Demon Lord vs Judgement Day (Spoilers) Options

[thetruth]

That's why smart mages have spell immunity abjuration and perhaps also SI divination ready - could be a buff or part of a contingency/chain/trigger. It seems that Alesa-BH is a caster that is not easily defeated.

Yes but tough enemy spell-casters have at least the means to dispel such protections.

Dragons,Liches and other tough enemies (from mods) for example have Ruby Ray and SI: Divination is useless against them.

Easily? - Of course not.Never said that. But (at least potentially) they have the spells to deal with the protections of a F/M. Something that is not true for a high level Morituri (except if someone scripts them to cast Breach on him).

And SI doesn't enter in a Contigency/Trigger btw.

That said I don't ignore the fact that an Arcane spell caster (Wild Mages/Sorcerers mostly) can become invincible with some tactics/spells (cheesy or not).
And I repeat that I do consider the F/M overpowered.

Fortunately Sikret in the 4th version of IA has changed a lot of things regarding Arcane magic cheese.

Of course, but I could put it back up or enjoy a free round of offense while you work on that... In high level battles on table top, the first action (let alone the first round of actions) can make the difference in the battle.

It's not so simple as it seems rbeverjr.
Just be sure to read carefully the Readmes before playing with IA4

Still, the battle costs a lot of resources and even real time to beat them down. ........
I expect to have to reload sometimes simply because I play when I'm too tired to think. But this was nothing more than a puzzle.

You know this is why I like so much mods like IA.

I don't find frustrating at all the fact that you have to spend much time (reloads) if you want to win a difficult battle (OK probably the problem is mine - call me crazy ).
But I like these mods for this kind of challenge they offer.

[rbeverjr]

I don't find frustrating at all the fact that you have to spend much time (reloads) if you want to win a difficult battle (OK probably the problem is mine - call me crazy ). But I like these mods for this kind of challenge they offer.

You're crazy. (just joking). I'm sure there are other people like you. But if you will take a clue from the games marketed by Bioware, you can see that you are in the minority. For instance, NWN2 was toooo easy. Most people are NOT looking for this much challenge. I want more of a challenge than the stock game, but less of a challenge than the Demon/Death lord battle. This challenge came about mostly because they had abilities that were too deadly (Soul Reaver attacks), and an overall defense that was more impressive than any morituri! Obviously, the battle can be won. But under DnD 2 rules, the most likely way you will win is metagaming (using player knowledge rather than character knowledge). - Darn that didn't work. Reload. Reload again. Reload again. Oh Hades, let's take a look at what's special about the opposition. Oh, that's why my tactics are failing. Fine. Reload. Womp! 'Bout dang time....

I would bet on a fighter-mage or pure arcane winning the battle against a morituri as I have previously detailed. If the scripters are targeting fighter-mages but not morituri with defense strippers, then the fighter-mages are still serving a purpose on the team by occupying the foes “attacks.” Hopefully, they are not free actions by the foes!

I like DnD 3.5 where there seems to be a better balance in the classes. Fighters are generally more valuable at lower levels than other classes, while mages are probably the most dominant class at high levels. Still, each class can be valuable at any level. The mage has been the most dominant high level class in every edition of DnD. (Some people may argue the cleric’s case, who is very powerful. But I’ve seen mages dominate the battle field alone.) I think this trend should be respected by modifiers. Limit arcane cheese without limiting their position as a dominant force. Please Sikret, don’t reduce mages to a summoner and defense stripper. (This comment is based mostly on the repeated remarks that I have read saying that mages have become much less effective –ineffective?- in the modified game, rather than personal experience; so take it with a grain of salt 

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Feb 27 2007, 07:05 PM

[Sikret]

1- Playing a mage/sorcerer is still one of the two most recommended options for IA v4. Playing either with a ranger or with a mage, you will see more new things during the game. Mages are still very powerful; I have just modified and nerfed some cheesy arcane tactics. A solo characater cannot win IA v4, no matter what his/her class is. Mages and sorcerers now do not rule, they need to cooperate wit other classes as much as other classes need to cooperate with them.

2- Tactical puzzles are undroppable parts of Improved Anvil for players who are looking for more challenge in the game. They are for players who want them, have asked me to add and to keep them and want to spare time to think and find the right tactics to win them (and eventually feel the satisfaction of finding the right tactics). Other players who don't want such tactical puzzles can always bypass those difficult and optional battles during the game.

@Romulas
To add to my previous reply to you, I am currently thinking of making the second stage of JD plot a prerequisite for the new "Epic Divine Encounter" feature of the mod. I should think more about it, but if I implement it, then the battle with Demon Prince at 2nd stage of Jd plot will have an additional purpose: Only players who win that battle can see the epic divine encounter. I will let you know the final decision I will make about this issue.

[Romulas]

@Sikret

With the purpose behind the battle I can understand better, with the current judgement day end battle so to speak it just didn't seem plausible from a role playing point of view.

I think the biggest part of trying to adapt to the new ia and its methods is changing the way I play my mages or sorcerers. In previous versions I played them as battle mages, and especially at the higher levels many times they would engage the enemy quickly. Now that they are relegated to a supporting role much of the tactics have been removed. Let me elaborate some.

Now, if a high level fighter with a good armor class and saving throws can withstand the first 5 to 10 rounds of battle with the super casters (those that fire 10 spells when the encounter starts) then the battle is his for the most part. In my opinion the game has now become a hack and slash type of game, and for some that is enough. I am not knocking anyone for liking this type of game.

I played the battle with the demon lord twice, with two different parties. The first party with a sorcerer and that party eventually won, the sorcerer was mainly a summoner because when he got within sight to cast protection removeal spells he got tee'd off on. The second party was strong on fighting and weak on magic, in fact the magic-users and thief stayed in the tower while my two high level fighters eventually won the battle, merely hack and slash. I believe that the second party had the easier time, the key here was surviving till the spells worn off the death lords.

In the first part of the game it is helpful to have lots of missile firing party members, but at the higher levels this is almost a waste as the greatest missile weapon (ones readily available) is only +3, and many of the monsters are either immune to missile weapons or have a high resistence.

I think one of the cheesies things I have seen so far is a monster that can only be hit be a certain plus weapon, hence he is immune to normal weapons then putting protection from magic weapons on him makes him invincible for 4 rounds (successive contingencies extend this).

There used to be a rule stating that a character could not have protection from normal weapons AND magical weapons on at the same time, hence not allowing the character to be invulnerable for a time. The spirit of this requirement was to keep things balanced. Now, fighting Lavok I can assure you balance was not the case, with his protection from magic weapons and natureal resistence to non-magical weapons. I emptied my quivers on that boy and he grunted.

It just seems that much has been removed from the game in the spirit of trying to make it better. For instance, the battle with the demon lord and even more so the demon prince was 10 times harder then the battle with demogorgon. And this is the demon prince that Helm personally had to imprison. In many ways it seems to lessen the story line of the original game.

This is of course all my own opinion, but this is why we discuss these things.

I think I will restart yet again and this time have a fighter, thief, and fighter/mage for my pc. See how it goes with just 3.

Romulas

[rbeverjr]

I think I will restart yet again and this time have a fighter, thief, and fighter/mage for my pc. See how it goes with just 3.
Romulas

I hope you are a better player than I am Romulas. I actually agree with thetruth that FM (as well as the FMT and M in general) can be overpowered. I also agree that the morituri is one of the most powerful fighting classes, even though I would probably prefer the kensai in the normal game at levels less than 28 or so. And everyone knows that the ranger-cleric can also be overpowered. Etc. I'll play with 4 in SoA and 5 in ToB. Hopefully, I will find even the tough matches easier with these characters. And if I find things too easy, I can crank up the difficulty and/or place strictures on what I do with the mages.

I also agree with you concerning your demogorgon complaint. I put it another way before. Simply, I want tougher boss fights. If everything is tougher including every little sidequest it really makes the boss fights less memorable.

[Sikret]

@Romulas

1- Lavok is not immune to normal weapons.

2- The fact that Demogorgon is MUCH weaker than the other demon lords in the game can be solved by improving him. I am currently working on the "Improved Demogorgon" feature of the mod. However, it doesn't mean that demogorgon should be necessarily the most powerful foe in the game. He won't be! He may still be weaker than the Demon Prince in JD plot but not "much" weaker as he currently is. And, both Demogorgon (even after being improved) and the Demon prince in JD plot will still be certainly weaker than the main personage you will meet in the new "Epic Divine Encounter" feature of the mod. The fact that Helm had imprisoned demogorogn doesn't entail that demogorgon is the toughest evil. There may be for many other reasons that Helm did conflict with Demogorgon but not with others who may be even more powerful than demogorgon.

3- The hack and slash complaint doesn't also seem entirely true to me. One of the IA v4 testers started his game with a mageless party (he only had Jan in the party) and faced too many problems during the game. Having a powerful mage is still a must. However, what I did in IA v4 ensures that mages cannot win the game without cooperation with other classes and I believe that this is a very good and positive change.

[rbeverjr]

However, it doesn't mean that demogorgon should be necessarily the most powerful foe in the game. He won't be! He may still be weaker than the Demon Prince in JD plot but not "much" weaker as he currently is.

In DnD, there is no demon more powerful than Demogorgon, Lord of All Demons.

[Sikret]

@Romulas

Also, note that JD sword has a background and story, which you can read in its description. Hence, the confrontation with the Demon prince in the 2nd stage of JD plot is indispensable. Moreover, he must be more powerful than his own messanger.

@rbeverjr

Even in pnp AD&D, DMs can add any kind of new personage to the game if they want to. What you read in Monster Manual and other books are just general hints and guidelines. If a player doesn't like the way a DM governs the game, he/she can leave the table, of course.

[rbeverjr]

Even in pnp AD&D, DMs can add any kind of new personage to the game if they want to. What you read in Monster Manual and other books are just general hints and guidelines. If a player doesn't like the way a DM governs the game, he/she can leave the table, of course.

You are so right. They can leave. Often DMs create their own world and sometimes they create their own diety system. I just think it is wrong to include Demogorgon and him not be lord of the demons. However, this alone will not keep me from playing Improved Anvil.

[thetruth]

And lets not forget that you can't actually kill Demogorgon in BG2.
When you defeat him you just "send" him back to Hell.

It would be too unrealistic if a mortal could kill the Prince of the Demons.

[Sikret]

And lets not forget that you can't actually kill Demogorgon in BG2.
When you defeat him you just "send" him back to Hell.

It would be too unrealistic if a mortal could kill the Prince of the Demons.

Yep, it's the same for the new demon lords added to the game by IA. When you kill the demon lord in the first stage of JD plot and collect a vial of his blood. You read this in the item's description:

This is a vial of blood taken from the corporeal body of a Demon Lord.

Which indicates that you have only destroyed his corporeal body in prime material plane and have sent him back to abyss.

[Romulas]

@Romulas

1- Lavok is not immune to normal weapons.

Ah, as I am filling him with arrows and I remember right in the battle message windows it says that a spell has failed but there was no damage associated with it. At least not during the beginning and middle of the battle.

When I get there with my new party I will take better notes and let you know. Those messages fly by so fast it is easy to miss something.

Romulas

[Romulas]

@rbeverjr

"I hope you are a better player than I am Romulas."

I seriously doubt that, I did forget however that it is difficult to survive starting out with 3 or 6 at the level the games puts you at. I installed the enhanced encounter part of the thief stronghold and can easily get waxed at night. It seems that starting at level 10 versus level 8 really helps ones surviveability, even with 3 characters.

I was just thinking that since I generally only survive the big IA battles with 2 or 3 left I might as well start out with 3 and see how that goes.

Romulas

[darkjeshush]

What in the...

I am getting owned too, HALP MEH! The first fight with demon + 2 lords is easy enough fully buffed, fully summoned, but second part you cant buff or summon. Does anybody know which enemies spawn what? or if those marileth+lord+elemental golem spawns are limited? My best shot so far was to kill the first lord fast, then triple remove magic to down a noble marileth hoping and praying those had similar functionality to master assassins and coordinators. But after they died, the spawns kept on coming. Within 15 more rounds or so, the screen was filled with enemies. So I guess the prince himself is the focal spawn point, like a grandfather assassin on crack.

I then tried to go 5-alpha on the prince, and he is so hard to hit (with massive regen too I think), and that turned out to be epic fail as well. Got him to barely injured and screen was full of spawns. I sit one greater resto guy somewhere off in the distance summoning fodder and sending them in one by one to die, but about 20 rounds into the fight, demon prince casts "destroy mortals" or something like that and disrupted a greater resto, instantly killing half my team. GG.

I don't want to cheese it, ie. run to that pier in the back and spam wishes and greater restos, with infinite hardiness on frontliners. Even if I did cheese, I suspect I would still lose. Pfmw goes a long way here, but the enemies just retarget something that I cant pfmw, even from half a screen away. Do I need to be level 40 across the board? There's no way I can do that. I have alot of multiclasses.

[darkjeshush]

Meh, nvm got it. This fight is all about the pfmw and absolute immunity scrolls you've accumulated throughout the game. GG.