New policy for the Community Prefix List, We need your feedback Options

[Baronius]

We had a discussion about the Prefix List with SConrad. He assured BWL that their intention isn't to boycott the Prefix Reservations list, and he offered a suggestion.

There are several registered prefixes which have never used to release any Infinity Engine game mod. Many prefix owners haven't informed the community that they have a mod under development. On the other hand, sometimes mod developers return to the community to release a mod for the public, which development they started earlier with a registered prefix.

It also seems to be true that many mod developers like to choose prefixes that they favour for some reason (monogram, initial mod name abbreviation etc.). I'm not really convinced that this should be an important aspect (as the problem is purely technical: identifiers, filenames shouldn't collide), but I have no right to decide this (neither the BWL Council or any department of BWL). If you believe it's an important aspect (or the opposite), please do post your opinion in this topic.

The Prefix List originally supported prefixes of any length, but since this easily leads to collisions, BWL decided to fix the length of 2 characters. I don't think this needs to be changed (especially because there are already very many two-character long registrations). On the other hand, due to the high number of prefixes (which include many apparently abandoned registrations), it's not easy for those to choose a prefix who want some typical, favoured prefix (monogram etc.) -- many variations are already registered by others, and often abandoned. To improve the situation, the best way would be to estabilish a new policy for registrations.

The new policy would assign a time limit for each registered prefix, and if no mod is released with that prefix for the specified time limit, the prefix would be moved to second list, and its place would be freed on the primary list. This means that it becomes available again for others' to register, and if someone registers it, the original owner would lose it. If no one registers it before the original owner returns, the original owner can re-register it (i.e. extend the time limit, but the added time limit would be much shorter than the base limit for prefixes). The number of such time limit extensions for prefixes which aren't used in any released mod could also be limited (for example, after all extensions are used, the prefix would remain in the second list and could be registered by anyone, and if it's not registered by anyone else and the original owner would release a mod with it, then it would return to its original owner; but these details require more examination than what I've done here).

If a mod is released with a registered prefix, it would be reasonable to allow the prefix to be valid for an unlimited time. On the other hand, it's important to deal with the situation when a single project with a prefix is released, the author leaves the community and there are no releases for years -- while the prefix is taken. In such an extreme case, I think it's enough to free the prefix for the public again, and simply designate the original (and old) project as incompatible with those mods who use the re-registered prefix (but "designation" probably wouldn't be the duty of the Prefix List maintainers).

I also have an idea about a restriction for registrations: a mod developer who registers a prefix will have to specify an Infinity Engine game where he or she intends to use the prefix. However, I am not convinced that this is necessary -- it might make things more complex, while wouldn't offer much additional advantage (most mods are for BG2 and BGTutu/EasyTutu anyway).

Assuming that the majority will support the initiative detailed above, it's important to emphasize that this requires technical changes on the management system of the Community Prefix List. As far as the implemenation changes are concerned, neither the Department of Graphics nor the Department of Mod Development of BWL has any free capacity (i.e. member who would volunteer) to my knowledge. I also don't have the time, however, someone will have to do it, if the initiative gets approved and accepted in this topic. If it's accepted, I will try to contact drake127, the developer of the current system, and ask him to extend the system. I suspect that the database scheme will have to be modified too.

Please note that the above descriptions (about new policies) are just based on quick ideas I had while writing this post, so feel free to suggest different or modified versions for them.

If you believe you have anything constructive to say (or you have any questions), please don't hesitate to send a reply to this topic!

I said to SConrad that this matter requires public discussion, and (more importantly) public approval. BWL has always taken the fact into consideration that not all mod developers (who may release public mods) are active in the message boards of the community, so the approving feedback of active forum members should not be considered as authoritative in all cases, but in this case, I think it is. The Community Prefix List has been estabilished and maintained by active IE mod developers (active in the respect of community forums as well), so making a common decision here is justified in my opinion.

[Ardanis]

Approval is given

[kulyok]

Prefixes ensure compatibility. I am pro-protected prefixes - if people start releasing mods with my prefix, and we have multiple O#Dream variables and O#(areanames), it'll be a nightmare. Even if I had only one mod released with O#, and not eight, I'd still be against that.

Not to mention that there are project prefixes - RE prefix, that is being used by all RE authors; X# prefix for BG1 NPC material. These are even more important, especially given how many people play, for example, BG1 NPC or Banter Pack. Screw these mods, and thousands of players are in trouble.

If a modder wishes to create conflicts, and uses someone else's prefix intentionally, I'd say "they are in the wrong". If they were intentionally killing my mods(using my prefixes, causing, eventually, more bug reports for me, less time for writing), I'd be - what is the word - Stalingrad?

Yes, if a prefix's been registered two years ago, and no mod's been released, it is a Bad Thing. But combinatorics tells us that there are many, many prefixes available, and it's possible to find many new ones still.

No, it is a Bad Idea to say "hey, Anne only released one mod, her nice prefix A! should be free", because Anne may be working on her own mod far away from BWL. She will read this topic two years later, after she finds out there is a conflict, and, again, somebody will catch hell.

"Please, use your own prefix. It will ensure that your variables, area names, tags and filenames are unique, and there is no conflict with other mods by other mod makers. It is important both to maintain technical compatibility and goodwill in the community" would be my reply.

[kulyok]

(Bottom line: no changes.)

[Daulmakan]

I agree with Kulyok wholeheartedly. Changing prefixes and making them available (specially for released mods!) goes directly against what I believe the Community Prefix List is supposed to be about.

Having said that, however, I wouldn't mind relinquishing my own registered prefix if too much time elapses before I release any mod (if ever).

[Ardanis]

On the other hand, it's important to deal with the situation when a single project with a prefix is released, the author leaves the community and there are no releases for years -- while the prefix is taken

I sincerely believe the "single project" here refers to small mods, not large or medium projects.

Anne may be working on her own mod far away from BWL. She will read this topic two years later, after she finds out there is a conflict, and, again, somebody will catch hell.

I think such probability is very small, especially if she develops something larger than NPC mod. And even if she does develop NPC secretly and someone else wants to use her prefix for their own NPC then what shall community get? Two incompatible NPC mods at most. The I find the chance that both authors will be greatly pissed off because of it to be even smaller.

This post has been edited by Ardanis: Aug 31 2008, 04:27 PM

[Baronius]

The point of SConrad (and the central point of my initial post) is about prefixes which never get used.

On the other hand, it's important to deal with the situation when a single project with a prefix is released, the author leaves the community and there are no releases for years -- while the prefix is taken

I really shouldn't have written "important", because it's just a rare situation. I meant a very extreme situation, when someone makes an item mod with 2 items and releases it, and then doesn't release anything for 3 years, and some large project requires that prefix (though refactoring is always possible, so it's also not an issue, but I have seen mod developers insisting on their originally used prefix just because they were afraid that renaming identifiers would break the mod).

My opinion is still the same: there is really no need to remove old prefixes as long as we have several hundreds of free variations for two-character long prefixes. However, since SConrad thinks that mod developers might want to use prefixes which they favour for some reason, BWL decided to start this public discussion about it -- IE mod development is not about what I see to be (technically) reasonable, but rather what the mod developers feel to be suitable for them.

On side note, I emphasize it again that this isn't exclusively a poll, or a place to decide whether my suggestions in the initial post should be accepted or not. Those are ideas. If you can think of better ideas and solutions, don't hesitate to share them.

[igi]

The total number of registred prefixes is barely 1/4 of the maximum (if we take a prefix as two characters), perhaps even less.

I think the potential benefit (someone can pick a prefix which they think is marginally more cool than they might otherwise pick) doesn't warrent the time or effort of making the changes to the prefix list or of tracking which prefixes have released sizable mods released against them. Also, as modding is generally a hobby, enforcing a time-limit on someone to release something 'sizable' is not a good thing.

This post has been edited by igi: Aug 31 2008, 04:48 PM

[Baronius]

I knew I would forgot to include this in the initial post. The time limit after a prefix has been registered could also be extended before it expires (before the prefix gets moved to the second list). The prefix owner would just say: "I'm still working on the mod". For example, if he or she does this every half an year, the registration is extended (and there would be no upper limit for the number of such extensions).

I think SConrad's point was practically about prefixes that get registered and never seem to be used anywhere. My proposals/ideas in the initial post and here were related to that, but now that I see that the idea isn't that popular (and it's not only me who doesn't favour it), I will let others do the brainstorming. Of course, it's possible I misinterpreted what he suggested, so hopefully he will also come here to tell what he meant or how he imagines it.

[igi]

I knew I would forgot to include this in the initial post.

It is mentionned in the first post. Regardless, I think it's an unnecessary extra hurdle for modders.

[The Bigg]

Why not base this on work being done rather than on simply stating "yes, I'm really working on RTW" once every six months? For example:
After two months from the registration, the registree must provide proof of actual work being done (for example a pre-alpha of their mod) or request an additional two-months deadline. If (in the total four months span) a convincing pre-alpha* is provided then the registration is permanent, otherwise it's re-added to the global pool. If your prefix was ever removed (due to not having shown proof as before), you must provide a convincing pre-alpha before you can register a new one.

*: The exact definition of convincing is open to debate; giving an NPC as an example, a 'convincing' pre-alpha will have a non-trivial amount of content in place. However, a NPC having only its basic joining&leaving dialogues is not convincing. Unfortunately, this places an extra burden on the shoulders of the list maintainers.

[plainab]

What kind of time frame are you talking about before you take away a mod developers rights to a certain prefix? A couple months, a year or two? Some mods can take years to work on before it ever becomes public. This is specially true if they want to release a mod that is as bug free and compatible with as many other mods as possible. By forcing a time frame to release a mod, you will be potentially causing more bugs and problems to be introduced. This is something that you wouldn't like, no one would like it in fact.

If you were to proceed with this idea, you will need to make some things clearer. You will also need to allow for the events of real life getting in the way of making a mod. One person might make a small mod relatively quickly, but a group may take years to do a large scale mod.

Here is a suggestion which may work within your ideas.

1) All EXISTING prefixes remain assigned and cannot be revoked. No matter whether there has been a mod produced or not.
2) All NEW prefixes can be given a two year reservation lease.
3) Mod developer must return any time before or within one month after their two year reservation lease has expired to give a status update, mod release announcement, or some other proof that they are still working on the mod.
4) If public release of mod has been announced their leased prefix becomes permanent.
5) If their mod is in any other status, they get two more years where steps 3 and 4 will apply.
6) Should the mod developer fail to report after one month of either the two year renewal points, the prefix will be given a pending status for one year.
7) After that one year, the prefix will be released back into the pool of available prefixes.
8) During pending status, the original mod developer can ask to retain the prefix registration. However they must provide proof of the mod they are working on. i.e. zip package of current mod files; links to current forum posts where they have asked, received help, and tried it out on their work; any other source of proof so deemed reliable by the maintainers of the prefix list.
9) Should the mod developer have retrieved their prefix from within the one year pending status, they will follow the same procedures as above except that their leases will be limited to one year and a pending status of six months.
10) One month prior to any renewal the maintainers will send an e-mail to the address on file reminding the mod developer of their upcoming prefix renewal date.

Basically under the above suggestion:
Anytime modder reports a release of their mod the prefix becomes permanent.
As long as modder reports progress they will retain their prefix.
If modder fails to report within a timely period but reports, the will retain their prefix but for shorter time periods.
If modder fails to report at all they will eventually loose their rights to the prefix.

Shortest time to loss of prefix
(2 years + fail to report) + (1 year pending + failure to report) = 3 years

Shortest time to permanent prefix status
Mod is announced < 2years from prefix reservation


But in the long run, I'm siding with Kulyok. We reserved the prefixes so that there would be no overwriting of custom files. Who knows, someone may have made a personal mod and wanted to reserve the prefix so that public mods wouldn't overwrite their custom files....

[kulyok]

This could work as a mild alternative(if you really, really insist):

0) All prefixes that are now in the list retain their OK status, and receive protected status. If modder Agony has prefix AY, it belongs to modder Agony. Forever.

(If that's too much, okay, let the protected thing be for "prefixes with released mods only". Just like SConrad's prefix EX is protected now, by the way.)

But from, say, September 20, 2008, the following happens:

1) Modder Gen arrives and says: "Hello! I'd like to register prefix GN!"
2) "Sure," moderator says, and adds "GN - Gen, 20/09/2008 - OK" to the prefix list. "But, please, when you release your mod, come here and tell us, okay?" - "Okay," Gen says.

Then:

3a) Gen completes a mod, and writes to the same thread: "Hello! I finished Gen Quest&Romance mod! Here's the mod's webpage!"
4a) "Great," moderator says, takes a look at the mod's webpage, and corrects her prefix data to "GN - Gen, 20/09/2008 - OK, protected".

OR the following happens:

3b) A year(two years?) pass, Gen(and also Vic, Roy, Beth) hasn't completed a mod, hasn't posted in the prefix thread, and nobody's heard about her ever since.
4b) Moderator takes a monthly check at the prefix list, and PMs Gen, Vic, Roy and Beth: "Hello, how are you! How are your mods? You know, they've been on the list for a long time, and we haven't seen any progress. We may have to delete your prefix!"
5b) Roy replies: "Sorry, I completed a mod! Here it is!" - and Roy's prefix becomes protected. Vic replies: "Sorry! I've done some progress, here is my forum and previews, I need more time!" - and Vic's prefix remains with "OK".
6b) During the next monthly check, moderator notices that Beth and Gen still haven't replied. He sighs, deletes their prefixes, and places them in a pinned thread "expired prefixes, please note".

[kulyok]

And, hey, plainab was faster.

[Ardanis]

Seems like I've noticed only bold part of the quote

The new policy would assign a time limit for each registered prefix, and if no mod is released with that prefix for the specified time limit, the prefix would be moved to second list, and its place would be freed on the primary list. This means that it becomes available again for others' to register, and if someone registers it, the original owner would lose it.

I understand the idea as keeping every registered prefix, but "abandoned" ones should either have some mark indicating they aren't being used, or be moved to the secondary list of abandoned prefixes.

And one more thing - there are already some collisions in the current list. So, perhaps indeed just to add "unused" column and be fine with it?

[Sir_Carnifex]

Personally, I think that the way things are done are just fine. Having a prefix because of some specific code or whatever a modder may want to make something slightly more convenient (or conform with their name, the mod name, etc.) isn't a good enough reason to knock already-registered prefixes off the list. If 75% of them are still available, there's no need to change anything.

That said, if it must be done, I say minimum of a year and a half to two years for a time limit. To give any less would be unreasonable.

[The Bigg]

What kind of time frame are you talking about before you take away a mod developers rights to a certain prefix? A couple months, a year or two? Some mods can take years to work on before it ever becomes public. This is specially true if they want to release a mod that is as bug free and compatible with as many other mods as possible. By forcing a time frame to release a mod, you will be potentially causing more bugs and problems to be introduced. This is something that you wouldn't like, no one would like it in fact.

You don't need to release a mod IMHO, it's better to prove you're working on the short term rather than vaguely promising to completing long term.

[jastey]

What Kulyok said.

The Bigg: A working Alpha after two month? Sorry, but I think this is dream world. Of course not everyone has to take as long as me to finish an NPC mod, but to make a working Alpha after two months a requirement to keep the prefix the modder used is unrealistic. And no, I don't think "you can change the prefix of the mod" is a solution. I did that for a mod only recently, it's a pain. Stating you are still interested in the prefix should be enough. I don't think the community should put so much unnecessary pressure on some modders. It's a game and a hobby we are talking about.
I favour Kulyok's approach, because it not only fixes the already registered prefixes, but also includes the contacting of the modder by the prefix list moderator before removing / deleting it. I don't know about you, but with all the RL going on, I am sure I would forget about a date I have to keep after a year in a hobby gaming project.

[aVENGER]

I too agree with Kulyok and plainab's statements.

IMO, that might be the best way to handle the prefix reservation issues.

[Sir_Carnifex]

Keeping everything AS IS would result in the least inconvenience for the person who manages the prefix lists AND for modders.