Interjection during Quest Options

[Mathrim Cauthon]

Would it be possible to give the NPC some interjection during the new quests, as there is in BG2 and in BG1 NPC ? I know this would need a lot of works, since there are many NPC in BG1, and that it may not work with original BG1, but it would make the mod still more interesting.

Well, that's just a suggestion

[SirLancelot]

You don´t have Tutu installed, have you? BG1NPC brings tons of banters packed with it.

Anyway, i think it could be implemented, but i´m fairly sure that Baronius would be glad to do it if you write the banters for him. (the text, not the code) Don´t forget BG1QuestPack features: 100 quest are a not a joke!

[Baronius]

It is not possible, because BG1QP must be compatible with original BG1 either where there are no BG2-type banters (several players don't use Tutu). However I remember several banters in BG1 too (Jaheira-Khalid, druids-Jaheira etc. etc.) -- could such be added to BG1QP AND would work both with Tutu and stock BG1?

Btw BG1NPC project adds a lot of excellent banters, so if it is not possible in BG1QP, players don't have to fear! Btw BG1QP is planned to be compatible with BG1NPC, I think it doesn't need anything special but we'll talk about this with the BG1NPC authors anyway!

[Salk]

I have always wondered why people would want to mistify Baldur's Gate's original look and status. The fix packs and the modding are more than welcome. They are useful and have a meaning. But I would never install BG1TuTu on my PC. I have played both Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2. I just say here: I am playing number one over and over considering it a great masterpiece. I have played the sequel a couple of times and then I even sold it. It simply couldnt compare. It was not possible to even share the same shelf together with A+ quality games. That's my opinion, of course just to mean Baronius is totally right pointing out that there are many players that don't use BG1TuTu...Thanks again Baronius!

[Baronius]

Right, we're making our mods BG1Tutu-compatible because lots of players play BG1Tutu. The most of these people are from the (new) generation which has started with BG2. Those who have been there from the beginning (BG1), like me, have different viewpoint usually. I still find BG1 better in graphical respect as well (beside a lot of other things).

[jastey]

On my computer, BG1 has a resolution that gives me a window of the size of a stamp, with a sight-radius of approx. 5 "ingame-meter". I like the BG1 graphic, too, but playing under these conditions is rather inconvenient. Still I like the talk-options of BGII, and sometimes it's more fun to mod for BGII because of the additional triggers. Let's say it like this: Modding for BG1 is sometimes far more challenging.

On topic: We have to discuss in the team whether we will include NPC reactions to the quests. For someone playing BG1 original version they would be strange, as there are none in the rest of the game. For someone playing the Tutu-version with installed BG1 NPC project the missing interjections would be strange. Maybe there's a way to make this optional - or only for the Tutu version. (We have a double-Thread to this topic, so I'm kind of repeating myself. )

[Salk]

Hello! My two cents opinion, as usual...Interaction per se is a great thing. But I play only the original BG1 game with fixpacks and Mods and I love it the way it is. I play with my own party (I create my own six characters then I start a "virtual" multiplayer session so that I can really have a party I am fond of) so I am missing all the subquests and dialogues that are related to the NPC who can join the party. I think that working of NPC banters is not bad as general concept but it steps off the path of the original game. I feel like they would apply much more naturally to the sequel. The short of it is: I'd rather not put (a big, by the way) effort in that direction as some players, like me, would find such innovations out of place. There are many possibilities of doing such experiments on BG2. Baldurs Gate 1 has its own identity and background which, I think, should not be revolutionized. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Salk: Oct 26 2004, 07:52 AM

[Creepin]

I just thought that an opposite opinion may be helpful somehow to keep things balansed

Well, I'm one of those fortunate, who was playing BG1 first, all this time when there was no BG2 at all Yet while some aspects of gameplay was, IMO, better in BG1 and some - in BG2, it's rather obvious to me that GUI and engine as whole is implemented far better in sequel, so since the time when TuTu emerges it became the only way I was playing BG1. Furthermore, the fact that some things wasn't present in vanilla BG1 didn't mean that the game will be better without this things at all. BG1NPC is great in it's way, but it only adds interjections to already existing quests, so if new quests of QuestPack will lack them, it would be something... really sad

[jastey]

Thanks for your opinions, btw! As I said, we are aware of the fact that there are players favouring one or the other possibility. I'm sure we will find a satisfying solution to it.

[Domi]

Hello! My two cents opinion, as usual...Interaction per se is a great thing. But I play only the original BG1 game with fixpacks and Mods and I love it the way it is. I play with my own party (I create my own six characters then I start a "virtual" multiplayer session so that I can really have a party I am fond of) so I am missing all the subquests and dialogues that are related to the NPC who can join the party. I think that working of NPC banters is not bad as general concept but it steps off the path of the original game. I feel like they would apply much more naturally to the sequel. The short of it is: I'd rather not put (a big, by the way) effort in that direction as some players, like me, would find such innovations out of place. There are many possibilities of doing such experiments on BG2. Baldurs Gate 1 has its own identity and background which, I think, should not be revolutionized. Thanks! 

I find difficult to understand the nature of your complaint - if you are playing with your own party, why do you object to the mods that add extended dialogue content? It does not effect you as a player at all.

Other players, like me, are attracted to BGI joinable characters and want to know more about them. Much more. Thus I want *more* banter in BGI, romances in BGI, interjections in BGI, new quests in BGI and 'filling the gaps' stories in BGI.

I believe that while BGII was an inferrior game to BGI, it had added the immersive potential BGI was starting to tap into; interjections are an integral part of this immersiveness, and they do not destroy BGI feel.

As a matter of fact, the very first interjections were introduced in BGI, not BGII. For example, druids in Claockwood recognised and speaked to Jaheira/Faldorn. Berrun recognised Khalid, Jaheira, Xzar and Montaron. Angelo recognised and speaked to Shar-Teel.

And honestly, do install TUTU. It would give you better resolution, path finding and missile stacking. That is well worth converting for. The rest (like kitting PC and NPCs and installing TUTU compatible mods for additional content) is optional, and depend on every person's preference. Now, if you just want more of the same, stick to bug fixes. Because every other mod, quest or dialogue-based adds new NPCs and puts words in their mouth. Because, you know, they are supposed to represent living beings, not target practice and meatshields.

This post has been edited by Domi: Oct 26 2004, 09:54 PM

[jastey]

As we can see: Different opinions all around. I think we all agree that using BG1Tutu and adding all the extra banters and dialogues by mods actually *does* change the appearance of the game - because if it wouldn't, why would you take the effort?

But whether it is altered for better or for worse is a decision purely based on opinion and taste of the player, and here everyone has it's own preferences, which he / she doesn't need to justify at all. (That's the good thing about taste: You can't argue about it! It's just something personal. )

The disussion whether BG1Tutu and extra dialogues should be used or not is a very interesting discussion, as there are good arguments for both ways of playing BG1: original or altered, and I guess there could be threads filled with discussing this - although not this one, please. The original question was whether the BG1 Questpack will introduce NPC-reactions to the added quests, and your stated opinions help us to find a good solution here.

[Salk]

As we can see: Different opinions all around. I think we all agree that using BG1Tutu and adding all the extra banters and dialogues by mods actually *does* change the appearance of the game - because if it wouldn't, why would you take the effort?

Exactly! We all agree about that! The fact is that we dont need/want (I speak for myself and people who share my same point of view) Baldur's Gate to become Baldur's Gate 2. That's just another game. It's a sequel and obviously there are many things in common the first installment. I even dare say there are a couple of things that I would classify as improvements but overall I feel like it's been a step backwards. The atmosphere, the challenge, the plot of Baldur's Gate 1 are definitely unmatched. Even the graphic itself which is considered so much better (whereas some thinks BG1's is outdated...) is nothing special according to me. The beauty of the forests and of the dungeons or the small touches of real art one can see and admire in the scenarios of Baldurs Gate 1 are not present anymore or, perhaps, are no more so fascinating. The only really good option was, as I mentioned, that one can play up to 800x600.

But whether it is altered for better or for worse is a decision purely based on opinion and taste of the player, and here everyone has it's own preferences, which he / she doesn't need to justify at all. (That's the good thing about taste: You can't argue about it! It's just something personal. )

That's true, but just partly! One might discuss where the borders of art and the limits of kitch lay, we might discuss whether or not something is objectively beautiful or awful. I believe that not everything can be appreciated by everybody. When you go watching a movie, when you read a book, when you play a game (our case), there are several layers of introspection. One might stop at the surface, one might dig deeper and get more of it. One might know how "to read it", one might not.

The disussion whether BG1Tutu and extra dialogues should be used or not is a very interesting discussion, as there are good arguments for both ways of playing BG1: original or altered, and I guess there could be threads filled with discussing this - although not this one, please. The original question was whether the BG1 Questpack will introduce NPC-reactions to the added quests, and your stated opinions help us to find a good solution here.

As I mentioned, I believe the extra effort is not worth it. I know that things wouldnt change directly for me because I would not take advantage nor limitations by having NPC reactions implemented to added quests. I just speak trying to estimate the enormous amount of extra work (plus possible extra bugs to find and correct) such a choice would bring and if I was in the author's shoes I wouldnt just bother. And if somebody things that the extra banters and interactions are the only factors that gives depth to a game well...I can just say I totally disagree. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Salk: Oct 27 2004, 11:45 AM

[jastey]

Sorry if you felt offended by my post! I actually tried to post something that gives way to your *and* Domi's opinion.
The amount of additional modding for such NPC interjections wouldn't be that great, btw, but you are right with the debugging, of course.
OK, you stated your opinion, Domi and others stated theirs, and we will try to comfort you all. This is possible, don't worry.


I'm repeating my plea of keeping this thread on topic. Thanks!

[SimDing0]

And if somebody things that the extra banters and interactions are the only factors that gives depth to a game well...I can just say I totally disagree. Thanks!

It's not the only factor that adds depth, but surely you can't argue that it actually detracts from the game? And if it doesn't detract, why not have it there?

[Domi]

As I mentioned, I believe the extra effort is not worth it. I know that things wouldnt change directly for me because I would not take advantage nor limitations by having NPC reactions implemented to added quests. I just speak trying to estimate the enormous amount of extra work (plus possible extra bugs to find and correct) such a choice would bring and if I was in the author's shoes I wouldnt just bother. And if somebody things that the extra banters and interactions are the only factors that gives depth to a game well...I can just say I totally disagree. Thanks!

As Jastey have mentioned the amount of work is not significant - it is not about adding an interjection for all 25 NPCs after each responce (which is indeed an enormous and unnecessary undertaking), but about adding it where it counts, so that your noble ranger did not just stand there when you have chosen to slaughter the village, their flocks and burn forests and houses. It is handled with ease by WeiDU - you either use CHAIN when responding or EXTERN into NPC's responce adding in extra PC choice when coding - it's as easy as an apple pie for even a below-average coder, such as I.

It will give people whose opinion differs from yours something that they are looking for - a party of living, breathing NPCs, not meatshields in IWD style.
IMO, the quest pack will loose out significantly if it does not account for NPCs personality, even if they take a narrow spectrum of the most popular NPCs (Imoen, Jaheira+Kh, Kivan, Branwen, Minsc+Dyn).

Does not it make you cringe when the non-joinable NPCs have more personality than joinable? That's a very bad inconsistency in the game environment. Nobody says that banters and interactions is the *only* factor - but it is a huge and a *very* important factor for those who prefer non-solo or quazi-solo (silent but deadly NPC) campagning.

It also will not change the game-play of the power-gamers and solo-campaigners. It won't slow down the mod release. So why not???

If writing is the problem I will gladly invest my time to help writing for this particular purpose. Heck, I will help with coding if that is *the* problem (once I am done with BG1NPC).

But please, please, do not discard the option that will beautify and enliven the pack; do not go backward on what the community had acheived by developping the excellent dialogue tools and the high standard for dialogue writing.

[Domi]

And another one - especially for Salk...

I love BG1. I loved it the day I saw it for the first time in 1999. I did not like BGII as much. This is the reason why I was fanatically working on BG1NPC project for two years; there were times when the hope was all but lost, there are times, when it feels like it's not worth it (just like you said - it's a great game; why bother?).

But than after hours on end of coding and debugging, I open up the game and...

I cannot tell you that it makes a huge, impactual difference...

I wish I could show it to you, how it feels when Imoen cries on Gorion's grave.

I wish I could show how it feels when Xzar tries to take away Carsa's jar or when Kivan confronts Tazok. Or when Coran gets punched into his gface by Durlyle...

I wish I could show you how all these smallest and the silliest things put together make it... not BGII. They make it amazing.

This post has been edited by Domi: Oct 27 2004, 02:09 PM

[Salk]

Sorry if you felt offended by my post! I actually tried to post something that gives way to your *and* Domi's opinion.

No,no,not at all! I am sorry if I had used words that might have made you think so!! I was not offended by your post at all! Absolutely! I found it intelligent and conciliating! So thanks for it! I just meant to say (in short), that since BGQuestPack is *already* a huge project (which I know I will love - thanks again in advance!! ) I would avoid extra days of hard work debugging and checking everything works smoothly and perfectly. Perhaps NPC interactions would not mean a huge extra work but I just think of me playing BG1 with some mods on. I found the most bugs in dialogues scripts. Perhaps I am a little prejudiced here... But of course I want the team to feel free of developing a mod that will be liked and loved by all the community. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Salk: Oct 27 2004, 02:37 PM

[Salk]

And another one - especially for Salk...

I love BG1. I loved it the day I saw it for the first time in 1999. I did not like BGII as much. This is the reason why I was fanatically working on BG1NPC project for two years; there were times when the hope was all but lost, there are times, when it feels like it's not worth it (just like you said - it's a great game; why bother?).

But than after hours on end of coding and debugging, I open up the game and...

I cannot tell you that it makes a huge, impactual difference...

I wish I could show it to you, how it feels when Imoen cries on Gorion's grave.

I wish I could show how it feels when Xzar tries to take away Carsa's jar or when Kivan confronts Tazok. Or when Coran gets punched into his gface by Durlyle...

I wish I could show you how all these smallest and the silliest things put together make it... not BGII. They make it amazing.

Dear Demi, I am not at all against what you prospect in your post! Not at all! I am a RPG fan and I have been such for many years and believe me: every RPG *loves* interaction! I do believe it's a very important side of any RPG and it does add depth to it. What I don't like are essentially two things when it comes to Baldurs Gate 1. First: one must have a specific party member in the group at a specific place (perhaps specific time) to just have something happen. I never liked so much dispersion and I do think we are in front of a big dispersion here. I cannot play the game one hundred times to see if NPC X will just do something or start a new dialogue *if* I am in Area Y. Second: sometimes dialogues banters can, like in Baldurs Gate 2, worsen the overall feeling of the game. I am not so fond of romances and other situations when the game reminds me of a reality show. I love a good, well written dialogue and I thought that with fixpacks on, Baldurs Gate 1 was superior to its sequel *even* under that aspect. But I do take your and many other's point: you are right to write your own opinions here and I am happy to confront and discuss mine with you all. I just want to say "sorry" to jastey if I had, once more, pushed this OT forward. Thanks and good luck to the developing team!

This post has been edited by Salk: Oct 27 2004, 02:51 PM

[Domi]

I am a RPG fan and I have been such for many years and believe me: every RPG *loves* interaction!

Out of curiosity, a piece of trivia:

Do you know that you can select kits and classes for your BG1 original characters with TUTU?
Do you know that you can ajust their stats, classes, portraits etc whichever way you want with simple modding tools?
Now, knowing this, why do you still prefer the multiplayer NPCs who say nothing but their select sounds?

First: one must have a specific party member in the group at a specific place (perhaps specific time) to just have something happen. I never liked so much dispersion and I do think we are in front of a big dispersion here. I cannot play the game one hundred times to see if NPC X will just do something or start a new dialogue *if* I am in Area Y.

I think you have mistook the point - the point is not to see 'all that could possibly happen'. The point is to saturate game so that no matter what is your party's composition, you get interesting and sometimes unexpected dialogue options.

Some people do play mods to collect every nugget of the 'new' content. I do not share this POV. I believe in seeing what comes naturally while playing. Except when I am testing, of course.

The BW's pack takes any NPC restrictions on content away, by gearing all quests to 'always happening'. Adding a line or two in would not rob a single-campaign player, but will reward the traditional party-player.

Second: sometimes dialogues banters can, like in Baldurs Gate 2, worsen the overall feeling of the game. I am not so fond of romances and other situations when the game reminds me of a reality show.

Yes, but the other side of the coin is that they can improve it as well. True, you might not like a specifique NPC interpretation. But the one that 'clicks' would make the experience of playing with that NPC incredibly rewarding.

I assume that 'romance' was your example of the banter that worsens the feeling of the game?

Again, I think you are mixing up the "have to" and "can, if I chose to" ideas. They are optional, both in BGII and in the mods. It is actually a huge improvment over books, where no matter what you, reader, want the characters would fall in love with each-other (or not, whetever the author's preference). I love romances. I assume that anyone who does not can click that "I am sorry, but I do not want to romance you" option in the player-initiated dialogues. One click is all it takes. Any time you want.

BTW, romances in BGII was one (if not the) most popular features. Mods helped many a female player to avoid the love-hate releationship with Anomen

This post has been edited by Domi: Oct 27 2004, 03:23 PM

[NiGHTMARE]

I should probably point out that romance came into existence hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of years before reality TV shows came into existence, and the people involved in said romance were not confined by scripts .

Also, the typical reality TV "romance" basically consists of a couple of lusty looks between the concerned parties, one of them saying 'lets shag!' to the other, the act, and both of them regretting it afterwards. None of the BG2 or BG1NPC romances particularly take this path!

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Oct 27 2004, 04:05 PM