Bill Bisco - My Testing, Testing for experienced players Options

[Bill Bisco]

So, I'm reloading my game. I'm reloading to back before I failed my pickpocket save. Since failing a pickpocket will cause the entire town to go red on you and break the mod, I'll just reload whenever I fail.

One note before continuing, NPCs in Easthaven say that they have no items on them



But, when they die, they reveal that these people actually carry a fair bit of gold on them. It would make the game more fun if we could successfully pickpocket the citizens.



Alright, so now I know your name, Everard eh? The Pacifist Priest of the God of Battles. Got. During this playthrough I actually didn't visit the tavern before talking to this Priest. I don't even know who Hrothgar is, yet my character references his name.



It'd be really nice to be able to cast stone to flesh on this disk....or steal it.



It'd be really nice to be able to steal from this crippled Pacifist Priest of the God of War.



This nice chest contains a winter wolf pelt, crossbow and bolts. Jaheira can use the latter.



This man wants this wolf dead in his house hmm. I don't want to kill it. Maybe, I can use the pelt I already have?



Crap, it doesn't register. I'll have to face the wolf directly.



I charmed the wolf. I did not want to kill it. Can I find an alternative? Can I pickpocket this charmed wolf? YES! I cannot pickpocket gold, but I can steal wolf hides without the wolf noticing!



Everybody wins!

[Vlad]

Bill, thanks for your valuable comments. BG1 is different from BG2 in that it's much less plot oriented. I agree. In BG1 you can virtually do anything without breaking a plot because you're hunting one final character, Sarevok, and nothing else matters.

Now, imagine in BG2 you start chaotically killing the key NPCs, first you kill Aran Linvail, no matter you can still help Bodhi. But you didn't accep her quest. You cannot come and say sorry. Now you kill her. You're stuck. The same with killing folks in Athkatla. Failing pickpocketing in Copper Coronet, and the whole area turns hostile - you cannot proceed with the slavers quest anymore. Oh, I've always wanted to kill Saemon on the first sight, but it would again instantly end my game.

NeJ like BG2 is plot oriented. Deviating from the plot from the beginning won't give you any options to proceed. Inside sub-quests, no problems, but the key NPCs decide your plot. Killing Arundel or not following his quests is plot breaking even in IWD. This is not BG1, but BG2 style game, where you should follow the main plot.

Shar Teel has many crazy ideas, but Hrothgar tells her that this is his quest, not her, and she is free to leave. Of course, you can drop Hrothgar and follow Shar Teel, clean Kuldahar from inhabitants before orcs will have done so. But then this is a different game, not NEJ, and even not IWD.

I'll follow your advice and smooth the game decision options in Easthaven, but that's all I'll do. I cannot rework the whole mod just to suit the taste and gaming style of a single player, a respectable player.

Btw, you're not forced to proceed with the quest of killing that poor wolf. Why not to ignore it?

The dialogue of Everard refers to Hrothgar in assumption you have already met him. So no issues here either. Just ignore that dialogue option if you have no idea who is Hrothgar. That's why you have several response options.

As I said, I'll rework Easthaven as you ask. But only Easthaven. Then you'll be able to kill guys without alarming the whole town. As for Pomab, he is a semi-key character on your way to the final battle, so you cannot kill him now either. Even your protagonists explains to Shar Teel that it's not wise to kill the prominent citizen of this city and alarm the whole city. Just wait until the final chapter. I promise you'll enjoy that battle.

[EDIT] I have never played mutiplayer, so I don't know the pros and cons of that approach. I even don't know how to mod the multiplayer game, is there anything special about that except multiplayer synchronisation in cutscenes?

This post has been edited by Vlad: May 23 2015, 10:15 PM

[Senka]

I promise you'll enjoy that battle

And you'll be able to crush his ... head at least... Or smth else.

[Vlad]

Bill, I'm introducing the following blocks in each script in Easthaven, so from now on you can pickpocket people getting just one warning if you fail. If you get caught twice, the people may turn hostile randomly (may or may not).

CODE

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    Global("VP_Enough_IsEnough","LOCALS",1)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        Enemy()
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,1)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76827) // I wouldn't try that again. Thieves are not welcome in these parts.
        SetGlobal("VP_Enough_IsEnough","LOCALS",1)
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,2)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76828) // That better not have been your hand I felt in my pocket.
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,3)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76829) // You thieving scoundrel. I'll let you off this time with a warning, but next time...
        SetGlobal("VP_Enough_IsEnough","LOCALS",1)
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,4)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76830) // Watch yourself, stranger. Pickpocketing is risky business - especially when your as clumsy as you seem to be.
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,5)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76831) // Hey, watch it! Keep your hands to yourself, friend.
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,6)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76832) // I don't appreciate the attempt at theft. You'd better behave yourself.
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,7)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76833) // You're lucky I'm a forgiving person. Don't try to steal from me again.
        SetGlobal("VP_Enough_IsEnough","LOCALS",1)
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,8)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76834) // Keep your distance. You think I can't tell what you were doing just now?
        Continue()
END

IF
    !Allegiance(Myself,ENEMY)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
    RandomNum(9,9)
THEN
    RESPONSE #100
        DisplayStringHead(Myself,76835) // What were you just doing? I'd like to ask that you step away, thank you.
        Continue()
END

This post has been edited by Vlad: May 23 2015, 10:54 PM

[Bill Bisco]

Vlad, that is some really cool code there! I really like you have random different dialogue options to put some variety in there. I should love to test it later!

I'll follow your advice and smooth the game decision options in Easthaven, but that's all I'll do. I cannot rework the whole mod just to suit the taste and gaming style of a single player, a respectable player.

As I said, I'll rework Easthaven as you ask. But only Easthaven. Then you'll be able to kill guys without alarming the whole town. As for Pomab, he is a semi-key character on your way to the final battle, so you cannot kill him now either. Even your protagonists explains to Shar Teel that it's not wise to kill the prominent citizen of this city and alarm the whole city. Just wait until the final chapter. I promise you'll enjoy that battle. biggrin.gif

Thank you Vlad. That's really wonderful; the ability to not get stuck in the NEJ quest and be able to get back to BG2 is really important. In BG1, key plot characters such as Duke Eltan cannot be hurt or killed by the player; that's one way to prevent the game getting stuck.

Btw, you're not forced to proceed with the quest of killing that poor wolf. Why not to ignore it?

I admit to having some fun with my posts but I am trying to fully test this mod as best as I can. This means that I talk to and pickpocket every NPC, open every container, and try to complete every quest even though I would play differently if I weren't bug/mod testing. So since I needed to test this quest, I wanted to see if I could complete it without actually killing the wolf. He wouldn't accept another wolf pelt, but he would accept an alternate wolf pelt even though the item name was the same. However, I was able to pick pocket the pelt from the living wolf and give it to the man and complete the quest that way! So I was able to satisfy both my intent to test the mod as well as my intent to closer roleplay my PC. Also, I don't necessarily advocate removing this exploit; sometimes funny things like this make the game more enjoyable.

[EDIT] I have never played mutiplayer, so I don't know the pros and cons of that approach. I even don't know how to mod the multiplayer game, is there anything special about that except multiplayer synchronisation in cutscenes?

The other items include that every time you load a game, you're promted to approve characters by clicking their checkbox and then starting. What this means is that you can import characters into the game at any time; so if you're playing your game and you'd like your friend to join you with their custom character, they can join in easily. You can also delete characters at any time, so if your friend leaves and you want to continue playing, you can easily just remove them. This also means that you can delete the main PC and replace them at any time. So if your main PC is a Female Elf Mage, you could replace them with a Male Dwarven Cleric. The game will still think that your PC is a Female Elf Mage, so the dialogue, romance, and stronghold options will remain with what you started the game as.

Multiplayer can be a lot of fun. I'd definitely recommend trying it at least once or twice. It's nice to work with an fellow intelligent human being to fight battles with and not have to control 6 NPCs. I would definitely enjoy playing with you, and I'm sure that many other people would enjoy playing with you as well.

[Bill Bisco]

If you let the righteous wolves eat Dar, they will stand there motionless if even your PC is nearby. Perhaps they should flee the scene?



The wolves will stand there motionless even if they're being attacked. Perhaps they should fight back or flee?



Dar complains that I'm not helping him, but I totally am! From a safe distance of course



I charmed Dar, now he's red. He actually will never speak to you if he's charmed and he cannot join you if he has ever been charmed (because he thinks you're evil). If you haven't installed ToBEx, then you can't talk to charmed creatures



Dar grants no xp



If you summon a skeleton towards the edge of the blackness, the wolves will attack the skeleton and not Dar. And, these winter wolves will never hurt the skeleton.



These winter wolves have perfect morale. One regular skeleton killed all 5 of them and not one of them ran away even though the skeleton never took any damage! Bravo!



Dar apparently pretty silent about the fact that he just stood there while 5 winter wolves attacked an innocent skeleton.



In fact, you can't even talk to him. He's permanently mute at the horrors he's just seen. Poor Dar!



Dar refers to me as "your people". My character is a Half-Orc. Perhaps he should notice this and have different dialogue resultingly.

[Bill Bisco]

If you charm a Boring Beetle, it almost instantly turns hostile again. Not much fun.



Frost Giant Yellow Snow Melt? That sounds like pee.



I still have the fish bone, but the little boy who wants it is nowhere to be found

[Bill Bisco]

I still have no idea what this Sirine wants. Dar should have a comment yes?



If you tell Hrothgar you'd rather fish than go on an expedition, you cannot talk to him again and the game is borked. You cannot retalk to him to change your mind. Game is borked.



At least this time, now that I completed the caravan quest first, Hrothgar is not constantly force talking me.



I told Hrothgar that I wanted him with me, then I removed him from the party. He followed me and I told him to remain where we were.



Hrothgar can join you again. But, you'll never leave Easthaven. Game is Borked.

[Vlad]

Bill, I'm uploading the new version with what I've promised to change for you. But all this experimental stuff that you show is for our mutual amusement only. Don't expect me to do anything with that.

[EDIT] I suggest you start disassembling the original game this way. Maybe guys from EE would like to work on that.

This post has been edited by Vlad: May 25 2015, 07:56 PM

[Bill Bisco]

Bill, I'm uploading the new version with what I've promised to change for you. But all this experimental stuff that you show is for our mutual amusement only. Don't expect me to do anything with that.

[EDIT] I suggest you start disassembling the original game this way. Maybe guys from EE would like to work on that.

Hi Vlad, I don't know what you mean by "experimental" stuff. All these ways that Hrothgar won't take you on an expedition are issues that bork the game. Dar not talking to you borks him joining your party.

Should I restart? What should I look for differently besides pickpocketing in this new version?

EE came and went without me noticing and I was not asked to beta test

[Vlad]

Bill, just follow the plot, at least until Dragon's Eye. Talk to Hrothgar, accept quest, save Dar from wolves if you want him. He is one of the best NPCs in the game btw. Return to Hrothgar, bring bad news about caravan, get the list from Pomab. Optionally join Accalia, if you don't have Jahi with you. Minsc proved to be really good for the first part though. Follow Hrothgar. I mean follow Hrothgar, don't break his quests, don't say him no, if you want to play. Because if you say no, it means no in the game.

[EDIT] Just want to make it very clear - it's not a BG1 style game, I repeat. All quests are connected in chain, like in original IWD. You get the quest, you do it, then next and so on. You can explore areas only in the frame of the particular quest. You finished the quest, you cannot come back. There is no such freedom of walking like in BG1. It's a plot-oriented game. If you "bork" one of the quests in the chain, you won't get the next quest. If you refused to do something, you cannot go back. The only way is reload. That's it. Removing Hrothgar from the group will equally "bork" the whole mod. Please understand that in NeJ, the MAIN character is not your PC but Hrothgar. So if you want to play the whole mod, you should follow him.

This post has been edited by Vlad: May 25 2015, 10:06 PM

[Vlad]

I told Hrothgar that I wanted him with me, then I removed him from the party. He followed me and I told him to remain where we were.

Now looking at the screen shots I've realized what you did. In the final dialogue before the cutscene that was supposed to start the expedition, you joined Hrothgar, and immediately without leaving the dialogue screen, you removed him, so he stayed out of party. You're really serious about breaking the core game.

This post has been edited by Vlad: May 25 2015, 10:42 PM

[mystymoo]

This reminds me of when my grandfather used to build computers to sell on ebay, then would have me test them to see if I could break them XD

[Bill Bisco]

I told Hrothgar that I wanted him with me, then I removed him from the party. He followed me and I told him to remain where we were.

Now looking at the screen shots I've realized what you did. In the final dialogue before the cutscene that was supposed to start the expedition, you joined Hrothgar, and immediately without leaving the dialogue screen, you removed him, so he stayed out of party. You're really serious about breaking the core game.

I hope you appreciate this Vlad. This is what a comprehensive serious tester does. I'm surprised no one has given you any of this feedback before.

My suggestion is to alter the Hrothgar dialogues to something like this here. Basically, if you say that you don't want to go with Hrothgar, he will leave and say he'll find another party. If we say no, we bork the game. So, we shouldn't be allowed to say no. Dialogue should change so that we have to say yes and game continuity is assured (just like in the video link above). Or remove the false choices altogether. False choices aren't fun in my opnion.

As an additional note Vlad, when Hrothgar originally asked me if I was ready to go, I was, but I didn't realize that meant that I had to kick out a party member and have him come along as an NPC. I needed to move around some items to accommodate the fact that I was losing an NPC. If we need to remove an NPC, we need to be given some time to accomplish this without losing all their items (some plot critical perhaps) and without borking the game.

This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: May 26 2015, 10:29 PM

[Senka]

You are confusing the determination of the tester and game-breaker. Tester checks games for bugs. You just try to break the main story.

[Bill Bisco]

You are confusing the determination of the tester and game-breaker. Tester checks games for bugs. You just try to break the main story.

I don't think so. In traveling to Kuldahar, I was prompted to add a party member. Originally I did not even want Hrothgar in my party. Later I realized that in order to travel, I had to kick out another party member. When I finished preparing (move items away) from When I had kicked that party member out I couldn't talk to Hrothgar and travel. That is a problem.

As stated before, false choices tend not to be fun. It's why I suggested changing dialogue to something similar in the video. If they really are to be kept in, the game needs to really tell us that it's game over like a certain genre does.

[Senka]

the game needs

This is not game. This is mod that you installed. If you don't like it - just don't play it. It's simple.

[Bill Bisco]

the game needs

This is not game. This is mod that you installed. If you don't like it - just don't play it. It's simple.

I guess that logic can apply to a lot of things in life. Don't like your kid? Send them to boarding school. Don't like your house? Demolish it. Don't like your cake, get a bigger one! Of course the purpose of beta testing is to provide feedback on bugs and issues which is exactly what I'm doing. And, who said anything about not liking it? I'm really enjoying playing this mod. Thank you Vlad for all this new content and the opportunity to play! I'm really liking it so far!

[Vlad]

Bill, your logic is correct, and your comments are okay. Thanks for testing, it's appreciated. BUT....

But, this level of testing is good for a game, not for the mod (like Senka said). I cannot account for all the purposely game breaking points because I'm not a studio making games. You may equally try and test BG2 at this level of perfection and see how many breaking issues you'll have there. The difference is that when you do such thorough testing for a game like BG2, the studio/company would probably take care of them. And I cannot devote my free time to such things, it's just waste in my opinion.

That's why I suggest you read about the mod, you read the hints and undocumented features, and you'll reload if you feel that you're stuck at some quest.

[Bill Bisco]

I took NeJ3v71 and reinstalled it into a brand new install. I didn't want to risk any issues of installing over NeJ3v70

I decided to try out the Tutorial (which I've never done before).



Apparently the Tutorial is Candlekeep.



Let's see what we find:



At least Wintrhop sells clubs! I really need a club in Easthaven darn it!



These really are some strange rumors Winthrop..... Why is he hitting on me?




Not talking to me. I have no idea what's going on here.



The rats insist on following me.



I cannot leave Candlekeep



Candlekeep watchers don't like stealing for some reason. The original training room is empty. I thought the tutorial might happen here, but nothing



No Imoen or Gorion but Candlekeep door is open



Place is pretty empty save some barely talkative NPCs. I found this letter which I think is supposed to be Gorion's letter, but it's blank.



The top level is supposed to contain Ulraunt and Tethtoril, but they're not here.