Bill Bisco - My Testing, Testing for experienced players Options

[Senka]

1. Didn't you see alarm message just before entering portal? )))
2. I believe you didn't understand the scenario. This is whole mod - NeJ. The end is too far )
3. I always play multiclass. No problem. If you have Taffic he can do all these quest for you. He is multiclass.
4. Smth wrong with your installation maybe.
5. When you deal with important character you need to use save-load option. If you steal from them you need to load your game. Often. If you want to steal without problem you need to rise your skill to 200. But! I'm not sure about Aran. Is this enough I mean.

[Vlad]

Bill, there is a warning on warning, very clear warning. When you click the portal, you are warned that you should explore the area and do the quests before continue, and you may not be given another chance to do so. Ok, some player ignored the warning, it means he didn't want to do the first level of the dungeon. So, this is the clear consequence of the role-playing, exactly what you like.

Next, I like the idea that some NPCs do not agree with your protagonist. One of them Hrothgar. Also Accalia, Shar-Teel and even Dar, Taffic and Melora, and eventually Leina. All of them are very strong characters, and they will make you to act the way they want. In this particular case, Hrothgar may say anything about leaving via portal in Kuldahar or continuing to SH, but you will follow him where he leads. You know this already. You don't like his decision to send you to SH, but you have no choice. You can click and stop the game, and he can click on his temporal device and send you whenever he considers it proper. You simply have no choice, and this is the core of NeJ. This is all about that people even in real life have no choices. Yes, we can choose between apple juice or hot milk, between brunette or blond, between working hard or going to drink with friends, but are these really choices? No, these are called preferences. We are led by our life, by situations, by people around, and we cannot do anything, just to observe and realise something in the present cycle which "we occasionally call life". It will be repeated of course, decorations are changed a bit, our perception of different decorations will lead to different preferences. But don't delude yourself. We come to this world and nobody asks us if we want to come. We leave this world and nobody asks us if we want to leave. We are doing something for 60-70 years, two steps left, two steps right, 100 L of alcohol drunk, 100 kg of chocolate consumed, 3-4 kids which grow pretty fast, a couple of partners, a few problematic friends... Bum! The end. And now tell me where is your choice?

Quests in Halruaa are all playable by most of the NPC mages - Nalia, Aerie, Kachiko, Taffic. Edwin may do some quests but he is really a pain in the a**, don't rely upon him in Halruaa. If your character is mage, you can do the quests yourself, there is no checks for your class. Even fighter or thief can do this quests. But there are quests which require casting spells, so fighter deciding to take the mage quest should be prepared for anything unexpected.

I'd like to see the bug that you're reporting and detailed report on what and how you cause it, if confirmed.

I don't promise that I'll fix the problems of the core game, but I have put a note for future updates of Baldurdash. Thanks, Bill.

[Bill Bisco]

1. Yes, there was a warning. I assumed that warning was about getting items and
XP prior to entering the NeJ questline. I also assumed that you would return to the same portal you entered NeJ to get to and there would be no need for Jaheira and Minsc to stay trapped in their cells forever. Yes, I do like games that allow you to live with (and still allow you to complete the game with) the consequences of your decisions. If Trapped cellmates forever was your intention, then very well, I accept your design.

2. I just want to be explicitly clear on this. There is a lot of text implying that CHARNAME and the remaining party members can enter the Kuldahar portal:

All of the below texts imply that the portal can be entered.






The cursor changing implies this



The post Hrothgar exchange implies you are about to leave




And then...



Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All this dialogue and text about leaving and nothing happens. Nothing. No text about "What, why can't we enter?" No Game Over Screen. Nothing. I have a hard time believing that all of this text was written and implemented without the intention of the party being able to leave. If it is truly your intention that there be no choice about leaving NeJ before Severed Hand, then there should be no text allowing me to do so at all, imo. Otherwise, this feels very disjointed and incomplete.


When we complete the Severed Hand, we still have the option to return to the Kuldahar Portal. The text heavily implies that we can enter it.





If we're nice to Hrothgar, he'll want to go with us. The dialogue ends with him or Shar-Teel. There is nothing beyond that other than a poof and cutscene to the next area.

Or, we can tell Hrothgar that we don't trust him. And he doesn't like that and leaves. Nothing implies that we can't leave now.



We can click on the portal even while Hrothgar is exiting and we get the same dialogue as last time.



And then....



Nothing. Abosolutely nothing. We can click on the portal and we just get blanks


However, if we leave via the Astolabe, we get the following Text:



Notice the Black Box reference. At least here it's implied that we need the Astrolabe and the Black Box to continue. That is not the same for the Kuldahar portal. There is no text anywhere stating that we can't just go use the Kuldahar portal or Hrothgar stating "Haha, you need me and my Black Box to actually leave. It feels highly disjointed that there are text and implications that we can leave and yet we cannot and the game is broken and unfinishable as a result.

3. My Installation is GoG BG2+ ToB. Followed by Baldurdash and then NeJ3. I have explicitly avoided installing any other mods to avoid any possibility at all that potential issues are due to other mods.

Failed Mage Tests in Harluaa put you in permanent cutscene failed mode. I'll try to find the exact one that put me in there.

Alright, Failing the Invoker Test for Theodoran. Simply exit the area with the spiders as soon as you enter it and talk to Theodoran, you will be stuck in Cutscene mode.



4. A General Note on Mage Tests

Perhaps it would be better to have the Mage Tests involve the person who speaks to the "test giver". You could add in dialogue with the tutor asking "Who will take the Test" and you'd select which party member would take it. I much prefer this method as it it generic and allows one to have CHARNAMEs that are not part Mage. For a multiplayer game, you can't let Player2 or further actually take the tests.

This also allows you to have modded Characters (like Erevain) without having to come up with NPC specific text for all of them. If there's interest, then the NPC can be coded for unique reactions.

This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: Sep 7 2015, 01:54 AM

[Vlad]

the game is broken and unfinishable as a result

There is a difference between the technically broken game and then game that is stopped by NPCs intentionally. I think you'll be quite disappointed with the ending of NeJ3, and I imagine all the comments that you'll put here. But I like it the way it is is written and implemented. All the screens from the portal at Kuldahar make me even more convinced that this is how it should be. You should feel this disappointment that in spite of the fact you really want the option to come back and all NPCs say that wow, we go back, actually you won't come, and there are no clues as to why and how and again why. Great!

Ah, and of course you can break the cutscene by clicking on the trigger for the second time the moment between the end of the dialogue and when it is about to start. Well, you can break many cutscenes in the vanilla game this way. You heard about updating variables in scripts and so on. Right?

Halruaa. Well, there are options of choosing the mage who is going to do the tests. I guess you have none of them in your party. Try bringing Nalia or Taffic, and you'll have the corresponding options in the dialogues with the mage specialists. I'll look into the test of Theodoran though. I must admit that we have tested this part many many times, and never encountered this problem. But if there is a bug, I'll fix it, of course.

This post has been edited by Vlad: Sep 7 2015, 07:37 AM

[Senka]

I'll look into the test of Theodoran though. I must admit that we have tested this part many many times, and never encountered this problem. But if there is a bug, I'll fix it, of course.

Bitter spiders? Never have any problem failing this test. You need to patiently wait until Teodoran will teleport away. And don't click! ))))

[Bill Bisco]

As I've already stated Vlad, as a player the imlementation feels very clunky. If you wish to give the player the effect of "Oh crap, we can't go anywhere without Hrothgar" then that needs to be readily apparent and stated explicitly. Right now it feels like I can't travel back home because the mod is broken or unfinished.


1.
Also, I cannot escape out of this area at all: There is no exit. Sometimes this happens. Do note too that if any enemy dies nearby a sarcophagus, you cannot ever retrieve those items.



2. Nothing on the Ring of Might Description says Mage Only



This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: Sep 12 2015, 12:23 PM

[Senka]

Right now it feels like I can't travel back home because the mod is broken or unfinished.

Any game can be broken. You know this already don't you? And if you don't want to play mod' scenario... just uninstall the NEJ.

Also, I cannot escape out of this area at all: There is no exit. Sometimes this happens. Do note too that if any enemy dies nearby a sarcophagus, you cannot ever retrieve those items.

You didn't read walkthrough?

Nothing on the Ring of Might Description says Mage Only

This ring is not ready yet

[Bill Bisco]

3. Failing Phineas's Test puts you in Cutscene Mode

[Senka]

How do you do that?
(use MM after pierce magic. And read walkthrough!)

Vlad is in vacation now. He will return early October.

[Bill Bisco]

Senka,

Quite easy. Don't have any protections on. Just talk to him and he'll cast spells at you and hurt you and then he'll tell you that you failed. After you finish talking with Phineas you'll be in permanent cutscene mode and the game is broken.

Ring of Might Quest Question:

So after talking with the Water Elementalist Lady she tells me to seek out the Air, Fire, and Earth Students. The walkthrough tells me that they're near the students' quarters, but I cannot find them. I have searched all through this Harluaan Academy with no luck. Where are they exactly supposed to be?

[Senka]

Just talk to him and he'll cast spells at you and hurt you and then he'll tell you that you failed.

Didn't you listen what he said? Prepare yourself. You need to cast globe of Invulnerability. As wrote in walkthrough.

Where are they exactly supposed to be?

There is a lot of threads with such questions...
Genevera is in the building of the Conjurer Tests.
Owain is in building of the Illusion test.
Aulay is in the gallery.

[Bill Bisco]

Nope, absolutely no one in the gallery. Note that the Gallery and the place where the Illusion test takes place are the same place according to the walkthrough.



Just a note I auto failed after talking to the teacher here. I hope that these Ring of Might Elementalists aren't tied to this teacher's appearance as no one is spawning here.

Note too Senka that I try to play the game without a walkthrough and if I am stuck I may refer to one. I just try to play the game as it is.

[Senka]

I hope that these Ring of Might Elementalists aren't tied to this teacher's appearance as no one is spawning here.

No he isn't. As I said before smth wrong with your installation

Note that the Gallery and the place where the Illusion test takes place are the same place according to the walkthrough.

Didn't you see cut-scene there? Between RayVon and another person?

Note too Senka that I try to play the game without a walkthrough and if I am stuck I may refer to one. I just try to play the game as it is.

All tutors are very clear in their quests. Why you constantly fail? Save-load always helps.

This post has been edited by Senka: Sep 13 2015, 02:23 PM

[Vlad]

Bill, I must admit there is something in what you say. However, most of the problems you report are connected to intentionally breaking the plot. One of such invalid actions is for example, killing NPCs who give you quests. I agree the engine is far away from being perfect, but we have to live with that somehow. One of the methods to preserve the integrity and workability of the engine is not to break it intentionally by doing invalid actions or something which may result in invalid actions. This is all about BG2 and partially BG1. These games are far away from Fallout or Arcanum where basically you can do what you want ignoring many quests, NPCs without breaking the main game. In Fallout, I remember I've just cleaned areas without thinking or reading much. Here is a completely different game.