Nalia & Imoen Options

[Clown]

Personally I've always missed the chance to keep imoen as a rogue, I really liked BG1 immy and tended not to dual class her. So would like to get her as lvl 9/ 10 thief or swashy(she's too nice for backstabbing really). This then opens up the possibility of a pure class rogue through the game or using immy pretty much as usual by dualing her straight off.

As for Nalia she needs the thieving skills dialogue wise so I'd keep her as she is, perhaps a couple of extra thief levels, to make her more viable as your only thief, if your feeling generous.

This post has been edited by Clown: Jul 3 2007, 09:19 PM

[sturmvogel]

I refuse to suffer any penalties when adding in a new NPC and will always even up the NPC's XP with my PC's. This has the great result that I can select spells/weapon proficiencies as I prefer. Can this be automated via script? If so that would alleviate many people's concerns about new NPCs in mid-game.

I will always prefer to have a sorceror in my party and would have no problems with Immy being transformed by Irenicus into a sorceror (player's choice). A few lines of dialog might be in order to explain the change. Maybe something along the lines of "Look at this, <charname>, somehow I can now throw spells without a spell book!"

I'd take Nalia along in my party if her trap finding and lock-picking were on the order of Immy's since that's all I ask a thief to do. That would allow me to ignore Yoshi in favor of Valygar or some other melee-type from almost the beginning of the game.

[Arkain]

Sorcerers:
While some reasons are given why they have their power to cast arcane spells (heritage, that is) I think they don't really "learn" it.
To me it appears more to be some sort of "weave manipulation". What I mean is that they manipulate that magical weave thingy in such a way that a spell similar to the one wizards can cast is created (cast). Who says a sorcerer's fireball is orange or red? Why not white or violet or whatever? This idea of using pure arcane power instead of copying some magical words and gestures written on a piece of paper is a reason why I - as a DM - would always allow my players' sorcerers to learn "Iceball" (or whatever name you want) as well as "Fireball" - it's almost the same, just a little bit different in terms of manipulating the magical energies. Of course wizards could research such a spell

Nalia and Imoen + my opinion:
Nalia sucks. 'nuff said. She's annoying as hell and a crappy thief on top of that. I redistributed her thief points myself until I kicked her out in the asylum to get Imoen - not only because she is the better thief but because she has more (right? ) and better dialogues. Of course Nalia has her new signet ring... but both of them weren't planned as a permanent member for ToB anyway
From a power gamer's point of view there's no reason to get Imoen instead of Nalia though... because of Nalia's ring. So I would agree to have Imoen as a sorceress and Nalia with redistributed thieving points. But there are some things you might want to think about:

1. Make this an optional component. Not everyone would like this change - and those wouldn't be forced to accept it.
2. Make Imoen a low level sorceress with her basic experience points she has got normally. This way players can choose most spell as they level her up. It's similar with Kelsey and Tashia: they have a start level and from then on only gain experience and no more levels, allowing for individual spell picks.
3. Change Imoen's paperdoll to a mage please

[Marceror]

I've been reading up on this topic and the more I think about the idea of changing Imoen to a sorcerer the more I like it (I was admittedly somewhat resistant at first - call me old an crotchety).

It would be kind of cool if she could receive some sort of personalized kit (not sure if sorcerers can be kitted) that allows her access to some of her thievely weapon options and/or some of her thieving skills. Perhaps her kit could be called "Daughter of Bhaal" and have a few "darker" aspects associated with it. But since I've never heard of a sorcerer kit, I'm going to guess that this isn't possible.

From a dialogue standpoint there is a fair amount of Imoen minimizing the impact of her losing her Bhaal essence as compared to the protagonist, which might make this change not totally make sense, but I guess it's something that most veteran players should be able to overlook. If some dialogues could be added to account for Imoen's new discovery of magic, then all the better.

Another crazy thought is to keep Imoen as a thief/mage, but give her a mage kit that gives her access to certain divine spells in her spell book (to play up the divine connection in her). You could be creative with the spell selection to make it appropriate for the God of Murder, but some harm/inflict spells might be cool, and perhaps some cure/heal spells, to really make Imoen unique. And perhaps, in support of the "sorcerer" concept, maybe give her access to a few mage spells as innate abilities that she gains as she grows in power.

And just to make it not too overpowered, perhaps reduce some of her physical stats (represents losing part of herself when the divine essence is taken). This loss is so significant that even when Imoen regains her Bhaal essence, she doesn't regain these stats. I think there is an opportunity to do something really creative and unique here, which might end up cooler than even the sorcerer idea. Just another idea to throw out there, incase anyone (Sikret) likes it.

This post has been edited by Marceror: Jul 3 2007, 10:02 PM

[Roy]

Usually I don't even take Imoen or Nalia.As they are Thief/Mage they are
not the most usful NPCs.

As for sorcerers since I install tons of NPC mods for variety I can use
Kelsey or Tashia or Xan(he as a F/M or sorcerer).

Thief dual classed to mage is not one of the most usful classes
with thieves being used mostly for traps and lock picking
so I sometimes take F/M/T or change someone with SK to F/T.
Jan was one of my favorite NPCs but I don't take him to IA games.

Changing Imoen to sorcerer because of the experiments is a cool idea.
A special kit with thieving skills will be great as it will save a
slot on a thief.

[Romulas]

I vote for immy to be a sorceress, straight and true and to be a comparable level to benefit the party, not so under powered as to take along time to even up with the party.

Also, there is the original story line where yoshimo is suppose to be in the party, he betrays the pc and dies, then imoen slides into his slot. Well, if you have to kick someone out in spellhold to make room for imoen then they are stuck in spell hold, going back to the copper coronet is not an option. I have the tweak installed to allow the cast out person to remain. Every other time I cast someone out there are always two options, stay here or meet at the copper coronet.

If this could be fixed/changed it would be great, currently poor valygar is stuck in spellhold.

Romulas

[Marceror]

Oh sure, leave the guy with the greatest phobia about magic in a place where magical deviants run rampant! Real nice!

[Ryel ril Ers]

I vote for Imoen as a sorcerer one condition. Pick for her the knock, invisible, skull trap and find trap spell and change the knock to disarm trap or also pick the mirror image, reflected image, blur for her. If she has this spell she doesn't need the thief class and she and Nalia will be rival.

[thetruth]

In general, I agree that Nalia's dialogues make it more difficult to change her class to a sorceress (compared to Imoen) considering things she says about picking locks to sneak out of the keep and other things.

There are more dialogues, compared to Nalia's, that refer to Imoen's thieving skills.
Also Sarevok calls Nalia "Sorceress" in one dialogue.

IMO it is not a good idea at all to make Imoen a Sorcerer.
Imoen is the most important NPC of the game (sister of the PC) and the fact that you are with her from the very beginning of the BG saga and you always knew her as a thief makes it very difficult to see her suddenly as a Sorcerer.

Besides the Thief class fits much more to Imoen's personality (even if dualled to Mage later).

On the other hand I don't have any problems with Nalia as a Sorcerer or with a redistribution of her thieving skills.

This post has been edited by thetruth: Jul 8 2007, 06:44 PM

[Stu]

Imoen is the most important NPC of the game (sister of the PC) and the fact that you are with her from the very beginning of the BG saga and you always knew her as a thief makes it very difficult to see her suddenly as a Sorcerer.

I was pretty annoyed that the game designers suddenly dualled to a mage - I certainly didn't in my BG1 run through. So yeah despite having never using her after spellhold I can see where you're coming from.

How about Immy as a thief with the ability to dual (at the players discretion) to a sorcerer (or any other class for that matter)

[Shaitan]

If it isn't to late I'll say keep Nalia as a thief/mage but do with Immy what you like...

[Sikret]

Nalia will remain a theif-mage for sure. I've decided not to change her to a sorceress. What I have not decided over yet are the following:

1- Whether to increase Nalia's level in thief class or just cling to re-distributing her skills without changing the level.

2- Whether to change Imoen to a sorceress or not.

Without changing Imoen's class we will have two identical NPCs in the game which is not good. With changing her into a sorcerer, we may have some dialogue inconsistencies (which are not my main concern) and (more importantly) will lose one thief NPC in the game. It's not easy to decide. Nonetheless, I'm still leaned towards changing her.

[muddymissfit]

With changing her into a sorcerer, we may have some dialogue inconsistencies (which are not my main concern) and (more importantly) will lose one thief NPC in the game.

considering the actual role of thieves in game - is this a bad thing?

people playing IA probably have every trap location burned into memory by now , so unless your planning on putting nasty surprises about ,setting traps and trap finding is considerably less of a factor in terms of a must have npc function

a sorc. will be considerably more useful than another thief NPC imo.

[Exor]

I vote for Immy to become a Thief/Wildmage and Nalia to be a better Locks/Disarmer

-After Ritual
"It seems Irenicus Ritual, caused -apart from removing my soul- a serious disturbance in my magic skills"
- Imoen gains Wildmage penalty "5% chance of Wild surge"

-After some time
"Hey, look what I can do!"
OR
-Fighting/Meeting a crazy Wildmage in spellhold
"You know I think I can try the same thing as that mage guy just now"

-Imoen gains Nahals Reckless Dweomer

-After experiencing a Wild Surge
"Woah that's frickin dangerous, I better prepare a bit before doing that again."
-Imoen gains wildsurge thingy shields

-After regaining Imoens Soul
"Woah now that whole casting thing goes a lot easier"
-Imoen gains +10 on Wildmagic rolls


Why Wildmage?
I think it fits her personality... a bit unresponsible, positive thinking (wildmages have to think very positive^^), not very obedient to rules

This post has been edited by Exor: Jul 9 2007, 11:14 AM

[Shaitan]

1- Whether to increase Nalia's level in thief class or just cling to re-distributing her skills without changing the level.

There's a mod out there making Nallys thiefskills high enough to actually pick the locks in her fathers keep, that will be a wise thing to do also. Otherwise you can make her somewhat of a swashbuckler?

I think there's some clues in BG1 wich points to Imoen being a sorcerer. This has not decreased with the BG1 NPC Projekt. Making her a sorcerer on the other hand increases the need for these skills in Irenicus dungeon, but this is still perfectly doable.

[Raven]

Making her a sorcerer on the other hand increases the need for these skills in Irenicus dungeon, but this is still perfectly doable.

Shaitan, Sikret is proposing to have Imoen's class changed when you rescue her from spellhold, not at the beginning of the game.

[rbeverjr]

I still agree that it was not a good idea for Bioware to provide 2 mage-thief dual NPCs. There is certainly reason to institute a change if so desired.

My original proposal was for Nalia to be a sorcerer and Imoen to be a swashbuckler. While both girls have story background as thieves, I personally think keeping Imoen as a thief is the option that is more coherent with the entire story of BG. However, Sikret has decided that Nalia is to remain thief-mage. Therefore, I would suggest giving Nalia a few more thief levels so that she can at least reliably find/disarm traps and open locks. I think that she needs more thief levels than she has, but more than 11 would be unnecessary. That way if a player wants a mage but also wants to be able to handle the traps/locks, then Nalia will fill the bill on both accounts.

I think Exor’s proposal of Imoen as a thief-wild mage is an interesting idea. Because of cheese/bugs, a high level wild mage is far superior to any other class (even sorcerer) in the regular game. The wild mage is not the best class in IA, for sure (fighter-mage types still win out there). In fact, I’m not sure that the wild mage remains superior to the sorcerer in IA - maybe. Still, it’s an interesting proposal, and I can see that a wild mage may fit Imoen’s personality.

Although I think it is a little strange for a thief-mage to become transformed to a sorcerer, perhaps having your soul ripped out could have strange consequences??? Any way, I wouldn’t object to her becoming a sorcerer. In that case, I would probably use an NPC mage until I picked her up. As it is, I don’t use Imoen at all in IA.

[lroumen]

After having played IA version 2 or something along those lines I'm very much interested in playing it again this summer. Since I'm planning to take Nalia along for the run here are my thoughts on the matter.

Currently (if all is correct) the Nalia stats are:
Open Locks: 60 %
Find Traps: 80 %
Pick Pockets: 35 %
Move silently: 20 %
Hide in Shadows: 15 %
Detect Illusion: 0 %
Set TRaps: 5 %
Backstab Multiplier: 2x

Personally I think her Find Traps value is quite enough. With either the Ring of Danger Sense (+25%) and later the upgraded version (Ring of Burglary), she'll have it topped out at 105%, which would be more than enough.
Her Pick Locks may be improved slightly since with the Ring of Lockpicks/ Ring of Burglary it will maximize at 85%. It's not that bad, but I would maybe improve it slightly to allow it to reach maybe 95% when using the ring?
There is of course a ring slot conflict until you can forge the Ring of Burglary, but I always found that that added a nice touch to it.


I don't know why she would need the points in pick pockets, since she's Nobility and with her personality she would refrain from such actions.... I think this would be the source of point deduction if another one is to be raised.

Finally, since she had some help from her servants with sneaking in and out of the keep, I see no justification in either having to drastically adjust her 'hide in shadows' or 'move silently'. Maybe a 5% here or there so that she might have some decent values when using other gear like the boots of stealth or such.

I think the final stats could be nicely adjusted to without having to raise her thief levels:
Open Locks: 60 % -> 70%
Find Traps: 80 %
Pick Pockets: 35 % -> 15%
Move silently: 20 % -> 25%
Hide in Shadows: 15 % -> 20%
Detect Illusion: 0 %
Set TRaps: 5 %
Backstab Multiplier: 2x


EDIT1: I recall that the keep trap levels are all 70- except for 2... but you can imagine that those were installed there by the current inhabitants.

EDIT2: I definately enjoy the thought of Imoen as a Wild Mage. That would be a very interesting change.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jul 9 2007, 03:04 PM

[Sikret]

Welcome to the forum, Iroumen!

Nalia's pick pocket ability cannot be lowered more than 10%. What remains is the base pick pocket skill of a 1st level thief.

[lroumen]

Thank you.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.