Yet another Journal. Random crews & some uncommon tactics and techniques, One big spoiler from start to finish. Options

[pekkae]

Updated the journal with numerous encounters. This has been so much fun.

Edit oct-23

My game is on a pause. RL issues. The last change I made was I made the classic OP R/C combination. It looks like a ridiculously effective character. And I included Keldorn the Cavalier as well. So I changed B(13)/M + Shaman => R(13)/C + KelDorn the Cavalier. Obviously our healing capabilities took a big hit a long with arcane spellcasting capabilities. But the thing is we were using the B(13)/M mostly as a fighter and she wasn't using her arcane casting powers that much, so Keldorn the Cavalier should be far more effective in that spot (it has 10 CS's already or so + judgemenet day). The switch from Shaman to R(13)/C dual obviously we lose a lot of our healing capabilities but we gain combat capabilities + more diverse spellcasting abilities. We would have have taken a single class cleric, but since almost all spells are capped at level 20 we figured we might as well take a more pumped of version. The inclusion of druid spells make the R/C combination comprehensively ridiculous character. It can reach -35AC ("easily") and we can put full elemental protections + skins on top. And it has high enough levels so they are difficult to dispel. Utterly ridiculous.

So

Kel-Dorn the Cavalier (with shiny new armour)
Hexxat
Vagrant
Jaheira
R/C dual (13->)
Necro

This looks like it's very, very OP.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 24 2023, 05:43 PM

[pekkae]

Updated the journal a little bit.

Added the "bugs" I've found etc.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Dec 1 2023, 01:33 PM

[critto]

pekkae, could you please clarify which version/branch you're playing with?

[pekkae]

pekkae, could you please clarify which version/branch you're playing with?

Sure!

It's the IA 6.6 Beta with BG2EE 2.6.6.0

So the unsupported version of Bg2 (I guess). I promised to keep taps on everything that's going on & whenever I find inconsistencies etc.

[critto]

OK, I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for the reports, I'll review them and take into consideration for v7.

Some of the stuff you mentioned had already been addressed.

[pekkae]

Why the elvish Kensai?

We should be able to reach about -38 Thac0 when we get to the final boss prince, even a little bit before. That's -23 better than the "golden standard" of fighters (-15). Then we can turbocharge our buffed thac0 to -48 for a moment.

I think we should be able to the prince without any poblems.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Dec 5 2023, 07:57 PM

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[SparrowJacek]

Wait... WHAT? Which buffs are you using to get that low?

[pekkae]

So.

-0 Base Thac0
-3 Proficiencies (-3)
-8 Judgement Day (-5)
-15 Strength (-7)
-16 Bless (-1) (or "the truth" off hand)
-17 Aid (-1)
-18 Elf (long sword bonus -1)
-19 Ioun Stone (-1)
-32 Kensai (level 39, -13)
-38 Champions Strength from Cleric (-6) (then re-up strength with GS)
-48 Spectral Brand armour piercing strike (-10) ... but this is for 3 rounds only.

But having -38 for 2 turns should be enough for pretty much anything.

And then we should be able to get a little boost from Chaos of Battle, if I understood correctly.

Ia is always easiest when you find ways to stack up bonuses on top of bonuses on top of bonuses.

[SparrowJacek]

-48 Spectral Brand armour piercing strike (-10) ... but this is for 3 rounds only.

I forgot about that! That's a neat bonus, even if only for 3 rounds :>

And then we should be able to get a little boost from Chaos of Battle, if I understood correctly.

Yes, you should. In general CoB is very powerful, probably even too powerful, especially since it can increase your Luck by 5.

[pekkae]

So a few final notes (in addition to the other notes I posted).

The idea, after it became too repetitive just to try out different approaches that I had not tried before. And it's much easier to try something mid-game, as I've run through the mod so many times I don't want to play through all of the chapters to see how a certain encounter turns with a little bit different setup.

But in the end the whole group was a little bit disconnected and it was like trying to force a number of pieces that don't fit that well together into a single group. While the crew was superbly powerful the consessions we had to make pushed it a little bit too far in the "wrong" direction (= as in it didn't turn out to be comprehensively overblownly effective all the time). Though some of the approaches taken in this journal them turned out to be superb fun. I think we are going to try again in the future, with the 6.6. changes. With our learnings in mind.

The original C/M turned out to be quite fun (it definitely has it's moments when it shines!) but I actually think the decision to remove IA from mage HLA's is the correct one. Even with IA it's just not that good, there are far better ways. As far as my runs come, the C/M does achieve combining arcane/divine spellcasting in one single character, but in all honesty CERND is just by far and easily the superb character for this. And it's not even particularly close. C/M brings AC tanking and more diverse spellcasting and some combat utility, but ... just no. No even if tweaked with imp. alacricity.

Out of all of the multiclasses the ones that are wonderful are the R/C combination (even without the advanced (4th level -->) druidic spells), Dwarven F/C combination and multiclassed F/M or F/Illusionist, as it plays like a regular fighter but with supreme protective spellcasting ability.

Btw. I think Aerie should be a Shaman. I mean, she's a healer so it's a character fit, I thinks.

Abusing cloak of Atonement is something I've never seen anyone do. And it's a little bit game/mod breaking. Hello going to Bodhi's lair with DD having -30AC and non-dispellable NPP (SoA from CoA). I do think it's an item that should not be removed, but the disadvantages should be reworked (and probably the price for recharging it should be higher). Otherwise, as in the journal, the DD with 60% DR and -30 something AC will just breeze through most of the encounters without even breaking a sweat.

The "Shadow twin" (Shadowdancer HLA) will also provide the player with a summon that can be made "indestructible". Would it be an option to make sure the summon can't use items in quick item slots? With that single change, it should be superbly useful and a nice addition. And actually the most effective summon in the game and player couldn't make an indestructible summon for fights (as in just leave BE potions in quick item slots, create the shadow twin & drink them during a fight giving the summon +100% DR).

And finally, I the cleric is now a competitive character. It has numerous places where it shines & will be a worthy addition to any party. I would definitely like to see some of the limitations of the current cleric's removed though, as in I think Cleric's buffs should come without the level cap. So long lasting regenerations, aura's of flaming death, perhaps globe of blades and so on. To me it makes sense to give out these powers to say priest of Talos, which would make it a very useful character with certain strategies. And if gauntlets of blessed might are reserved for good clerics (& paladins), it makes sure that Talos's combat ability isn't very potential, as I think it should be.

And finally, as always, thanks for all the work you've put into this. I've had som much fun with this .

This post has been edited by pekkae: Dec 15 2023, 11:47 PM

[SparrowJacek]

Pekkae, thank you VERY MUCH! We are extremely happy to have players like you in the community. Your messages and journals really motivate us to add and fix more elements of the mod, hopefully making it even more fun to play!

[pekkae]

Haha, my pleasure! I hope there's some useful content in these & it's much fun for me to try out different approaches & aspects!

[SparrowJacek]

The original C/M turned out to be quite fun (it definitely has it's moments when it shines!) but I actually think the decision to remove IA from mage HLA's is the correct one. Even with IA it's just not that good, there are far better ways. As far as my runs come, the C/M does achieve combining arcane/divine spellcasting in one single character, but in all honesty CERND is just by far and easily the superb character for this. And it's not even particularly close. C/M brings AC tanking and more diverse spellcasting and some combat utility, but ... just no. No even if tweaked with imp. alacricity.

I am very surprised, as purely theoretically, I thought that giving IA to that class should make it much stronger. Ofc Cernd is one of the most powerful casters, so comparing anyone but Necro protagonist to him is meaningless, but a C/M should still shine in some encounters. So do you think that this multiclass should be buffed apart from giving it IA? Do you have any suggestions?

The "Shadow twin" (Shadowdancer HLA) will also provide the player with a summon that can be made "indestructible". Would it be an option to make sure the summon can't use items in quick item slots?

Yes, there are some mods that do so, we might want to consider a similar approach or just remove this ability entirely. Don't worry, even if we do so, I have plenty of ideas regarding Thieves and especially this kit. I am sure other team members will add their ideas and suggestions to create something unique and useful.

And finally, I the cleric is now a competitive character.

I am really happy to hear that, as I spent a lot of time introducing those changes, but sadly I had no time to test them. I also tried to be very moderate with my changes, refraining from creating stuff that would be too powerful.Now thanks to all those runs done by you and other players, I have a somewhat better understanding of what works and what doesn't and all of that will be addressed when the time comes for an official reimplementation of this version.

I would definitely like to see some of the limitations of the current cleric's removed though, as in I think Cleric's buffs should come without the level cap. So long lasting regenerations, aura's of flaming death, perhaps globe of blades and so on. To me it makes sense to give out these powers to say priest of Talos, which would make it a very useful character with certain strategies.

That seems like a good idea, maybe we'll be able to do something about it.

[pekkae]

I am very surprised, as purely theoretically, I thought that giving IA to that class should make it much stronger. Ofc Cernd is one of the most powerful casters, so comparing anyone but Necro protagonist to him is meaningless, but a C/M should still shine in some encounters. So do you think that this multiclass should be buffed apart from giving it IA? Do you have any suggestions?

It would of course, but it looks a little bit pointless still.

#1 IA without casting time bonuses isn't very powerful

#2 the lack of spell slots, especially high level slots means that even if you give C/M stuffs to get to -4, you are left without the most important spells. At 7 mexp, when C/M would get IA, a plain sorcerer has about double the amount of spells for the most important mage levels and 7 level 9 slots, while the C/M has 1.

#3 And of course the sorceror has RvE & "full" Wish, while C/M doesn't

#4 relatively low levels means more difficult dispels & being subject to remove magic's until the end

But of course you know the mechanics better than I do. I don't have that much suggestions, in a number of cases pure classes are more potent than multiclasses and that's fine. If the C/M would be competitive, it would need to be improved a lot. Though Aerie, with her hammer and with IA should be ok potent character for some parties, while not being op.

Btw. Though the early game Edwin is fantastic caster & generally Sorcerer's as well throughout the game . While I do think the maxed out Cernd is probably one of the most fun characters to play.

Yes, there are some mods that do so, we might want to consider a similar approach or just remove this ability entirely. Don't worry, even if we do so, I have plenty of ideas regarding Thieves and especially this kit. I am sure other team members will add their ideas and suggestions to create something unique and useful.

Personally I like the Shadowdancer a lot. It duals nicely to a cleric and it's such a ridiculously difficult character to develop, it looks like a deserved reward to get the most useful summon in the game. Imho.

]I am really happy to hear that, as I spent a lot of time introducing those changes, but sadly I had no time to test them. I also tried to be very moderate with my changes, refraining from creating stuff that would be too powerful.Now thanks to all those runs done by you and other players, I have a somewhat better understanding of what works and what doesn't and all of that will be addressed when the time comes for an official reimplementation of this version.

I think most of the stuffs are really good and make Cleric a viable choice. But the problem with it party composition wise is that iof you want to have a "caster" priest cleric's lose out to Cernd and if you want to play a h2h combat priest, Avenger is so OP it's a little bit broken. And if you want to play a healer, the Shaman clears that part better than any of the Cleric's.

I would definitely like to see some of the limitations of the current cleric's removed though, as in I think Cleric's buffs should come without the level cap. So long lasting regenerations, aura's of flaming death, perhaps globe of blades and so on. To me it makes sense to give out these powers to say priest of Talos, which would make it a very useful character with certain strategies.

That seems like a good idea, maybe we'll be able to do something about it.

This would improve the Cleric's casting quite a lot and would make sense, imho. Very early "access" to enormously difficult to dispel long lasting buffs. Would balance out quite nicely, I think. With a proper sumon (improved Deva's(?)) would make Cleric competitive vs. other priests.

So Cleric would havei it's own role, which would be the strongest prebuffs in the game, basicly. It's a different advantage than any other class brings.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Dec 19 2023, 04:46 PM

[SparrowJacek]

But of course you know the mechanics better than I do

I might know better how to implement some mechanics or if something is possible at all, but you have so much more experience with the game itself, that you know what is useful and what is not far better than I do That's why all suggestions from the players are valuable to us, as our team is small right now.

I think most of the stuffs are really good and make Cleric a viable choice. But the problem with it party composition wise is that iof you want to have a "caster" priest cleric's lose out to Cernd and if you want to play a h2h combat priest, Avenger is so OP it's a little bit broken. And if you want to play a healer, the Shaman clears that part better than any of the Cleric's.

Well, so Clerics are OK in all 3 fields. They are the new "jacks of all trades masters of none", while Bards are out of commission

This would improve the Cleric's casting quite a lot and would make sense, imho. Very early "access" to enormously difficult to dispel long lasting buffs. Would balance out quite nicely, I think. With a proper sumon (improved Deva's(?)) would make Cleric competitive vs. other priests.

So Cleric would havei it's own role, which would be the strongest prebuffs in the game, basicly. It's a different advantage than any other class brings.

Thanks, those are some very interesting comments and a curious point of view regarding Clerics.

[lroumen]

I think the longer buffs would be nice, but in difficult fights against mages I get so much dispel magic towards the party that they hardly ever survive the full duration anyhow.
I like it a lot that when purify aura comes into play, you get to recast several of them again in no time.
That is also why cleric mage can be enticing because you can sequencer them back onto the party. But I think their spell levels are too far behind the rest of the party and get dispelled even more easily.

With the right buffs a cleric is now quite a melee force to be reckoned with. For spell casting, what Talos is driven into I still feel I am missing some casting speed bonuses somewhere until I get to spell level 7. Maybe some more offensive spells could be welcome because many are purposed towards a certain enemy type. Talos is just a bit too slow until it tries to take off late game.

What I truely like is that we have more shield options now to get to lower AC. Mazzy is a good user, clerics have benefits, and I feel swashbuckler uses them well in certain fights. It is good to be able to go toe to toe with enemies with AC below -20. And priest spells give good staying power. Defensive Harmony, Guardian Angel, shaman regeneration and party heals, aid, bless, chant... only buffing takes long sometimes.

Overall, I feel improved anvil has become better with the cleric changes.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Dec 20 2023, 05:06 AM

[pekkae]

I think the longer buffs would be nice, but in difficult fights against mages I get so much dispel magic towards the party that they hardly ever survive the full duration anyhow.

This is my point exactly. Cleric quite fast out-levels even the most advanced remove magic users in the game, so the buffs won't get dispelled (even though they might get purge magic'ked). But say something like supreme leader, one you get there a cleric should be able to cast protect from lightning and the leader can't remove magic it (unless it get slucky).

I like it a lot that when purify aura comes into play, you get to recast several of them again in no time.
That is also why cleric mage can be enticing because you can sequencer them back onto the party. But I think their spell levels are too far behind the rest of the party and get dispelled even more easily.

Spiritual link with purify aura is really nice, without being op.

With the right buffs a cleric is now quite a melee force to be reckoned with. For spell casting, what Talos is driven into I still feel I am missing some casting speed bonuses somewhere until I get to spell level 7. Maybe some more offensive spells could be welcome because many are purposed towards a certain enemy type. Talos is just a bit too slow until it tries to take off late game.

Improved "disrupt undead"? Personally i would appreciate a proper summon. Something like smilodon+

What I truely like is that we have more shield options now to get to lower AC. Mazzy is a good user, clerics have benefits, and I feel swashbuckler uses them well in certain fights. It is good to be able to go toe to toe with enemies with AC below -20. And priest spells give good staying power. Defensive Harmony, Guardian Angel, shaman regeneration and party heals, aid, bless, chant... only buffing takes long sometimes.

Overall, I feel improved anvil has become better with the cleric changes.

Yup, revamped sword & shield style is really good.

[pekkae]

I might know better how to implement some mechanics or if something is possible at all, but you have so much more experience with the game itself, that you know what is useful and what is not far better than I do That's why all suggestions from the players are valuable to us, as our team is small right now.

I'm happy if this helps / if I can help!

Well, so Clerics are OK in all 3 fields. They are the new "jacks of all trades masters of none", while Bards are out of commission

Haha, wasn't it so that bards used to uber powerful?

Then again, one can always deveop Jaheira also to this "swiss army knife" (useful in all fields) role with 25 Wisdom + casting time bonuses, as druids have so much druid specific stuffs. And on top Jaheira has a superbly useful spell selection and she's is really good in H2H. And on top of that, she has one of the best summons in the game .

It's not that th Cleric isn't balanced (or underpowered), is just that it's "competing" with some of the most powerful kits in IA.

[lroumen]

Bards used to be too good because they got the armor with permanent alacrity on it. Once that got removed the power level dwindled. They are still good with spells because of the fast leveling, but alacrity made them too good.
It was the same for thieves when the grandmaster lost its permanent improved haste.

The rogue classes still need some love, but most of the thieving skills are quite useless compared to before.
No stealing in shops is understandable, but then randomly improve normal stealing elsewhere (commoners or nobles or unique npcs), the problem is how to make it non-abusable.
Stealth is also not great with so much illusion dispel or see through invisibility that creatures have.
Traps are reduced in strength due to increased resistances and npcs reacting to setting of traps (especially dragons).
Some HLAs... are not great in IA. Use any item, removed from some class combos.

But rogues are for another time.

[SparrowJacek]

They are still good with spells because of the fast leveling

In IAv6 they lost that on higher levels.

No stealing in shops is understandable, but then randomly improve normal stealing elsewhere (commoners or nobles or unique npcs), the problem is how to make it non-abusable.

Well, for me the worst thing about stealing is that you can just hire Jan or Hexxat, put all their points into stealing and rob everyone, then just drop that NPC forever. I don't think there is any way to go around that, at least nothing worth pursuing...

I do have an idea for a complete overhaul of 6 out of 7 thieving skills (open locks will be left untouched most probably), that would make all of them interesting and useful, but quoting Iroumen:

But rogues are for another time.

So stay tuned, as I am sure there will be many great things added in the future.