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> Comments on Riskbreaker Kit, Topic split by Sikret
lroumen
post Feb 12 2008, 10:32 AM
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The Riskbreaker is extremely interesting, but he seems more like a chore to keep alive. I have some ideas on how to play with him (I started a quick game to try out some things), but he could use a fun upgradeable ring and/or amulet that provides some protection options to take him out of the continuous baby-sitting bin. Without such a bonus, I believe that the riskbreaker will not be played. People should have an incentive to play him. Have people find the item in the early game, then have them upgrade it in the mid-game.

Perhaps the item should provide "Shield" thrice a day for when blur runs out after the so-manieth time the opponents cast "True Sight". Further bonuses might be something like +2AC, +2 saving throw vs spells, 10% resistance to fire/cold/magic damage. Later improve it to +3 and +15% or something.... minor bonuses add up through an entire game.
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lroumen
post Mar 5 2008, 04:03 PM
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The Riskbreaker is designed to go with 2-weapon style and use his own improved haste abilities to fight opponents. He has little defense except for Blur and a decent AC bonus every few levels.

Some quick math:
Considering this, his amount of attacks per round will probably be around 6 on average.
It depends on proficiencies and on the fact that his improved haste is not always up.
I'm guessing that he has a good enough THAC0 to hit tough monsters for about 3-4 times per round.
15% chance to gain a bonus would then be around once every two rounds, hence quite often.
Against bad AC foes, the occurrence is higher since you hit more often each round (5-6 times).
That is slightly worrying.
The AC decrease is fine, the 20HP heal is fine, but I'm concerned that if Hard Hit triggers too often, the bonus damage becomes unrealistic.

There are some possibilities to make it seemingly more balanced.
1. Lower the conditional damage so that it becomes 10d4+4 or make it 5d8+8. To me, that is already an astonishing amount of bonus damage.
2. Lower the chance to 10%.

The rest of the abilities look fine. Chain Breaker Stance may seem too powerful to people, but considering that you gain less improved haste abilities throughout your leveling than that of the previous riskbreaker version, that particular bonus of Chain Breaker Stance is fine.
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Raven
post Mar 5 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE(lroumen @ Mar 5 2008, 04:03 PM) *
There are some possibilities to make it seemingly more balanced.
1. Lower the conditional damage so that it becomes 10d4+4 or make it 5d8+8. To me, that is already an astonishing amount of bonus damage.
2. Lower the chance to 10%.

I agree. I think the combination of GWW with 'Hard Hit' and a nasty melee weapon would be too powerful with 10d8+8 bonus damage happening 15% of the time.

Btw what kind of damage is the 'Hard Hit'?

Also does the Regeneration of 12 hp per round from the Chain Breaker Stance include the doubling from the Improved Haste? Or will it work out to be 24 hp per round?
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Sikret
post Mar 6 2008, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE(Raven @ Mar 5 2008, 11:19 PM) *
I agree. I think the combination of GWW with 'Hard Hit' and a nasty melee weapon would be too powerful with 10d8+8 bonus damage happening 15% of the time.


I'm not sure if I have conveyed what I had in mind properly in the description. The 15% is the total probability of those three effects. Each of them has only 5% chance to happen and never more than one of them will happen. In other words, with each successful hit there is 15% chance for something to happen; if something is to happen, then each of those three effects have 33% chance to tbe the picked effect.

I agree that deciding over a optimal amount of additional damage the Hard Hit effect applies is really difficult. It shouldn't be too high to kill humans with a single shot but on the other hand, it should be high enough to be meaningful against golems. The average of 10d8+8 is 53. multiplying it by 5% (its chance to happen per hit) results in 2 and half damage average, which is still much lower than a Kensai's damage bonus at the same level.

With these explanations, do you still think that it is too much? Comments will be appreciated.

QUOTE
Btw what kind of damage is the 'Hard Hit'?
Crushing.

QUOTE
Also does the Regeneration of 12 hp per round from the Chain Breaker Stance include the doubling from the Improved Haste? Or will it work out to be 24 hp per round?


No, it's actually 6hp per round. It becomes effectively 12hp because of the Imp. Haste. However, as an afterthought, I think it's better to disconnect "Chain Breaker Stance" from Imp. Haste and replace its Imp. Haste with 25% resistance to physical damage and reduce its duration to 5 rounds.

The new revised list of advantages I am thinking about is something like this:
QUOTE
Advantages:
- +2 Bonus to save vs. Breath Weapon.
- Makes critical hits at a roll of 17 or better (instead of the usual 20).
- Gains "Blur" every 5 levels.
- +2 bonus to Armor class for every 6 levels.
- Gains "Improved Haste" at levels 11, 16 and 21.
- Once the Riskbreaker reaches level 15, each of his successful hits will have 15% chance to apply a random effect picked from the following pool: "Hard Hit" on target (applies 10D8 +8 additional damage), "Risk Increment" on target (applies -4 penalty to AC for 2 rounds), Healing the Riskbreaker for 20 hp.
- Gains the ability "Chain Breaker Stance" at levels 17 and 23.
- Gains the innate ability "Risk Decrement" at levels 18, 24 and 30.

Chain Breaker Stance:
This ability applies the following effects to the caster for 5 rounds:
- 25% resistance to physical damage
- 25 strength
- Regenerating 12 hp per round


Keep criticizing and sending your comments and suggestions please. It's not easy to balance this complex kit unless more people cooperate.

Also, do others agree with hankiwi that the 20 hp healing effect is not appropriate? If yes, do you suggest to omit it or to replace it with a new effect?


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lroumen
post Mar 6 2008, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE(Sikret @ Mar 6 2008, 04:37 PM) *
I'm not sure if I have conveyed what I had in mind properly in the description. The 15% is the total probability of those three effects. Each of them has only 5% chance to happen and never more than one of them will happen. In other words, with each successful hit there is 15% chance for something to happen; if something is to happen, then each of those three effects have 33% chance to tbe the picked effect.

I agree that deciding over a optimal amount of additional damage the Hard Hit effect applies is really difficult. It shouldn't be too high to kill humans with a single shot but on the other hand, it should be high enough to be meaningful against golems. The average of 10d8+8 is 53. multiplying it by 5% (its chance to happen per hit) results in 2 and half damage average, which is still much lower than a Kensai's damage bonus at the same level.

With these explanations, do you still think that it is too much? Comments will be appreciated.
5% each and only one of the three when it triggers.
I understood that, but having played a bit with the riskbreaker I do think that it's still too much. I did some math as well and I don't think this is about damage over time, but about burst damage, and that is simply too much.

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Sikret
post Mar 8 2008, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(lroumen @ Mar 7 2008, 12:38 AM) *
5% each and only one of the three when it triggers.
I understood that, but having played a bit with the riskbreaker I do think that it's still too much. I did some math as well and I don't think this is about damage over time, but about burst damage, and that is simply too much.


Apart from the average damage in a long duration of time, the kensai does more damage than the riskbreaker even if we calculate it for one single round. Let's compare a 21st level Riskbreaker with a 21st level Kensai (both with the same weapons and same strength bonuses). Assume that both are using GWW to do 10 attacks per round:

1- The Kensai: He has +7 damage bonus per attack more than the Riskbreaker and consequently, he strikes for +70 damage more than the riskbreaker.

2- The riskbreaker: Even though it's not certain that he will roll a "Hard HiT" in that round, I assume that he will roll one. One Hard Hit inflicts 53 points of damage average.

Thus, the kensai still inflicts 17 point more damage in the round. The difference will be more and more in Kensai's favor if we do the comparison at higher levels. The Riskbreaker stands a bit better only when we do the comparison for levels between 15 and 18.

So, if by "burst" damage, you refer to damage caused in one round, the Kensai is still a more dangerous attacker. Unless by "burst" damage, you refer to the damage caused by one single shot, but cases in which 50 points of damage in one single shot can be more effective than 70 points of damage in one single round are extremely rare.

All this said, I am ready to decrease the Hard Hit damage to 10D6 +5 (average = 40) if the majority vote for reducing the damage.

I'm looking forward to receiving more feedback and comments before making a decision.


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Posts in this topic
lroumen   Comments on Riskbreaker Kit   Feb 12 2008, 10:32 AM
Sikret   Thanks for the comments. I think at this stage an...   Feb 12 2008, 11:41 AM
shadan   Imho riskbreaker should be able to use twohanded w...   Feb 12 2008, 12:57 PM
lroumen   I haven't gone far enough for all risk decreme...   Feb 12 2008, 01:25 PM
Sikret   I haven't gone far enough for all risk decreme...   Feb 13 2008, 09:56 AM
lroumen   I am aware of the fact that they can use Ioun ston...   Feb 13 2008, 01:18 PM
shadan   Long sword has a problem: no good +3 long sword in...   Feb 13 2008, 01:41 PM
Sikret   "Treefolk's Arm +4" and the "Ri...   Feb 13 2008, 02:04 PM
lroumen   I like Treefolk Arm and there is an 'easy...   Feb 13 2008, 02:22 PM
shadan   Yes, I fogrot Treefolk's Arm, and Rhymed Club,...   Feb 13 2008, 02:58 PM
lroumen   Ah yes axes... I had forgotten about those.   Feb 13 2008, 03:20 PM
Sikret   What's your opinion about this new description...   Mar 5 2008, 02:06 PM
Nexiam   What's your opinion about this new description...   Mar 6 2008, 09:26 AM
Nexiam   now it looks very interesting, thou a bit strong i...   Mar 5 2008, 02:35 PM
lroumen   The Riskbreaker is designed to go with 2-weapon st...   Mar 5 2008, 04:03 PM
Raven   There are some possibilities to make it seemingly ...   Mar 5 2008, 06:49 PM
Sikret   I agree. I think the combination of GWW with ...   Mar 6 2008, 03:37 PM
lroumen   I'm not sure if I have conveyed what I had in ...   Mar 6 2008, 08:08 PM
Sikret   5% each and only one of the three when it triggers...   Mar 8 2008, 01:11 PM
rbeverjr   Personally, I would have rather seen him be able t...   Mar 5 2008, 09:39 PM
hankiwi   I would add disadventages like -2 strenght and a 1...   Mar 6 2008, 08:47 AM
lroumen   Burst damage is damage in a single hit. I did no...   Mar 10 2008, 09:00 AM
Sikret   Ok, the hard hit damage is decreased to 10D6 +5.   Mar 10 2008, 09:57 AM
GreyArea   Having a look at this class (and considering takin...   Apr 6 2008, 12:39 AM
Kerkes   Finally forced myself to take a riskbreaker on am ...   Aug 22 2008, 09:37 PM
LZJ   I totally agree. Keldorn's innate kit abilitie...   Aug 23 2008, 02:10 AM
Sikret   Yes, I will probably replace the 5% chance to heal...   Aug 23 2008, 07:29 AM
Kerkes   Luck adds to saving throws and damage. However, th...   Oct 2 2008, 10:13 AM
Raven   Kerkes, is that based on what you have seen in-gam...   Oct 2 2008, 01:04 PM
Daulmakan   Kerkes, is that based on what you have seen in-gam...   Oct 2 2008, 02:17 PM
Kerkes   @ Raven Try playing on "easy". It adds ...   Oct 2 2008, 06:08 PM
Vuki   Try playing on "easy". It adds + 6 to lu...   Oct 2 2008, 08:09 PM
Kerkes   FoD is a save vs.Death in IA, not save vs. spell. ...   Oct 2 2008, 08:41 PM
Vuki   Hmm, that I missed. But let's make a count...   Oct 3 2008, 09:09 AM
Arkain   Kerkes seems to talk about the beginning of the ga...   Oct 3 2008, 04:17 PM
Kerkes   Arkain's post is true. This discussion actuall...   Oct 3 2008, 09:08 PM
LZJ   Well, the mechanism for "luck" is certai...   Oct 4 2008, 11:28 AM
Raven   Well, the mechanism for "luck" is certai...   Oct 4 2008, 04:03 PM
Vuki   Ok, with a low level mage you are right.   Oct 4 2008, 11:35 AM
Frazurblu   I am currently playing a Riskbreaker in a custom p...   Feb 15 2009, 05:24 PM
matti   Looks really cool but for me riskbreaker is unplay...   Feb 16 2009, 08:31 AM
Raven   Looks really cool but for me riskbreaker is unplay...   Feb 17 2009, 10:26 AM
lroumen   Early game he's on the weak side, but late gam...   Feb 17 2009, 07:55 AM
shadan   I usually don't use in my party 2 fighter type...   Feb 17 2009, 10:46 AM
matti   In case of riskbreaker, kits abilities looks impre...   Feb 17 2009, 11:11 AM
Kraitok   My personal thoughts on the 2 handed deal are that...   Feb 17 2009, 01:25 PM
Sikret   You don't put Kensai up front as meat shields,...   Feb 17 2009, 04:39 PM
lroumen   I like the improved haste + 2-weapon style combina...   Feb 18 2009, 08:55 AM
thick3   RISKBREAKER: Riskbreakers are masters of simultane...   Feb 20 2010, 09:36 PM
Sikret   The final description of the kit is this: As fo...   Feb 20 2010, 10:08 PM
Vuki   The final description of the kit is this: ... - On...   Feb 20 2010, 11:49 PM
Sikret   The final description of the kit is this: ... - On...   Feb 21 2010, 04:55 AM
thick3   Thx. Looks interesting, can't wait to pair him...   Feb 21 2010, 04:30 AM
bulian   I wonder how he fares late game when warriors have...   Feb 22 2010, 08:04 PM
Sikret   What type of damage is the "hard hit?" ...   Feb 22 2010, 09:18 PM
bulian   Its casting time is zero in IA v6. The casting ti...   Feb 22 2010, 10:47 PM
thick3   Any chance to release the new riskbreaker kit as s...   Feb 22 2010, 11:29 PM
Sikret   Any chance to release the new riskbreaker kit as s...   Feb 23 2010, 08:02 AM
thick3   Hehe thats true. I just started another v5 game wi...   Feb 23 2010, 09:07 AM
lroumen   In v5, the casting speed of risk decrement can be ...   Feb 24 2010, 01:45 PM
Vuki   Innate abilities and spell should work in a differ...   Feb 24 2010, 09:55 PM
Sikret   In the description of the Risk Decrement ability, ...   Feb 24 2010, 10:27 PM
lroumen   If you put it that way, sure. Innate abilities a...   Feb 25 2010, 08:32 AM
Vuki   In my opinion a fighter HLA is an innate ability. ...   Feb 25 2010, 09:29 AM
matti   I agree with Vuki. If you put it that way, sur...   Feb 25 2010, 10:03 AM
Kerkes   Riskbreaker's abilities can be interrupted in ...   Feb 25 2010, 10:32 AM
blackkensai   Riskbreaker's abilities can be interrupted in ...   Feb 27 2010, 03:54 PM
matti   Total overkill in vanilla. I understand Sikret...   Feb 25 2010, 01:57 PM
Sikret   Warrior HLAs such as Hardiness and GWW already hav...   Feb 25 2010, 02:55 PM
Vuki   However, Barbarian Rage and Berserker's Enrage...   Feb 25 2010, 06:59 PM
Mjolnir88   For roleplay reasons a barbarian/zerker would be m...   Feb 25 2010, 05:04 PM
Kerkes   Hmmm...if hardiness has casting time of 0, and can...   Feb 25 2010, 06:42 PM
matti   Hmmm...if hardiness has casting time of 0, and can...   Feb 26 2010, 07:26 AM


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