New policy for the Community Prefix List, We need your feedback Options

[DavidW]

I don't feel very strongly about this, but here's an argument for the status quo:

In practice modders can make their own decisions about whether to risk registering a prefix that's already registered. Why don't you say that if someone wants to register an already-registered prefix you don't let them if (a) the prefix was registered fairly recently (six months ago? a year?) or (b) there's a mod already out that uses the prefix. But if neither of these hold, you can remind the modder that the prefix is already taken, but still let them register (and mark as a conflict) if they insist.

In fact, I'm roughly in this situation. I wrote SCS without actually being aware of the prefix list, and used DW (DW#, actually - "DW" is actually used by a lot of vanilla-game files, so the extra symbol seemed worth it) without knowing that someone else had registered it. When I got round to checking the list, I thought about changing mine but decided it wasn't worth it for a prefix that didn't actually seem to have anything registered under it - and the list admins were kind enough to allow it.

The advantage of doing it that way is that you devolve the risk assessment to the modders themselves, without potentially giving yourselves a lot of work and hassle.

EDIT: if the previous version had a random smiley, that's because it was supposed to be (b). Forum software is hell on people like me who use structured lists lots!

This post has been edited by DavidW: Sep 1 2008, 10:05 AM

[SConrad]

I think a lot of people are taking this the wrong way. Let me restate my views on the issue:

I think mod prefixes is a great idea, don't get me wrong. But the argument that I should avoid using MPI for my mod because of the reason that it's registered to Wolfmoon (Neil) seems a bit... weak. I don't even recognize a fraction of the people in the list as modders with released mods, and a vast majority of them won't be coming back to finish the mod idea they had several years ago and registered a prefix for. As a result of this, most "attractive" prefixes are already "taken," and I think it's a shame that modders are discouraged from using the prefix they want because somebody who never will release a mod already has registered it. Even if it's not explicitly said that they can't register it as a conflict, they will nevertheless be reluctant to do so anyway.

In the past it has been suggested that modders who are inactive for two years in the community is removed from the list, but that's a bad idea too: I haven't seen japeth, Ajoc or BobTokyo in the past 24 months, but it would be a bad idea to remove their prefixes as they have mods released. And if I really, really want to use EV for my mod, I can't--because one "DragonJewel13" registered it in August last year, but hasn't been seen or heard from ever since. My money's on that he'll never release a mod.

Another idea was to add a modder's prefix after they have released at least one mod, since it's only after a mod has been released that incompatibility errors appear. However, this does not take into account the possibility of two modders simultaneously work on separate mod with the same prefix, not knowing that somebody else is using it.

Therefore, my suggestion is that some sort of timeframe is established for how long a modder have the right to reserve a prefix. If they haven't released a mod within six months after registering the prefix, they lose the registration. At this point, however, they may re-register the prefix if they are working on a large project--this would also mean that the modder is still active in the community. As soon as a mod is released by the modder, the prefix stays without any time limit.

This would also give incentives to modders to release smaller mods, while they're learning how to. Even if they only release a minor kit, spell or item mod, a side-effect would be that their prefix stays. Hopefully, this would mean that more modders would release learn-to-mod mods, and those releases (and how they are received in the community) may result in the modder being encouraged to continue modding. I know that for me, it was very helpful to release Timestop Tweak, because I felt like I had contributed--and it made me more eager to continue working on other projects. I'm honestly not sure I would have stayed in the IE community if it wasn't for that. Besides, more mods has never hurt the community, either.

Needless to say, I do think there are good reasons for freeing up prefixes that never will be used. I am in support of a revised version of the prefix list, however that may be. Considering that people seem to be... disagreeing, I would at least say the suggestion Kulyok listed in post 13 looks reasonable (and not too far off my original suggestion). I'd like to include the the parenthesized revision to 0), though--no, I'm not going to release a mod with EX, and Kingrames is not going to release a mod with K!.

[magrat]

I recently registered a prefix with the list and it wasn't my first or second choice to use, but it really didn't bother me. It's just a prefix -- I don't really care what it comprises of as long as I can remember to use it continually, and I can.

However, I don't particularly want to feel pressured about releasing an alpha of a mod, or (even worse) a learn-to mod within a certain time. I have a very clear mod that I am working on, but I also have very restrictive personal time on which to work on it. This, together, means I don't know when the 'finish' will be, but hopefully it'll be sooner rather than later.

As someone else said -- it's a hobby, and I'm doing it for the enjoyment. If you expect people to get in touch regularly to report progress, I think you risk people just giving up on the list and thinking 'whatever -- I'll use <prefix> if I want to, because I can't be bothered with the hassle' and then if they DO release a mod, you may get more conflicts. If you are the one to issue PMs or whatever, you're making a whole load of extra work for whoever is maintaining it.

I suppose I just don't get what's so important about having some special prefix -- there seems to be plenty still available?

[The Bigg]

The Bigg: A working Alpha after two month? Sorry, but I think this is dream world. Of course not everyone has to take as long as me to finish an NPC mod, but to make a working Alpha after two months a requirement to keep the prefix the modder used is unrealistic. And no, I don't think "you can change the prefix of the mod" is a solution. I did that for a mod only recently, it's a pain. Stating you are still interested in the prefix should be enough. I don't think the community should put so much unnecessary pressure on some modders. It's a game and a hobby we are talking about.

Pre-alpha. If you can't write a dozen dialogues in 2+2 months, your mod will likely never be finished. Keep in mind that you do a great deal of the work in the initial enthusiastic phase, and it's more likely that you'll slow down even more down the line (taking the usual example of RTW, 90% of the work was done between late 2002 and mid 2003).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Hmm, has everybody seen the suggestion of change? Let's hope...

So OK, I might not use the one I have reserved, but I would like to have the option to keep it, until it's contested(asked to be removed from the list by somebody, -anybody) Ah, I take that back, as I am a modder.

A question, can we use a set prefix if the modder has left the community, but we want to update_their_work^TM a bit, and the prefix would just fit better?

Edit; ... and Cerberus.

This post has been edited by Jarno Mikkola: Oct 5 2009, 09:09 AM

[jastey]

Just to throw in something: There are people who register a prefix and turn up two years later.

And I am strongly against trying to force anyone to make early releases, pre-pre alphas or whatever. It's a hobby and should stay that way; plus, in my opinion this would only increase the number of people using no prefix or "whatever", because they fear that they will lose it anyway. If that makes sense.

[Sir_Carnifex]

Just to throw in something: There are people who register a prefix and turn up two years later.

And I am strongly against trying to force anyone to make early releases, pre-pre alphas or whatever. It's a hobby and should stay that way; plus, in my opinion this would only increase the number of people using no prefix or "whatever", because they fear that they will lose it anyway. If that makes sense.

Good point there. We can all post reasons why not to use the new system suggested, but a concrete example of why what we already have works is best.

[markmid]

This is a tough call, especially as i just changed my prefix

I would say we should pick a prefix and that should be it in an ideal world of course, that way everyone knows where they are and if they choose to use the same prefix the conflicts they are likely to have.

But if a different sort of system is required, perhaps if after 18 months or so if you haven't released or don't seem to be working on a mod you need to come back to the list and state you still want to keep the prefix? That way you don't need to release anything and if your still even remotely active you can simply keep your prefix. If someone is away for 18 months their name on the list greys out but remains to still let people know there may be a conflict in the future?

The only problem becomes, how do you track when someone has released a small mod or tweak and of course unfinished works? I don't think any system will ever be perfect but we can only find the best system we can. The list is an extremely useful reference for modders and players alike and I hope it remains strong, I think the majority can at least agree with that.

This post has been edited by markmid: Sep 2 2008, 05:48 PM

[Sir_Carnifex]

The only problem becomes, how do you track when someone has released a small mod or tweak and of course unfinished works? I don't think any system will ever be perfect but we can only find the best system we can. The list is an extremely useful reference for modders and players alike and I hope it remains strong, I think the majority can at least agree with that.

That's the problem that I foresee. How many people would remember to give the keeper of the list an update on their status as a modder -- especially after nearly two years have elapsed (I think someone mentioned that before, too.)? And if anyone were to say that the keeper needs to keep track of all these and send out emails to those who are nearing the expiration -- that would be an unreasonable burden to put on him. The suggested new system would just involve more work and inconvenience for all parties involved for the minor -- VERY minor -- gain of having prefixes that match their names or mods. (I was happy to get one that matches my name that was still available, but had someone already registered CX previously years ago, I would have chosen something else. No problems there.)

[markmid]

Apologies if anyone has suggested in another thread, its quite obvious so I am sure someone has.

We could have an alternate, completely fresh list by altering the usual # component of the variables as a third, fixed character. Sounds simple enough that it just might work.

You could use ! for instance, all prefixes on the second list are 2 letters + ! or some other character thats not often used, just an idea but you could virtually double the size of your potential list with just that one addition, with another one you triple it.

[Ardanis]

I'm unsure if i understood your idea the right way.
You mean that currently people are using XY# prefix for variables (ones that are used in scripts) and by changing # character with another one (!, @, $, etc.) it's possible to increase a number of combinations?
The variable names aren't a problem here as they can contain up to 24 (or 28?) characters. It's filenames (spells, creatures, items, etc.) who needs attention - they may consist of 8 characters maximum. Having only five letters to name you files is much harder than having six letters at you disposal. That's, as I believe, the reason why only two-lettered prefixes are being registered - though nobody prevents you from using the third character as well - I have AG prefix registered, but I use AG# anyway for files.

[DavidW]

I'm unsure if i understood your idea the right way.
You mean that currently people are using XY# prefix for variables (ones that are used in scripts) and by changing # character with another one (!, @, $, etc.) it's possible to increase a number of combinations?
The variable names aren't a problem here as they can contain up to 24 (or 28?) characters. It's filenames (spells, creatures, items, etc.) who needs attention - they may consist of 8 characters maximum. Having only five letters to name you files is much harder than having six letters at you disposal. That's, as I believe, the reason why only two-lettered prefixes are being registered - though nobody prevents you from using the third character as well - I have AG prefix registered, but I use AG# anyway for files.

There's actually a lot to be said for using a non-alphanumeric character like # or _ somewhere in your filename - it guarantees that you won't clash with the original game. (And there are >40^5 5-letter filenames...)

[Ardanis]

And there are >40^5 5-letter filenames

For a computer mostly. I think for a human it might be difficult to keep a track using AF45F, AE45G, AF47C

[Sir_Carnifex]

Apologies if anyone has suggested in another thread, its quite obvious so I am sure someone has.

I was referring to what I was saying when I mentioned that.

[markmid]

I'm unsure if i understood your idea the right way.
You mean that currently people are using XY# prefix for variables (ones that are used in scripts) and by changing # character with another one (!, @, $, etc.) it's possible to increase a number of combinations?
The variable names aren't a problem here as they can contain up to 24 (or 28?) characters. It's filenames (spells, creatures, items, etc.) who needs attention - they may consist of 8 characters maximum. Having only five letters to name you files is much harder than having six letters at you disposal. That's, as I believe, the reason why only two-lettered prefixes are being registered - though nobody prevents you from using the third character as well - I have AG prefix registered, but I use AG# anyway for files.

Thats all true to an extent but I work quite well with Q6# as my file prefixes, perhaps its just the way I read strings that makes it easy to ignore the first three characters? Though it does sound as though you understand what I mean, doing it yourself too. I believe many people, like us, would be happy enough to use three characters in front of the files and as long as one of these is a special character, you eliminate any compatibility worries.

I could easily adapt to using Q6! etc, the names are easy enough to read, especially as a lot of mods are not next mega sized mods and don't contain a huge amount of files. I do use directories perhaps more than the average modder though, so I always have things organised.

There's actually a lot to be said for using a non-alphanumeric character like # or _ somewhere in your filename - it guarantees that you won't clash with the original game. (And there are >40^5 5-letter filenames...)

I think a lot of people feel the same, at least when i've skimmed their file names, which is what made me consider this suggestion.

Apologies if anyone has suggested in another thread, its quite obvious so I am sure someone has.

I was referring to what I was saying when I mentioned that.

I was meaning what I went on to suggest, darn typo's!

This post has been edited by markmid: Sep 4 2008, 01:30 PM

[Domi]

Please, no changes. There are tons of 2 symbol combinations (does anyone use _, . etc yet?), and IE modding scene is on the downward spiral. So, there is absolutely no need to start rehashing the system. Just a waste of time and make it all too confusing.

[Sir-Kill]

is this still under discussion? if so, I'd have to agree with Domi if it is not broke why try to fix it?
if there is someone that just cant live w/o a certain prefix maybe they can do the leg work to see if who owns that prefix and if they have released a mod, if so they cant use it. If not they can search to see if that person has been active on any of the major ie boards in the last 2? years, if the prefix holder has not been active in that time they must show proof on at least 5 boards that they have not (links of last active dates or pics of their inactivity)

but again mostly a waste of time just use a different one

This post has been edited by Sir-Kill: Sep 7 2008, 04:47 PM

[Sir_Carnifex]

is this still under discussion?

Continue to converse about it if you wish, but I don't think we'll get any further. The majority opinion has been clearly on the side of leaving the present system alone. Any further discussion would probably just be reiteration of the points already made.