Geh4th's v5.0 game thread, progress, trouble, questions, requests for advice, etc Options

[Ryel ril Ers]

1)If you start another game there are very high risk to cancel it permanently. I do it sometimes and i abandon it sadly.
2)The skald not enough strong to anvil. They cant fight enough well, and you waste a character slot to a character who singing in the 80% of the game, and sometimes throw a spell. The main problem of the skald is he cannot dual wield, and has only one attack. The worst thing is that the HLA improved bard song more effective than the skald song, and any bard can learn it. Their maximum effective attack per round is 4 (with belm and improved haste)
The blade is more effective than the skald. Their lore are not as good but enough, and much better than the mages, they do the pickpocket better. They reach the 100% early so you can earn some bonus money from athakala without thiving potion. They can learn dual weapon style with *** and so they can attack more per round. Their spins are very good and add good AC or max damage and thac0. They need some babysitting but after a small time they are very good subtite of a fighter/mage.
3)Don't alter Imoen class she is not bard. If you want a bard pick up Haer'Dalis
4)Advise: change your PC to Conjurer or Necromancer because the sorcerer has smaller chance to forge memori of apprenti, change your f/m to gnome F/I, F/M/C or Haer'Dalis or a custom skald if you want it all price. Use Imoen as sorcerer. In this way you cannot use game editor so you won't become cheater.

[lroumen]

A skald isn't very good when weapons are concerned, but you can accomplish a few bits to use them properly.
You can use a Skald for bows (Tuigan Bow = 3 attacks per round if I recall correctly, quite decent) or crossbows, although you do have to find arrows/bolts with a decent enchantment since certain monsters require a certain enchantment to hit. Some monsters are also immune to missile damage altogether, so be wary when that happens and just sing.
You can also go with (returning) darts or throwing daggers, throwing axes, throwing hammers.... the good ones are more difficult to come by and you may not be attacking very often (save for the darts), but once you find them the odd hit would do well. You can also use Melf's Minute Meteors for a bit of a kick, but I'd rather save a few slots for more useful spells, i.e. don't go too much overboard on the meteors.

I usually use my crappy melee/ranged characters to kill off summoned spiders or something whilst keeping them off the casting so I can more easily anticipate enemy casters.

[Raven]

I'd have to agree with Ryel that the Skald isn't a very strong character (even without IA they are unfortunately obsolete because of the bard song HLA).

At the moment your party has only Valygar with the single-class fighter THAC0 progression because of including both a fighter/mage and a fighter/thief. IMO you may want to replace one or other with a single class fighter or, maybe better, a dual class, for instance replacing the fighter/mage with a berserker/mage dual, or the fighter/thief with a swashbuckler/fighter or berserker/thief.

[geh4th]

"3)Don't alter Imoen class she is not bard. If you want a bard pick up Haer'Dalis."



Well, she's not a Sorcerer, either. Technically.

And frankly, I have no use for Haer'Dalis. IMO he's annoying and just about the worst NPC in the game, despite his nice personal sword.

I mean really, can changing Imoen's class be considered "cheating" when Sikret has already done it? That is, as long as it doesn't BREAK anything within the mechanics of BG2 or IA, which is what I'm really looking to know. Changing Valygar or Keldorn to some other class would screw up their personal items. Imoen's actual profession doesn't appear to be central to the story or to game mechanics unless there's something I don't yet know.

I suspect that Imoen became a sorcerer primarily because SoA doesn't have one outside of NPC Mods. I also gather that Sikret doesn't have much use (personally) for thief/mages. IA has made thieves considerably less useful, so it was a natural development to change Immy to a Sorcerer. I further suspect that Bards will lose all their appeal with the planned v6.0 changes. Just how much appeal they've ever had is a matter for debate. I know if they don't get 6th level spells, I'll never use one, as a marginal class becomes basically useless with that change. Taking away THE most important spells from a class that's effectiveness is already in question - as you've pointed out - can't be anything but a negative for that class. Just my opinion, of course.

My own reasoning for wanting a bard was:
1) Spells to 8th level (eventually) makes her a decent backup mage-type, particularly as a dispeller.
2) That wonderful armor that gives more spells and permanent improved alacrity. I don't know how hard it is to get, but it's very appealing.
3) Levelling faster, which means that someone might actually be effective in casting remove magic on some of these bad guys. I know Keldorn can do his dispels at (nerfed) higher levels, but I don't have room for Keldorn because of other priorities.
4) A Bard always has something useful to do. If not casting, singing. If needed, she can fight. Sure, she wouldn't have the extra attacks per round, but (as a Skald) can learn any weapon, and has a built-in +1 to hit/+1 damage. This means the Skald is "almost specialized" in any weapon by merely being proficient.
5) UAI and the Enhanced Bard song: even for a Skald, the Enhanced song is well worth the HLA pick. It's not as much of a jump but it's considerably better anyhow. As for UAI, being able to use nearly any non-personalized item is rather big if you ask me.

I think I understand the disadvantages: fighting with weak HP totals (my biggest gripe about Haer'Dalis) makes her totally dependant on magical protection, less attacks per round, etc etc. The offensive spin is about the only thing a Blade has going for it over a Skald, with the bonuses and the one extra attack. IA's monsters probably wouldn't even be slowed down by a blade doing a defensive spin. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Marceror]

I mean really, can changing Imoen's class be considered "cheating" when Sikret has already done it? That is, as long as it doesn't BREAK anything within the mechanics of BG2 or IA, which is what I'm really looking to know. Changing Valygar or Keldorn to some other class would screw up their personal items. Imoen's actual profession doesn't appear to be central to the story or to game mechanics unless there's something I don't yet know.

As far as I'm concerned, being able to change an NPC's class is an earned right for seasoned BG players. Anyone who tries to claim this is cheating, is misguided in my opinion. Of course, as you point out, you need to make sure you're not breaking the game in some way by doing so. Ultimately, a player making such a change is little different than a modder making such a change, although the method of getting there tends to be different. Neither, in my opinion, are "cheating" by taking some liberties with character classes. You could accomplish basically the same thing by creating multiplayer characters, but of course this means that you miss out on the company of your beloved Bioware NPCs.

At the end of the day, you should create the party that you want, and if you can accomplish this with Bioware NPCs, perhaps with a little surgery, go for it.

This post has been edited by Marceror: Aug 5 2008, 04:02 PM

[lroumen]

If you ask me, you can always change other NPCs that don't need to be saved in spellhold. That way you're more certain to not mess up anything in particular (i.e. Sikret may have constructed a few scripts for sorceress imoen that would end up illogical or maybe bugged for non sorceress imoen).

[Shadan]

About bards:

I think only blade is usable in IA now and even blades will be among unusable classes in v6.

Geh4th: Defensive spin is very usefull when combined with Stoneskin. Especially at the 1st half of the game. If you cast PfMW many enemies change target, so you cannot effectively tank them. Butt def. spin+Mirror Image+Blur+Stoneskin makes you to good tank. With offensive spin and *** in two handed style baldes can attack 6 times with Impr. Haste. It is a big difference compared to skald's 2 attacks... Don't count Belm, it has only +2 enchantment, so it is usless in most IA fights...

[Ryel ril Ers]

I also plan to use several multiclass NPC's in this group, a Dwarven Fighter-Thief and an Elven Fighter-Mage. I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out or finding info on gaining high-level abilities. Can someone tell me how gaining HLA's works for Multiclass characters? Is it at 3-million-ish total XP, or when each class has that much XP, or something else entirely? If this is written someplace, I'd appreciate info on where.

Because nobody answered your question i try it. The multi class characters no matter double or triple class start to gain HLA on highter xp level. The single and dual classed characters gain the first in the first level up after reach 3 million xp (in dual class i think the second class). The multi class character start to gain HLA after they reach around 4.4 million xp if i remember correctly, but they get HLA in level up of their all classes. Another important thing the triple classes don't acces the mage HLA's only the other too. I don't know this is fixed in IA or not but in the vanilla game that was true sadly.

[Kerkes]

Baldurdash fixes triple multiclass HLAS by making f/m/c and f/m/t being able to choose extra 6th, 7th and 8th level slot for mage spellbook. You don't get any other mage HLAs, but that's not that important anyway. Improved Alcatry would be nice, but others are a no no for multiclass IMO. Multiclasses don't get many HLAs in IA and you don't want to waste them.
I liked bards a lot before, but I think that berserker-mage dual is so much better because:
1)he needs no babysitting
2)gets a very nice thac0
3)attacks 6 times per round with imp.hate with a 2-handed weapon
4)learns and casts spells from any level
5)rocks during timestop
6)can get 18+ strenght from beginning
7)has a lot of hp, thus being not so vulnerable to power word spells

Bards are good, but for true late game power go multi f/m or f/i (even better IMO) or the above ber-mage dual.

This post has been edited by Kerkes: Aug 7 2008, 11:30 PM

[Sikret]

The single and dual classed characters gain the first in the first level up after reach 3 million xp (in dual class i think the second class). The multi class character start to gain HLA after they reach around 4.4 million xp if i remember correctly

The single and dual class characters start gaining HLAs with around 3,400,000 xp; the multi-class ones require 50% more xp, which means they start gaining HLAs with about 5,100,000 xp.

@geh4th

As for changing Imoen's class, feel free to do it. As long as you do it perfectly considering all of the legal requirements, it's not a probelem. You should be careful to erase all of her spells from her spellbook as well, because as a sorceress she could know those spells, but as a mage or bard, she has to work hard to find the scrolls of some of those spells. Changing her into an illegal character such as kitted multi-class thief/mage is cheating of course. I'm giving this permission only for Imoen here. Changing other NPCs' classes or kits may cause serious problems as you noted.

However, I don't agree with the general argument that since Sikret has done something, the player can undo it or do something similar in his game (without turning to be a cheater). When you agree to play IA, you agree to play the game in my created world and with my proposed rules. Changing the rules or the world's setup without asking me about them is cheating.

But in this particular case (= Imoen's case), you have my permission to change her to a bard if you want provided that you erase all of her known spells and consider all of the legal requirements regarding a bard's stats.

[geh4th]

That's better than what I'd thought. I found in the ToB manual that it says that you have to reach a certain level (example Fighter-20 and Mage-18). I was afraid that this meant that a multiclass had to have reached the appropriate threshhold in each level to get any HLA at all (in other words, probably 6-7 million XP.)

What's the rationale for Multiclassed characters having to wait later to get HLA's? Isn't that sort of unfair, and an obvious advantage for a single class or dual classed character? I'd have thought it should be based on total experience, everyone getting HLA's more or less at the same time.

It makes me wonder if a multiclass PC can be competetive with any single/dual at high levels. I admit though, I'm not all that experienced with groups reaching high level (it's been quite a while for vanilla, and I haven't got that far in IA.)

G-

[Sikret]

What's the rationale for Multiclassed characters having to wait later to get HLA's?

The rationale is that HLAs (= High Level Abilities) are abilities characters begin to learn because of their high levels. Multi-class characters need more xp to reach high levels. For them, high xp doesn't correspond with high level exactly in the way it does for single class characters.

[geh4th]

Regarding the Imoen-to-Bard idea, thanks for the permission but I'm probably going to shelve it for now. I'll keep it as an option, but I've gone back to playing my Vagrant group and in THAT group she's gonna stay a sorceress.

This was all just an exercise in exploring player party balancing anyhow. My point was that if you're playing a Mage or (especially) a Sorcerer Protagonist, do you necessarily want or need Imoen to also be a sorceress? In some people's mind, the answer would likely be "no".

My reference to "Sikret had done it" was really intended to point out that it *seemed* like you wanted a non-mod sorcerer in the game (seeing as vanilla SoA doesn't have one and IA really NEEDS one) and figured Imoen was the best candidate for the job. I'm sure there was other factors involved as well in your actions and methods. I don't presume to know exactly why you do things as a designer.

I had a Skald in my Vagrant's party for all of the pre-spellhold time period, but had always intended that this slot go to Imoen once I get to spellhold. I didn't make a sorcerer NPC because I wanted to see what a Skald could do.

While I found him useful in the early game, I could see where it was going later: he wouldn't be very good as I moved on to higher-level situations. I'd have to say that I'm disappointed in Bards (as many have already pointed out.) The main problem with them is that they're not really good at anything, and in IA everyone has to have their defined role. You can't really afford to leave one member of the party basically out of action just to sing in many of the battles...while as a spellcaster he's not as good as any mage/sorcerer and as a fighter he can't keep up thanks to a lack of multiple attacks. Really the only things going for the class are UAI and that cool armor that they can get. Skald song (and later Enhanced Bard Song) are nice, but does it really make up for not having another fighter swinging 4-6 times per round or another mage with REAL spellcasting ability?

Some have elaborated on the advantages of a Blade over a Skald, as a "tank". I see their point, but I still can't see a justification for why a blade is better than other pure and multi-classed options. Sure, he can buff and then defensive spin, but that is again one less person swinging a weapon or one less person casting useful spells. I prefer my people to be doing more 'assertive' things in combat.

IMO Bards and their kits are already a weak class. I've read the debates on the plan to limit them to 5th level spells. I'd have to say that makes a weak class useless in my opinion, but as Sikret points out, it's his game and his vision of how things should be. Since I'm actually having trouble justifying a bard for one of my 6 precious PC slots NOW, you can bet that I won't find them any better being further limited. Of course, that is MY choice.

[geh4th]

What's the rationale for Multiclassed characters having to wait later to get HLA's?

The rationale is that HLAs (= High Level Abilities) are abilities characters begin to learn because of their high levels. Multi-class characters need more xp to reach high levels. For them, high xp doesn't correspond with high level exactly in the way it does for single class characters.

Well, I can buy that easy enough.

It just seems like that puts multiclassed characters at a 1.5 million XP disadvantage. It's kind of like someone failing a grade in school - you're always behind the curve once that happens.

[geh4th]

Vagrant party update:

I backed up a little, I reloaded my 'before-going-to-spellhold' file and decided to do a bit more before leaving. I'd like to get Phosphorus forged before that trip. I've already got almost all I need for it.

I went off to kill the Shadow Dragon, which I found rather easy. I consider it to be a good thing that Sikret had mentioned that he's upgraded the fight. Does the dragon still level-drain and/or use a breath weapon? I never saw any such thing (my party isn't complaining, but it made me wonder.)

I also took down Firekraag, basically the same situation. Again, I found him easy (maybe even easier) and again, no breath weapon. I guess he had better things to do than to try to broil me. I did have fire protection on the whole party though, and he never got around to doing the dreaded 'remove magic' on everyone.

It strikes me that both dragons could use a lot more hit points and be more agressive with their breath weapons. It's kind of odd that I'm more scared of the typical human mage than a dragon.

My protagonist is still more than 200,000 XP from 15th level, and I know how much XP I got in my aborted first run through Brynnlaw. I'm looking for a bit more gold and one more permanency scroll, so I'll still mess around a few more days before leaving. I've just got to figure out who might be likely to have one of the darned things...

G-

[Sikret]

Check my "Started a v5 game" topic to see which battles I have found easier than intended and have improved them further. All dragons are in the list.

[Marceror]

What's the rationale for Multiclassed characters having to wait later to get HLA's?

The rationale is that HLAs (= High Level Abilities) are abilities characters begin to learn because of their high levels. Multi-class characters need more xp to reach high levels. For them, high xp doesn't correspond with high level exactly in the way it does for single class characters.

Well, I can buy that easy enough.

It just seems like that puts multiclassed characters at a 1.5 million XP disadvantage. It's kind of like someone failing a grade in school - you're always behind the curve once that happens.

Well that seems appropriate actually. Those who choose to have 2 or 3 majors in college generally take longer to graduate. But in this case, this is a college that these guys are enrolled in over the course of their adventuring lifetime. I always thought it odd that a MC warrior-mage could learn the specialized moves of a truly expert warrior, before he/she was a truly expert warrior herself.

[geh4th]

@ Sikret:

I knew you're improving dragons, I've read most of that thread and read your v6 progress thread regularly. I just found it amusing/ironic that plain ol' mages are more scary, as I commented.

I assume that they DO have their breath weapons, but due to situation/scripting/whatever, they just never got around to using them on me. Would that be accurate?



@Marceror:

You make a very good point when you phrase it that way.

This post has been edited by geh4th: Aug 8 2008, 06:28 PM

[Sikret]

I assume that they DO have their breath weapons, but due to situation/scripting/whatever, they just never got around to using them on me. Would that be accurate?

Yes, your characters were probably buffed and immune and they didn't find valid targets and thus gave priority to removing your protections first. They also certainly have actions with higher priority (than using their breath weapons) to perform (such as renewing their own defences, casting their powerful offensive spells, etc).

I also forgot to mention that following the idea of HLAs relating to high levels (rather than high xp) to its natural consequences and its full calibre, triple-class characters will need even more xp than double-class characters to start gaining HLAs in IA v6.

[geh4th]

They did indeed spend a lot of effort in dispelling my protections and renewing theirs (which I was dispelling as fast as they put them up.)

It's amazing how much easier it becomes to do that once your mages hit that magical 14th level...