Unfixed bugs of vanilla game, Send them here if you find any Options

[Arkain]

Well, afaik the improved Sendai included in Oversight uses PIs, apart from other cheesy methods - varies in that you determine the difficulty of the battle via the actual difficulty of the game.
But that's a moot point anyway, as IA uses it's own component. I think so at least. Didn't get there yet.

Now, what would this new spell look like?

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jun 8 2007, 02:24 PM

[rbeverjr]

What if I leave "Simulacrum" as it is, but replace "Project Image" with an entirely new custom spell? (the drawback of this solution is that if any other creature--perhaps from some other mod-- is coded to cast project image, he will cast that new spell on himself instead. This is the main reason I didn't go for this solution in the first place.)

Personally, I horded the 2 green protect from magic scrolls and resisted the urge to use them through PI. I may try out that improved ring of gaxx someday.

Simulacrum may not be so much less powerful than PI. Imagine the maxxed out FMC that casts simulacrum followed by restoration on the simulacrum. Now we have 2 maxxed out FMC ready to do battle!

I've not used Simulacrum at all yet and have used PI rarely. I wonder if I will need them later in the game though.

[Sikret]

If we eventually agree on the main idea of replacing the spell with a new one, I think the new spell can be a near spell of the same school. For example, an improved version of the mislead spell comes to mind. It can be names "Greater Mislead" or "Improved Mislead" or something like that (we can decide its differences with the 6th level spell). Another idea can be the Auramaster's "Perfect Camouflage" spell. I can make a mage version of the spell. A third idea can be a spell which is a mixture of "Imp. Invisiblity + Blur + Mirror Image" all in one package.

All that said, I think our main problem for now is to decide whether we want to replace the spell or not. If we decide that we want, we can think more about the exact features of the new spell. I'm still leaned towards omitting the scrolls rather than replacing the spell, but it's only a slight preferance. I'm open to suggestions.

[rbeverjr]

If we eventually agree on the main idea of replacing the spell with a new one, I think the new spell can be a near spell of the same school. For example, an improved version of the mislead spell comes to mind. It can be names "Greater Mislead" or "Improved Mislead" or something like that (we can decide its differences with the 6th level spell). Another idea can be the Auramaster's "Perfect Camouflage" spell. I can make a mage version of the spell. A third idea can be a spell which is a mixture of "Imp. Invisiblity + Blur + Mirror Image" all in one package.

All that said, I think our main problem for now is to decide whether we want to replace the spell or not. If we decide that we want, we can think more about the exact features of the new spell. I'm still leaned towards omitting the scrolls rather than replacing the spell, but it's only a slight preferance. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm not the tactical expert that others are, but so far I've used PI mostly to conserve spells. Let the PI do any prebuffing and pre-summoning to the limit. For sure, the enemy will cast True Sight and destroy the image as soon as the battle has begun. Personally, I haven't felt the need for more defense with my mages. I've always been wanting more offense than just summon and buff. Further, Perfect Camouflage (a very nice spell, by the way) and Immunity Abjuration (I'd never trade the later spell for the former) used together would allow 2 school immunities. I still lean toward leaving things alone.

[thetruth]

Yes I agree with leonidas. IA has already modified the tough enemies other mods change and since in the next versions almost all of the original game's enemies will be modified I don't think it's a problem to make a new version of the PI.

If we eventually agree on the main idea of replacing the spell with a new one, I think the new spell can be a near spell of the same school. For example, an improved version of the mislead spell comes to mind. It can be names "Greater Mislead" or "Improved Mislead" or something like that (we can decide its differences with the 6th level spell). Another idea can be the Auramaster's "Perfect Camouflage" spell. I can make a mage version of the spell. A third idea can be a spell which is a mixture of "Imp. Invisiblity + Blur + Mirror Image" all in one package.

Yes having as a base the Mislead clone is good.
The name can be again Project Image I don't think that you need to change that (even if it will be an entirely new spell). Or isn't it possible to give an existing name to a new spell?

So on this new clone someone will not be able to use the quick-slots, right?

Also can you make it impossible to put in a Chain Contigency?
Maybe with a similar "mechanism" to that of the SI spell (can't put it in a CC)?

But I like also the idea of a spell similar to the "Perfect Camouflage" of the Auramaster.

[Sikret]

Further, Perfect Camouflage (a very nice spell, by the way) and Immunity Abjuration (I'd never trade the later spell for the former) used together would allow 2 school immunities.

Very good observation, rbeverjr!

So, the mage version of Perfect Camouflage is omitted from the list of options (if we decide to replace the spell). Let's wait to see what others will suggest.

[thetruth]

Simulacrum may not be so much less powerful than PI. Imagine the maxxed out FMC that casts simulacrum followed by restoration on the simulacrum. Now we have 2 maxxed out FMC ready to do battle!

The main difference is that the PI can cast the exact numbers of spells of the caster (9-level spells included which can be abused most).
Even if you cast Restoration on the Simulacrum you cannot have more spells than the level-drained clone had.

And yes F/M types (and not only) can use them in melee with a better THACO if you cast Restoration on them, but you can anyway cast T.Transformation on the clone and then use scrolls of PfMWs (since you don't use the real ones) and the result will be the same (Restoration or not).

Maybe later we can find a solution for the Simulacrum spell as well.

[thetruth]

Further, Perfect Camouflage (a very nice spell, by the way) and Immunity Abjuration (I'd never trade the later spell for the former) used together would allow 2 school immunities.

Very good observation, rbeverjr!

So, the mage version of Perfect Camouflage is omitted from the list of options (if we decide to replace the spell). Let's wait to see what others will suggest.

But if you wanted you could always make the Mage version of the spell to belong to the Illusion school. Fits nicely with the idea of the spell IMO.

[Sikret]

The problem rbeverjr noted is that Perfect camouflage includes SI:Divination as one of its effects. Now if we make a mage version of it, the mage will cast it together with SI:Abjuration and he rule of "Multiple SIs don't stack" will be violated. Of course, there are solutions for the problem. For example, I can add immunity to SI to the new spell and immunity to the new spell to all types of SI. I will keep this possibility as a final resort if we don't find a good mislead-type alternative.

[leonidas]

My favourite solution thus far is the new mislead spell.

I say, give the mislead clone the ability to cast certain spells (instead of a direct copy of the player's spell book), based on the level of the caster, and the inability to cast certain lvl 9 spells and HLAs.

That will retain the spell's functionality as a spell-sparing device and circumvent the major exploits.

[Sikret]

If noone has any particular reason to disagree, I prefer the "Perfect Camouflage" spell as a replacement for "Project Image". Of course, I will make sure that the spell will not stack with SI. The spell grants Improved Invisibility + Protection from divination spells simultaneously (for 20 rounds) though it won't grant the AC and save bonuses of the oridinary Imp. Invisibility (so there is no need to worry about exploits of casting the new spell together with Imp. Invisibility or with itself cumulatively to have absurdly high AC and save bonuses). A successful remove magic can dispel the effects of the spell as you can't have this spell together with SI:Abjuration. What's everyone's opinion? Any objections or suggestions before I implement the idea and add it to V4.3?

@leonidas

I decided to give up the idea of an Improved Mislead spell as it was really problematic.

[rbeverjr]

If noone has any particular reason to disagree, I prefer the "Perfect Camouflage" spell as a replacement for "Project Image". Of course, I will make sure that the spell will not stack with SI. The spell grants Improved Invisibility + Protection from divination spells simultaneously (for 20 rounds) though it won't grant the AC and save bonuses of the oridinary Imp. Invisibility (so there is no need to worry about exploits of casting the new spell together with Imp. Invisibility or with itself cumulatively to have absurdly high AC and save bonuses). A successful remove magic can dispel the effects of the spell as you can't have this spell together with SI:Abjuration. What's everyone's opinion? Any objections or suggestions before I implement the idea and add it to V4.3?

@leonidas

I decided to give up the idea of an Improved Mislead spell as it was really problematic.

As I pointed out in my previous post, I don't like that idea because I will not give up SI:Abjuration for Perfect Camouflage. For me, this change will be the same as just taking away Project Image and simply serves to further weaken pure mages. I like PI simply because it supplies extra spell power, which means I can have more spells for the very long battles of IA. Even though I have used PI rarely, I hope it's not done away with.

[thetruth]

If noone has any particular reason to disagree, I prefer the "Perfect Camouflage" spell as a replacement for "Project Image". Of course, I will make sure that the spell will not stack with SI. The spell grants Improved Invisibility + Protection from divination spells simultaneously (for 20 rounds) though it won't grant the AC and save bonuses of the oridinary Imp. Invisibility (so there is no need to worry about exploits of casting the new spell together with Imp. Invisibility or with itself cumulatively to have absurdly high AC and save bonuses). A successful remove magic can dispel the effects of the spell as you can't have this spell together with SI:Abjuration. What's everyone's opinion? Any objections or suggestions before I implement the idea and add it to V4.3?

No if the spell has only these abilities it's just like the common SI: Divination (+ you add I.Invisibility later).
So why should anyone prefer it to a 5 level spell?

Maybe if you added some more abilities/immunities to the spell it would become more useful. But I can't think of anything good right now.

[Raven]

As I pointed out in my previous post, I don't like that idea because I will not give up SI:Abjuration for Perfect Camouflage. For me, this change will be the same as just taking away Project Image and simply serves to further weaken pure mages. I like PI simply because it supplies extra spell power, which means I can have more spells for the very long battles of IA. Even though I have used PI rarely, I hope it's not done away with.

SI: abjuration is not needed in all battles; there are enough enemies I came across who did not use remove magic very much but would make use of True Sight whenever I cast improved invisibility that SI divination was useful. Although I guess only after fighting a particular mage do you discover whether (s)he uses remove magic much or not - on the first runthrough of a particular battle I would stick to SI abjuration.

So I think a spell combining invisibility and SI: div. like this would be useful. Also, Sikret, will you be scripting opponents to cast this new spell (seems like a good idea)?

EDIT: I agree though with thetruth's comments in the post below that the spell is a little weak for a level 7.

This post has been edited by Raven: Jun 9 2007, 04:46 PM

[Sikret]

The spell is also a 7th level spell in Auramaster's spell collection. I don't think that it is weak as a 7th level spell, because it practically casts two spells simultaneously (not only opens two free slots of 4th and 5th level spells for other choices, but also saves one round of casting time, because if you wanted to cast those two spells normally you needed to wate two rounds which can be very important in the middle of fight.)

Also remember the 6th level clerical spell "Wondrous Recall" which can only bring back to memeory one single spell of lower levels. Compare them together.

Nonetheless, if you can think of an additional effect to be added to the spell (which suits well with its spirit), let me know. The spell's name doesn't need to be identical with the druidic version. So, if you can think of a good effect to be added to it we may change the spell and its name as well. I also suggested other spell effects in my previous posts. For example, we can drop immunity to divination and add other effects instead or we can keep these two effects and add mirro image to it as well (though in this case the name should be changed perhaps).

[Arkain]

Mhm... anyone here played IWD?

In D&D 3.X (I've got mostly no clue of the former D&D versions) there are spells which can be used to summon quasi-real creatures. Shadow Conjuration spells. The creature could be likely anything but must be within the spells limits. Such as having only 80% of the real things power. These spells were implented in IWD (mabye only in IWD2, I don't really remember). So one could have "yet another" summoning spell on level 7, but in fact a rather useful one. Instead of only relying on mordys. One could summon weaker versions of strong creatures, controllable demons and the like for example.
What about this idea? As most summons aren't really worth it in IA (or rather in general...) this could maybe actually make a change, as to not only have cannon fodder but creatures which are somewhat powerful, other than a planetar, elemental prince, noble djinn or whatever.

The original spell can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowCon...tionGreater.htm

[edit] On the other hand: Why not take a general look at spells found in other IE games? Protective spells such as Seven Eyes could prove to be a useful replacement for PI, which is a powerful spell if one uses it accordingly. [/edit]

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jun 9 2007, 06:04 PM

[thetruth]

What about adding to the SI:Div. and I.Invisibility (actually it's not I.Inv. since you don't get the bonuses to AC and s.throws) also Blur + Mirror Image?

Still against enemies who cast R.Magic it will not be very effective (unless if you make the enemies to waste it on other party members).

Can you add also another ability to the spell, like immunity to spell casting failure + undispelable for the duration of the spell? (similar to a Force spells ability)
If yes then it would made the spell much more useful in some situations IMO.

[Sikret]

With the XP cap remover Simulacrum spell is as cheesy as Project Image, because the clone can cast 9th level spells. So, we need to replace Simulacrum with a new spell too. Since, there are very few good 8th level spells in the game, I think repacing it with a powerful summoning spell won't be a bad idea. Another good idea can be a necromantic regeneration spell, though the current best 8th level spell in the game (ADHW) is already a necromantic one, so perhaps the summoning spell idea may be better. The difficult thing about creating a summoning 8th level spell is to decide what it should summon to be more powerful than lower level summoned creatures but less powerful than a planetar. What do you think?

Some ideas:
1- "Construct Golem" spell. Summons Flesh Golems when the caster's level is 16-19 and summons Stone Golems when the caster's level is 20 or above. (Needless to add that summoning Clay golems is not a good idea because they are immune to all weapon types except the blunt and the spell can then be exploited).
2- An "Improved Spider Spawn" spell which summons the new types of spiders Improved Anvil adds to the game (the type of spider can vary with the caster's level)
3- "Improved Conjure Elemental": A mage version of the druidic spell in which the mage won't need to have any mental combat with the elemental. The elemental can also be 24HD.
5- "Summon Elite Djinni" (summons a more powerful djinni than what the 7th level spellsummons, though not as powerful as what the Ring of Greater Djinni Summoning can conjure)

For now, I slightly lean towards option 3.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jun 10 2007, 12:25 PM

[Clown]

Quite like the second option(No Ghost Spiders) there for the summoning spell if we have to lose both PI and simul but would really prefer if at least simul could stay.
The opportunity for exploitation of simul is very limited as you need some seriously high levels to be able to pull that off. It will be a very small minority of people who choose to abuse it and probabaly not the people improved anvil is aimed at, seems to me removing it is a bit uneccesary plus i like the spell.

This post has been edited by Clown: Jun 10 2007, 02:17 PM

[coaster]

The trouble with most summons in IA are that they generally last about 5 seconds against the new enemies. Mages just Death Spell them, melee fighters chunk them with one hit. The vanilla golems won't really cut it I don't think, it would have to be gem or coin golems I think for such a spell to be worthwhile. Otherwise the spiders or djinni are OK I guess. Alternatively what about summon Skeleton Lord? (although I suppose this would be necromantic also).

Will these summons be gated in and so immune to death spell?