Profanity in mods, [split by Baronius; Domi's request] Options

[Sorrow]

(by the way, where will you make it end. It doens't take the PC too long to become so powerful that he might be able to rape anyone he wants - are you going to include additional options for every female in the game then, from peasants to NPCs?)

So, if male is raped by a woman or other male it isn't rape?

I think stealing, hurting, and killing innocents, looting tombs and betraying people who trust is enough for <CHARNAME> to act out her feelings of ill mindedness without the need of diving into the deep, dark area of sexual harassement. The latter is much too real to be included into this fantasy game, thank you very much.

I think that the deep, dark area of sexual harassement is more interesting than gutting people and smashing their heads and being stabbed and slashed with sharp objects if one looks at it from a right perspective.
Of course having PC succesfully raped or harassed is bad, but having PC succesfully rape someone is good (Kali's morality in working ).

Also, I find topic of murder, thievery and having trust betrayed as real as rape and frankly, I would prefer to play game where PC is rapist than to play a game where PC is attacked by assasins and other unkind people that want to hurt her.
The latter is much too real to be included into this fantasy game .

The thing is, that evil deeds have ridiculously little psycological consequence in Baldur's Gate. I was walking around, my reputation 5, SHar-Teel scowling from behind my back, and nobody cared that I killed out of spite from time to time; nobody accused me of killing/raping/mutilating their mother/father/brother whatever and brought the guard, or called for the city to burn me. Duke does not know about your bad fame, you are scolded and jailed for killing Rieltar, when you should have probably be called to justice way before that...

That part of the game sucks. Sometimes I think that they made this game for feeblehearted goody-goodies.
Abominable lack of psychological realism made me hate that game.
I liked Fallout 2 a lot more, because it was a lot harder to become a shining goody goody from frenzied berzerker childkiller.

What annoys me when I try to play an evil NPC - but if he makes Beregost he's lucky, they tend to annoy me sooo fast - just because all the evil options Bioware has given are so totally devoid of meaning or purpose. Playing an evil PC eventually always means playing some contradictory, unbelievable lunatic - acting evil but constantly fulfilling good quests. Rape would only add to that immensely.
So rape, no thanx.

I disagree.
I think that adding rape would allow evil PCs an option of doing something evil without getting into the absurdal mass murderer cliche.

[jastey]

I am sorry, Jastey, but I simply don't understand how rape is the no-no, when the rest is perfectly Okay in the fantasy game.

I didn't say it's perfectly OK. I said I don't understand that Sorrow needs more morbid possibilities to act out his fantasies in the game. For me sexual harassement is something I can see in my life, getting killed for a theft is not. As Rabain said: Giving a mod all possibilities you would expect in RL is not appropriate.

We all know why Elrond rules alone, right?

No.

Or are you suggesting to assume that the "rapes do not happen" because "it is always the woman's fault" or some horrible excuse like that that was used for years and years and years to avoid the "embarassing" prosecutions?

Interpretation and assumption of what I've written is carrying you away here. No, I definitely did not suggest anything like that nonsense.

Of course having PC succesfully raped or harassed is bad, but having PC succesfully rape someone is good

This is sick, sorry.

[Domi]

You could create a mod that does that yes but to what end? You would then have to include in the mod that you are no longer welcome in Athkatla or it sphere of influence and pretty much forego the whole storyline of the game.

This kind of thing is best left to a TC of some kind and even there to be honest I think players would become bored pretty quickly with the limitations of playing evil. Yes there could be more quests for evil characters etc but no need for more "extreme" evil, it quickly becomes bogged down in it's own consequences.

Let me try to explain it this way - I have no problems with people announcing that they are going to make the bestest NPC of everyone's dreams and do not repeat everyone else's mistakes every other month. I support them in whatever they are interested to bring to the table, even if I in all honesty am bored stiff with BG2, and don't see a point of starting a new NPC to the tired BG2. Yep, that *includes* Kivan. On the other hand, other people love their NPCs, they see the point in making their mods, and there are those who'd play them.

I, myself, did start a very evil concpet I wanted to integrate into BG2 - my Midnight Visitor. I would have done it too, if I could keep myself interested.

Will the mod fly or not, one cannot tell. But I think that if we were restricting ourselves to what there already is in the game, we would be still romancing Anomen. Trying something to see if it works never hurts. If the work will end up boring, nobody will play it. If people would rather put their manhours into the development of the happy and cautious mods, fine and good.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 12 2006, 10:07 PM

[Domi]

We all know why Elrond rules alone, right? 

No.

His wife, Arwen's and her twin brother mother, had been waylaid and raped by orks. Unable to put this experience behind herself, she went to the Undying lands that have a healing effect.

[Sorrow]

Of course having PC succesfully raped or harassed is bad, but having PC succesfully rape someone is good

This is sick, sorry.

Why?

[Rabain]

You cannot have it both ways, which is essentially my argument against this kind of extremity in the game. The PC is not the most powerful being in the world in SoA, at the beginning you are apparently taken unawares by Irenicus. Forget about Irenicus raping Imoen, what happened to you while you were unconcious? If you want to rape someone in the game, learn to live with being raped too.

The option is only being entertained because as a modder you could possibly add this to the game, that does not mean you should and it would not make the game more real either. Lets create a mod where the PC has a 9-5 job and has to pay rent, tax and living costs. After that we will talk about realism as I am sure 99% of the population of Faerun work most of the day much like anyone in the real world. Carry out your rapes and murders in your spare time (if you have any) and try to avoid Johnny Law each time. That would add real realism alright.

But I think that if we were restricting ourselves to what there already is in the game, we would be still romancing Anomen.

There is a slight difference between adding something new to the game and adding the option to rape whoever you wanted. I think you would agree with this, no? It was an interesting conversation either way!

[Sorrow]

You cannot have it both ways, which is essentially my argument against this kind of extremity in the game. The PC is not the most powerful being in the world in SoA, at the beginning you are apparently taken unawares by Irenicus. Forget about Irenicus raping Imoen, what happened to you while you were unconcious? If you want to rape someone in the game, learn to live with being raped too.

I don't think it would make a big difference to PC...

But I think that anti-threefold law would apply - since world raped PC, so PC shall rape world three times.
An interesting concept - PC gets raped and gests her revenge by raping 3 random persons.

The option is only being entertained because as a modder you could possibly add this to the game, that does not mean you should and it would not make the game more real either. Lets create a mod where the PC has a 9-5 job and has to pay rent, tax and living costs. After that we will talk about realism as I am sure 99% of the population of Faerun work most of the day much like anyone in the real world. Carry out your rapes and murders in your spare time (if you have any) and try to avoid Johnny Law each time. That would add real realism alright.

How about PC being a depraved rich noble with influential parents?
Or a bandit or soldier?
There are many realistic possibilites of PC commiting crime and getting away with it.

[Domi]

You cannot have it both ways, which is essentially my argument against this kind of extremity in the game. The PC is not the most powerful being in the world in SoA, at the beginning you are apparently taken unawares by Irenicus. Forget about Irenicus raping Imoen, what happened to you while you were unconcious? If you want to rape someone in the game, learn to live with being raped too

Indeed. I will always speak against indulgence, with NPCs or PC. No Mary Sue free rides. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I have an option to tell that PC was raped by Irenicus/his cronies. I freely admit it.

In MV, if PC was not powerful enough, but was stupid enough to play with the dangerous man, he would force his opinions and desires on her, and yes, he would make her agree to sleep with him because he needed it for his plans. And you know what? I was writing those heart-wrenching hard dialogues, and people were *really* shocked when Boo was killed.

In other words, you can't know what exactly is scary. But, in my case, why I am so ardently defending the more painful content is because I, as dialogue writer, am tired of writing sweet or elevated only... and in such wast quantities. I do want to use black.

[Baronius]

Adding rape to a game might be tempting because you can try something in a game without consequences which you can't do in the real life (normally), and this is what makes games tempting. (Just like you can be a terrorist in SWAT). But it won't make BG better and more interesting. We're modders, and make content enjoyable for players (I ignore someone's comment that she makes mods only for her own entertainment -- in this case she shouldn't release them in the public and shouldn't talk about them). Some players might find it funny "Wow I raped this and that" but the majority wants new quests, new NPCs, dialogues etc., they want quality and not such low things.

And the blurb "AD&D/BG/whatever was not meant for kids" has no meaning for a real modder. It may be true, but mods look and work like we, the modders, make them. It's easy to use the quoted statement as an excuse when we want to add e.g. adult content. Additionally, regardless it is meant to be for kids or not, there are younger people who play the game, and play our mods.

Adding rape as a player option doesn't make a mod good. It's entirely okay when an external NPC such as a bandit tries to rape someone, because it's realistic and also acceptable, unlike the "player option" version. As Rabain has said, there are things that are simply not so important in the world of Faerun that they should be represented in the game. We need new and nice. This is a world about tales, legends, dragons, demons, kings & wars, let's be elegant when we decide to touch it and modify it. A real modder uses imagination, and doesn't try to alter this nice world of fantasy by adding the aforementioned option or anything similar.

[Domi]

We're modders, and make content enjoyable for players (I ignore someone's comment that she makes mods only for her own entertainment -- in this case she shouldn't release them in the public and shouldn't talk about them).

Excuse me? I worked on BG1NPC solely for my own entertainment, I did stuff for it when nobody believed that it can be done, and lots of people enjoyed the end result of my labors. Was I wrong to do it? I do it for myself, I have fun with it, then I put it up for download and let people decide if they like it or not. The best way of doing bussiness.

the majority wants new quests, new NPCs, dialogues etc., they want quality and not such low things.

And one of the repeated complaints about the new quests, new NPCs and new dialogues is that there are no adequate evil player options. It was a complaint voiced over and over and over for many, many years.

Adding rape as a player option doesn't make a mod good. It's entirely okay when an external NPC such as a bandit tries to rape someone, because it's realistic and also acceptable, unlike the "player option" version.

Because PC is by definition a lawful good paladin?

As Rabain has said, there are things that are simply not so important in the world of Faerun that they should be represented in the game. We need new and nice. This is a world about tales, legends, dragons, demons, kings & wars, let's be elegant when we decide to touch it and modify it.

Are you telling me that dragons and demons are nice? Why do you think dragons in all tales abduct young maidens then? And demons, don't they like... torture people? Or should we make them pink, fluffy and nice? The whole race of half-orks is labeled as "the product of rapes". How about Khalid's mother, one of many elves captured by humans of Calimshan, sold as sex slaves and who died of abuse? There are spells in your spellbook that make a person's blood boil, or burn them into a pile of ashes, or shot them with acid. The area where the game takes place is called Sword Coast - for a good reason too. Human life is cheap there, both to kill and to sell as a slave. And you are telling me it is a nice place? That there are no low things happening there every step of the way?

I mean, Salvatore, your 100% "for young adults", Salvatore has rape scenes in Cleric Quintet.

There is a place for the Mwa-ha-ha-ha, but I am a grandiouse villain who is going to conquer this world, destroy it and speak in elevated soliloques type of evil. But there is also a common-place, creepy, all-reaching evil, and there is no world that is devoid of it, apart from some Utopia.

A real modder uses imagination, and doesn't try to alter this nice world of fantasy by adding the aforementioned option or anything similar.

Ah, so, now we are going to divide the community on the "real" modders and not real modders? Who like should not trail mud on our white carpets? Don't know how about modders, but the advice given to a writer is always: write what you know. That means - write the real feelings, and write trying to awaken the real feelings; or at least try to. I know that as a woman from a large and dangerous city I was raised and lived in a fear of rape or an assult because I had to go home late after after-school programs. Even living in a safe community now I still have this fear. It is a real thing. While, I don't think that I have ever experienced a murder, and I don't know how it feels to go and kill living people. So I write what I know and what frightens me. Again, I don't insist that everyone *should* do that, but I would appreciate if people did not use the *real modder should not* for the reverese situation. Though, maybe I am just an unreal modder or something. Only, like worked on mods for four years and stuff.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 13 2006, 03:36 AM

[Sikret]

In my opinion, Evil creatures are of different sorts. Even among chaotic evils, you can expect different personalities.

An evil character may fight and kill his good enemy without defiling the enemy's honour. Such an evil character has goals to achieve. He may even let his enemy to write her will and may try to fulfil her last request. He may even take care of his enemy's children after killing her, because her death was needed for his goals but her children's deaths are not needed. We had such respectable evil characters in P&P AD&D. This is much different from an alternate evil character who would rape his enemy before killing her. The latter would have a dirty and cheap personality. This is not the same as being evil. There are both 'cheap' and 'great' evil personalities.

There is also one (perhaps controversial) side point which deserves consideration. Being the slave of one's own sexual desires makes it too difficult for a character to gain great powers. Power calls for discipline and self-control. I cannot imagine a very high level character whose hands and knees start trembling on seeing the opposite sex. High level characters need to have focus and self-control and avoid cheap manners, in my opinion.

As for making a mod in which an evil PC will be given opportunities to rape others and to act cheaply:

1- Such a mod will give the PC the chance to be a cheap character. The PC should also be allowed to avoid those opportunities and to aim for being a great evil character. Perhaps, each time the PC behaves cheaply some penalty to experience points should be applied, to insure that progress needs focus and discipline and a man with sexual lust is hardly a choice for becoming great in his career even as a evil character.

2- Cautions about the content of the mod need to be added during installation so that people know what they are installing and avoid it if they don't like them. I will not install such a mod for sure.

[Sorrow]

Indeed. I will always speak against indulgence, with NPCs or PC. No Mary Sue free rides. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I have an option to tell that PC was raped by Irenicus/his cronies. I freely admit it.

I would be glad if someone made a mod that shows what PC went through.
I think that the way Bioware shown it is very primitive and unsatisfying.
I think that when PC is tortured, player should feel emotional, almost physical pain, not wander "WTF?".
I remember how suggestive were torture scenes in 1984.
I think that Irenicus was doing something similiar to PC and I think it needs a good descriptions.

In MV, if PC was not powerful enough, but was stupid enough to play with the dangerous man, he would force his opinions and desires on her, and yes, he would make her agree to sleep with him because he needed it for his plans. And you know what? I was writing those heart-wrenching hard dialogues, and people were *really* shocked when Boo was killed.

Boo was killed? PC was raped?
Sounds interesting.
What mod are you speaking about?

And the blurb "AD&D/BG/whatever was not meant for kids" has no meaning for a real modder. It may be true, but mods look and work like we, the modders, make them. It's easy to use the quoted statement as an excuse when we want to add e.g. adult content. Additionally, regardless it is meant to be for kids or not, there are younger people who play the game, and play our mods.

Sorry, but to me anyone who is making mods without at least M or R content isn't a real modder.
Making fluffy, sweet mods for underaged is a waste of time.
I don't need excuses to do what I do.

As Rabain has said, there are things that are simply not so important in the world of Faerun that they should be represented in the game. We need new and nice. This is a world about tales, legends, dragons, demons, kings & wars, let's be elegant when we decide to touch it and modify it.

Nope.
They may be not important to writers, but they are there.
There's no modification of the world, because such things are already there and they are important to people affected by them.

Adding rape to a game might be tempting because you can try something in a game without consequences which you can't do in the real life (normally), and this is what makes games tempting. (Just like you can be a terrorist in SWAT). But it won't make BG better and more interesting

I think that it would make BG better and more interesting, if there would be more realistic reputation and law enforcement system.
As long as PC can avoid punishment rape is a good option of showing PCs evilness and cruelity.
And if PC isn't able to avoid it, then the punishment is a good way of showing PCs incompetence.
I don't think that such deeds shall remain without consequences, both negative and positive.
For example getting exposed as rapist isn't a good idea and may cause trouble to PC but from the other side henchpersons may think that PC is a good person, because he/she allows them to rape and pillage, which is a good thing because they risk their lives for him/her and soldiers deserve to have some fun too.

An evil character may fight and kill his good enemy without defiling the enemy's honour. Such an evil character has goals to achieve. He may even let his enemy to write her will and may try to fulfil her last request. He may even take care of his enemy's children after killing her, because her death was needed for his goals but her children's deaths are not needed. We had such respectable evil characters in P&P AD&D. This is much different from an alternate evil character who would rape his enemy before killing her. The latter would have a dirty and cheap personality. This is not the same as being evil. There are both 'cheap' and 'great' evil personalities.

There aren't respectable and cheap evil people.
Frankly, I prefer people who murder and rape because they like to murder and rape.
Peoplo who treat human life as something that can be taken merely because of their pathethic goals are worst scum of the world.
At least having pleasure from murder and utterly destroing an enemy before killing him is a sign of respect to value of life.
People who treat murder as a tool have no respect for life and therefore are more despicable thatn "low" rapists or serial murderers.

There is also one (perhaps controversial) side point which deserves consideration. Being the slave of one's own sexual desires makes it too difficult for a character to gain great powers. Power calls for discipline and self-control. I cannot imagine a very high level character whose hands and knees start trembling on seeing the opposite sex. High level characters need to have focus and self-control and avoid cheap manners, in my opinion.

I don't think that one needs to be weak to rape a defeated enemy or his/her servants.
One doesn't even need to seek a sexual fulfillment in such act.
One may rape or force victim to commit sexual act without being a slave to desire.
Such act should be commited when there's no danger present and when victim is completely defenceless and broken.
BTW. I wonder if there's magic that would cause enemies hands knees to tremble at the sight of PC?
I think that enslavement and rape of desire and will is a lot more funny than enslavement of body.

[Domi]

Boo was killed? PC was raped?
Sounds interesting.
What mod are you speaking about?

An abandoned one, the Midnight Visitor, at G3. PC did not have to be raped, she could have defeated the male in question long before it came to that, or enforced her "no" in that talk, if her willpower was sufficiently high, or she could have been extatic about bedding the man to begin with.

There is also one (perhaps controversial) side point which deserves consideration. Being the slave of one's own sexual desires makes it too difficult for a character to gain great powers. Power calls for discipline and self-control. I cannot imagine a very high level character whose hands and knees start trembling on seeing the opposite sex. High level characters need to have focus and self-control and avoid cheap manners, in my opinion.

As for making a mod in which an evil PC will be given opportunities to rape others and to act cheaply:

1- Such a mod will give the PC the chance to be a cheap character. The PC should also be allowed to avoid those opportunities and to aim for being a great evil character. Perhaps, each time the PC behaves cheaply some penalty to experience points should be applied, to insure that progress needs focus and discipline and a man with sexual lust is hardly a choice for becoming great in his career even as a evil character.

It is an interesting point, but as far as I know, raping is rarely about lust, it is about control and power. Kay's Fionavarian Tapestry -*higher* fantasy than Tolkien (if someone doubts Kay's credentials, he was retained by Tolkiien's estate after Tolkien's death to work on the literary heritage and one of the best fantasy writers today in his own right), if such thing is possible- makes a powerful use of rape as the way to drain goodness from one of the heroines; it is one of the scariest and revolting scenes in fantasy.

In Baldur's Gate PC, the situation is also unique, because by raping PC might acertain his connection to his sire, Bhaal, who concieved the Children by raping women of all races accross Faerun. So, in a way, the dark power can build up in him through such despicable acts.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 13 2006, 02:09 PM

[Sorrow]

An abandoned one, the Midnight Visitor, at G3.

Oh .

It is an interesting point, but as far as I know, raping is rarely about lust, it is about control and power.

I have to disagree here.
I think that raping is more often about lust than about power.

Kay's Fionavarian Tapestry -*higher* fantasy than Tolkien (if someone doubts Kay's credentials, he was retained by Tolkiien's estate after Tolkien's death to work on the literary heritage and one of the best fantasy writers today in his own right), if such thing is possible- makes a powerful use of rape as the way to drain goodness from one of the heroines; it is one of the scariest and revolting scenes in fantasy.

Hmm...
I have a thought .
I think that the problem of including or not including darker elements of reality is more about pure escapism vs. exploring another reality than about high fantasy vs. low fantasy.
I think that some people want to escape reality by playing fantasy games and some poeple, like me want to explore another reality.

This post has been edited by Sorrow: Jan 13 2006, 04:17 PM

[Domi]

I think that some people want to escape reality by playing fantasy games and some poeple, like me want to explore another reality.

I am not sure if I like the term "escapism" as applied to the works like Harry Potter. After all, some people would want to escape into a simple, but brutal world, say barbarian tribes. Maybe fairy tale? But, then again, the fairy tales of old are pretty grim. Sweet, soft worlds has their appeal, but there was a very interesting quote in Matrix - the first Matrix that was built was a very happy place, but it was a catastrophe; humans did not accept it as a reality, and tried to subconsciously to wake up from a dream. In other words, humans consider a "happy" world as something faux, a sham. The thing is, though, neither FR, nor the vast majority of the fantasy worlds are Harry-Potter-like.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 13 2006, 04:30 PM

[Rabain]

Can we move off the topic of rape now? I think there are those of us who don't agree with adding it to the game and those of us who do.

So long as modders clearly label their work players should at least have an idea of what they are downloading. As for the legality of adding such things to a computer game I would not know but there is surely something in law about it.

I think I can at least say that I will never download, install or advertise any mod that allows a player to assume the role of a rapist even if it is only role "playing" as part of a game.

[Domi]

I think we are already off rape into the "What is escapism?" territory?

[Rabain]

Escapism to me has two aspects, they can be separate or together.

First is when you want something to take you away from the real world for a few hours, a light entertainment to take your mind off work or whatever when you get home. This can include playing evil characters for their entertainment value.

The second is when you are severely unhappy with your current life and want to live out your fantasies any way that you can. This can either be dark fantasies that are illegal in most places or just general unhappiness about your current RL situation.

[Domi]

This can either be dark fantasies that are illegal in most places

I am not sure where you are taking the idea that dark fantasies are illegal? If you cn point me to the relevant laws, I would very much want to see them.

I can off hand remember that legislation passed in Greece (I think?) that was outlawing video games, and there are muslim countries where iirc rock music was outlawed or some weird stuff like that. Everey time such a statement was made in public on the relatively liberal minded forums there was a fury of disbelief and eye-rolling. I do remeber that there were some americain restrictions on killing children in BG or something to that extent so Dili did not show in the room with the rest of the mad mages.

But I am pretty positive that dark fantasies are not outlawed, since the laws on mind control cannot be enforced. Unless you are speaking about that episode of Star-Treck when that uhm... don't remeber her name was to undergo a foreceful mind purging procedure because it was concluded that she had a violent thought that caused lots of grief in a telepathic society.

I am absolutely sure that the depravations are not forbidden here in Canada from being put into the books, and nobody is going to arrest me for reading Martin, and day-dreaming about escaping to Westerous. Or for re-loading the game and killing a character (in my case Tazok, others may preffer Aerie or Kelsey or Korgan or whoever) again and again and again.

There are obviously areas controlled by law, such as child pronography or rl abuse of all sorts, but that has nothing to do with escapism. It is a real crime, and real people suffer because of it.

This post has been edited by Domi: Jan 13 2006, 06:59 PM

[Rabain]

I was talking about dark fantasies in your mind, not fantasies as in the fantasy genre of game, book or television.

Dark fantasy of some persons mind who thinks about rape, murder and beating people but never acts upon those thoughts either out of fear or some other factor.