dynaheir would see the power within <charname> and attempt to influence it in Rasheman's favour.

If that meant guiding <charname> in the tenets of Wychlaran I think she would make that decision on her nations behalf and by the time we reach the end of ToB I think any rulers in her country would have agreed with her decisions.

[Vlad]

Rasheman == Russia Man... well, snow, tribal matriarchy, big dumb rangers, and all that *the antipodes* could think up about Russia. Well they couldn't resist to make Dynaheir black just because someone in a play has to be black.

This post has been edited by Vlad: Jan 8 2006, 06:17 PM

[Sohlside]

If Minsc is raised Rasheman then every MU he has ever heard of outside of nightmares would be a Wychlaran.

That's incorrect. Wychlaran is so much more than the magic users. They are female rulers of Rashemen, the cast of the highly respected women, offending whom is pretty much punishable by death. The girls are tested at the tender age and taken away from their families if they show the gift for magic, and then are brought up as Hathrans/Wychlarans.

There are male wizards in Rashemen, called Vermionni, and those have a little bit of an alternative - they can chose thier craft or exile. Rashemen are traditionally opposed by the Red Wizards of Thay, who are both male and female, so no Rashemi thinks that every mage is necessarily a Wychlaran. They are also well aware of what is going on outside, especially in their neighboring region, and the whole idea of dajemma is to educate the young men and women about the outside world and bring back more information to Rashemen.

Dynaheir's friendship with PC is not something out of the question. Dynaheir revealing the secrets of her country if she would want to ever return pretty much is.

Plus, the only way to implement Dynaheir teaching the PC is to make a mod that spans over both BG1 and BG2. Otherwise, you make waaay too many assumptions about the PC in the beginning of Bg2. That Dynaheir liked her. That she taught her. That Minsc knows about it.

That is the very reason I quoted the comment about Aerie specifically. But I don't care to argue details. I merely wanted to point out that there is a lot more potential than nonsense in Sir Alexanders idea. Guess I got a bit off topic. You seem to know much more than me about Rasheman ad it's culture so I digress humbly. The idea of the witch kit still rocks.

[Domi]

Considering <charname> is accepted into the upper echelons of nearly every race/nation that he comes into contact with during BG1 & 2 I don't think it is beyond belief that Dynaheir would see the power within <charname> and attempt to influence it in Rasheman's favour.

That is simply *not* true in BG1. In BG1, Charname is an adventurer with some weak prospects, he has to cheat and steal to get invited to Sarevok's coronation in the very *end* of the game, where the whole aristocratic bloom of Baldur's Gate is gathered. Prior to that, he on the order of the Captain of the Guard (Scar) looked for an ogre in the sewers, and the like, plus roamed the country side, where a Mayor of Nashkel was not sure if he is up to snuff for killing a few kobolds. It's not until ToB that PC is a celebrity, after he had set Suldanessellar to rights.

To Dynaheir, by the time of her death, Charname will be a promissing upstart, that is potentially dangerous and could lead to ressurection of a god that her country opposes. Guiding him/her - hell, yes. Revealing the sacred secrets of her nation to him/her, I think not.

Again, there is nothing that sais that Minsc will not treats PC as he treats Aerie, and he could protect and stuff. But Dynaheir is another cup of tea entirely, and making her reveal it all to Charname is not exactly a winning idea, stinking of Mary-Sue. Minsc selecting Charname *over* Aerie is bad again from Mary-Sue standpoint, with Charname gathering to herself every scrap of "special" treatments from every NPC.

Just how bloody special Charname has to be? Is not being a spawn of Bhaal and the best thing that ever hit the Sword Coast ENOUGH? Does she has to be a Wychlaran who learned all there was to learn in a couple of months instead of years as well? Dynaheir is a very special, very interesting NPC, because of her background. Why should she be stripped of that mantle in favor of PC? You want a Wychlaran? Introduce a proper Wychlaran kit in BG1 for Dynaheir.

But please, don't make a Charname into *another* Rand Al'Thor, who is a Dragon Reborn, and He Who Comes with the Dawn, and a Cor'amoor, and gods knows what else besides!

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 8 2006, 09:57 PM

[Rabain]

I think you feel a bit too strongly about this Wychlaran thing. The fact is that nearly every major event in both games and ToB revolves around <charname>.

In BG1 <charname> isn't just given quests to find some ogre's in the sewers. He is the one who saves Duke Eltan, is entrusted with uncovering Sarevoks machinations and saving the other Dukes at the Duchal Palace.

But please, don't make a Charname into *another* Rand Al'Thor, who is a Dragon Reborn, and He Who Comes with the Dawn, and a Cor'amoor, and gods knows what else besides!

Unfortunately that is the whole point of BG, SoA and ToB, <charname> can become a god afterall. You are making choices for Dynaheir in the statements you make, anyone elses's statements are just as valid and can be plausible in the game world if done well.

If someone wants to create a mod where the PC is interested in learning more about the Wychlaran way, why not? Dynheir would be the logical place to start. Give the PC a Wychlaran kit and add some dialog to Candlekeep saying she was raised as Wychlaran but never returned to Rasheman as Gorion knew she was a child of bhaal (pretty much the reason why <charname> of any class/kit remains in Candlekeep). Use this to forge a deeper connection between Dynaheir and <charname>. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

[Domi]

In BG1 <charname> isn't just given quests to find some ogre's in the sewers. He is the one who saves Duke Eltan, is entrusted with uncovering Sarevoks machinations and saving the other Dukes at the Duchal Palace.

Which happens within the past few *days* of the game. Before that PC is hardly a VIP. And that's the *beauty* of BG1.

Unfortunately that is the whole point of BG, SoA and ToB, <charname> can become a god afterall.

Not "a god", but a very specific God of Murder, and that is more than sufficient for any one character. Just like the Dragon reborn is more than enough for Rand. It's just Jordan has to load him up with the other titles and make the whole world place some new distinction on him.

You are making choices for Dynaheir in the statements you make, anyone elses's statements are just as valid and can be plausible in the game world if done well.

I am not making choices for Dynaheir, I am explaining why I don't like a certain idea, based on the lore, the information I have about the character and what I dislike about certain fantasy literature trends.

If someone wants to create a mod where the PC is interested in learning more about the Wychlaran way, why not? Dynheir would be the logical place to start. Give the PC a Wychlaran kit and add some dialog to Candlekeep saying she was raised as Wychlaran but never returned to Rasheman as Gorion knew she was a child of bhaal (pretty much the reason why <charname> of any class/kit remains in Candlekeep). Use this to forge a deeper connection between Dynaheir and <charname>. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

Because a Wychlaran is intimately tied to Rashemi culture and makes no sense outside of Rashemen. Outside of Rashemen, if not on dajemma a Whychlaran is some MU. Because it changes the PC's entire story and scewes the background - PC's mother hence should be a Rashemi, and PC needed to be raised in Rashemen and somehow stolen from there by the Bhaalists. As far as we know PC has *no* memory of his life prior to being raised by Gorion, so whatever teachings were bestowed on the little girl, should she had been born and raised in Rashemen, they would have been lost. It will make Dynaheir's reason to come to SC to find that stolen child and return it back to Rashemen.

But above all else, my main objectioon is that it takes something "special" from an NPC and transfers it to the PC, like a shiny toy.

That's what wrong with the idea in *my* book.

Nobody obviously have to carter their mods to me, but I trust that we are not yet forbidden to experess our reservations about the ideas here?

[Baronius]

Before that PC is hardly a VIP. And that's the *beauty* of BG1.

In BG1 <charname> is always VIP in the eyes of the enemies, most enemy parties know you by name and want to kill you.

I agree with Rabain, and I think that ideas shouldn't be taken so strictly (like Domi does), because most players just don't care about these 'rules' or whatever, they want to have fun with herbs and new magics.

[Domi]

In BG1 <charname> is always VIP in the eyes of the enemies, most enemy parties know you by name and want to kill you.

They know you by name, because there is a bounty on your head, not because you some great hero/ine of the godly proportions.

about these 'rules' or whatever

The 'rules' is what makes the FR world FR world. The characters belong to it. Or stick out like sore thumbs screaming that they are Mary-Sues.

If people want to have fun with magics and spells and herbs, there are plenty of ways to achieve that without putting the lore upside down and making the NPCs to become PC's indulgence slaves. The PC can be perfectly a Herbalist, or a Shaman or whatever kit that is legitimate and not out of place in the region, while Dynaheir can keep her unique and exotic flavor. Or one can perfectly design a TC that is set on the borders of Rashemen and Thay and one of the options is to be a Whychlaran.

By making PC a Wychlaran you both devalue Dynaheir and make the PC's background illegitimate, confusing and over the top. Because what are you going to do next? Make PC a lost SeaWolf Barbarian because you want Branwen to teach him the ways of the Moonshaes? Or a Thayvian nobleman so that Edwin could bring him to Zulkir?

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 9 2006, 01:12 AM

[Sorrow]

I second that.

[Sikret]

I agree with Baronius. The main aim of the game is fun. Most (if not all) rules are DM-optional.

This is not something said only by Baronius or by me. I remember founders and celebrities of AD&D said the same thing as well (i.e. Gary Gygax and others).

[NiGHTMARE]

Taking into account an in-game character's established personality, and not repeating tired fantasy clichés are 'rules'?

Good suggestions to keep in mind when making a mod/story certainly, but not rules, and definitely not things you should expect most players to not care about/ignore.

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Jan 9 2006, 11:19 AM

[Sohlside]

I am not making choices for Dynaheir, I am explaining why I don't like a certain idea,

So all this effort is just to tell everyone you don't like someone's idea? Seems like the energy could have gone into at least one constructive idea to help Sir Alexander make this better instead of tearing him down. you seem to be the authority on the subject yet you refuse to contribute constructively. I sincerely hope your ideas get a better reception that what you've given this guy.