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[Ryel ril Ers]

Sorry for the offtopics but i have an idea for the cleric kit. Because it doesn't depends on any god, doesn't necessery modify the stronghold quest.

Warpriest

"Warpriests are fierce, earthy clerics who pray for peace, but prepare for war. Their strong wills, powerful personalities and devotion to their deities make them fearsome combatants."
Complete Divine 74. page (D&D 3)

Advantages
Can put 2 star every weapons, sword and shield style and two weapon style.

Every 4 level they gain an Inflame (see above) and Remove fear and every 8 level a Mass Cure.

Inflame: The warpriest flaming his soul. They filled by the will of their god.
Get one more attack and immunity to fear, charm, confusion, hopeless and command effects.

Able to learn Whirwind HLA

Disadvantages
Needs at least 13 Charisma (or it is advantage?) //Because he need good charisma for leadership
Cannot dual class

1)Cannot turn undead //There isn't undead army in the world
or
2)-1 spell per level //Because they don't have enough time to pray
or
3)-2 wisdom //the church not allow to the best talents wasted on the battlefield



I think this is a balanced class with unique power but not necessery better than a berserker->cleric.

[Sikret]

In strict powergaming terms requiring a Cha of 13 when the previous minimum was 3 is still a disadvantage. While your overall points total will on average be higher, the fact that you can't allocate those Cha points to another more useful stat means those extra points are less useful.

Less useful, yes, but you didn't have them assured before.

Why not? The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage. Raven's argument is valid and sound.

The stat requirement that is supposed to operate as a restriction is but an advantage.

A few years ago, someone made this false statement in a kit-creation tutorial. Be careful not to accept and repeat such false things without thinking.

Having the possibility or not to dump stats is irrelevant to the purpose of balancing the kit itself.

But, it's most relevant.

As Raven mentioned, all these discussions had been made before in this forum before. I don't see why it is resurrected again.

[Daulmakan]

Why not? The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage. Raven's argument is valid and sound.

I don't think so. The main point of having high scores requirements in the original P&P game is that it is difficult to roll them. In the computer game, this isn't the case, but instead it's the exact opposite. The IE will save you tons of reloads to get you the minimum stats required to play the said kit. As an example, the paladin stat requirements make sure that not everyone can play/be one and thus its unique aspect is preserved. This isn't an issue for the Baldur's Gate series.

As I said before, having a dump stat or not is irrelevant to the gaming aspect of the kit. Unless, of course, that you only think about powergaming, which is Raven's argument and yours. But in that case, you can simply keep rolling until you get all 18s (and in this case, having a high stat requirement will help towards reaching that goal in the said stat), so the restriction doesn't function as such either.

A few years ago, someone made this false statement in a kit-creation tutorial. Be careful not to accept and repeat such false things without thinking.

That was CamDawg's kit creation tutorial, and I think it's perfectly accurate when considering the hindrance aspect of stat requirements present in P&P.

As Raven mentioned, all these discussions had been made before in this forum before. I don't see why it is resurrected again.

I wasn't around in those, so if I repeat something you heard before I'm sorry about that.

I agree that making a warrior kit have 18 Charisma will prevent you from improving other stats, but that's a gaming issue, not totally kit-related. If someone keeps playing characters with 3 Charisma because he/she knows the Ring of Human Influence is available early, that shouldn't be taken into account when creating a kit and saying that having a CHA requirement is a hindrance. The particular attribute required is related to the very nature of the kit, and as such goes beyond the scope of being merely a hindrance. It's the particular number required that fulfills that task IMO, and that's something the engine takes care of by itself.

[Sikret]

The main point of having high scores requirements in the original P&P game is that it is difficult to roll them. In the computer game, this isn't the case, but instead it's the exact opposite. The IE will save you tons of reloads to get you the minimum stats required to play the said kit. As an example, the paladin stat requirements make sure that not everyone can play/be one and thus its unique aspect is preserved. This isn't an issue for the Baldur's Gate series.

Yes, we never denied the things you say about PnP and the purpose of high stat requirements there. We also didn't deny that in BG2, the engine will roll the required number for you automatically. However, The main point is that minimum stat requirement (for not primary stats) is indeed a disadvantages in BG for a completely different reason. It's not a disadvantage because it is hard to acheive. See Raven's and my previous posts again.

As I said before, having a dump stat or not is irrelevant to the gaming aspect of the kit.

And as we explained, it's most relevant, because it affects the player's ability to make a character with high numbers in its primary stats.

Unless, of course, that you only think about powergaming, which is Raven's argument and yours. But in that case, you can simply keep rolling until you get all 18s (and in this case, having a high stat requirement will help towards reaching that goal in the said stat), so the restriction doesn't function as such either.

Rolling 6 natural 18s is impossible. What players actually do in practice is to exchange the values of stats (decreasing some and increasing others) to have high scores in useful stats. The minimum stat requirement functions as a disadvatnage exactly because it makes this process more difficult.

[Daulmakan]

And as we explained, it's most relevant, because it affects the player's ability to make a character with high numbers in its primary stats.

This might sound repetitive, but I don't think that's something the kit itself should adress. If having a 16 CHA means that you won't be able to reduce it further to improve STR, and thus the character won't be as powerful as it could've been were the attribute requirement otherwise (say, DEX instead of CHA), that's not a thing to measure when creating a kit. The kit should be considered with its bare attribute requirements. A Cavalier with a 69 stat total (meeting the minimum requirements for the class and averages for the race) would probably be less efective than another with 88, but the kit stays the same in both cases, balanced or not.

Rolling 6 natural 18s is impossible. What players actually do in practice is to exchange the values of stats (decreasing some and increasing others) to have high scores in useful stats. The minimum stat requirement functions as a disadvatnage exactly because it makes this process more difficult.

Yes, you are correct, of course, I meant having high values in all other attributes in a way such as to 'maximize' the powergaming potential (ie 18 in STR, DEX, & CON for a fighter). But even having a CHA which can't be lowered further still means that the rolled dice wil never be less than minimum. No one guaranteed that you were gonna get a high value in that stat to be exchanged for increasing another attribute in the first place. It might've been the lowest possible, but with the requirement it would never be.

In short, I think that if the total stat dice rolled is 90 or 70 doesn't change the balance of the kit. Its special abilities and disadvantages won't change because of that. If one offsets the other by a significant margin, having a few more points in STR or DEX don't make a difference. Furthermore, while it might make difficult the stat-dumping (which I consider of little importance), having X value required will only increase your average totals roll.

In the particular example made by Ryel, a 13 CHA won't make a hindrance at all, IMO. You can still use the dumping thing and get a priest with 18 WIS, 18 DEX, and 16 CON without too much hassle (you can still dump INT, STR because of the various girdles, and any excess points of CHA above the minimum). And this is of course taking into account that Charisma is underutilized in the game (you only need one of out of 6 chars to benefit). Plus, having a high CHA for a priest (or a paladin, or bard, etc.) makes sense roleplaying wise, regardless of their final power level.

In a similar vein, there's the issue of imposing negative attribute modifiers (eg -5 to STR). It could be most appropriate for a particular kit, but those might become irrelevant given some items in the game (Girdles of strength, etc.). Also, what would be the appropriate way of balancing a kit? Making disadvantages on par with the special abilities? Measuring it against other kits? Taking issues related to general gameplay in account as well? But I digress, those are other issues.

I guess since you prefer to measure the final, in-game power level of the character versus the potential one, we won't be able to come to much agreement.

[Sikret]

No one guaranteed that you were gonna get a high value in that stat to be exchanged for increasing another attribute in the first place.

This has been already replied to. Re-rolling can guarantee that you will have those extra point and then to allocate them to your other stats. Whereas, the minimum stat requirement will give you those extra stats without need to re-roll, but in the same time it prevent you from exchanging those extra points. Here is the link and the quote:

The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage.

@Raven:

The thing is that we are talking about a specific case: making a new kit for Improved Anvil.

No, no. Minimum stat requirements (provided that they are assigned to non-primary stats) are disadvantages even in the vanilla game. The argument is general and not merely for IA.

However, I agree that the minimum stat requirements play a more important role as disadvantages when we add IA to the equation. Some items' locations (such as the strength girdle) are randomized and they are not available in the early game and consequently the attributes the player starts the game with will become more important than before. Add to this the fact that potions of Insight, Genius and Mind Focusing no longer exist in the game.

Hence, yes, I agree that in IA, minimum stat requirements play a more serious role as disadvantages than in the vanilla game, because they can limit the ability of increasing other more important stats while those items and potions are either completely removed or randomized; but even without IA, minimum stat requirement is still a serious disadvantage for a kit for the arguments you (and I) presented. Those arguments are generally valid even for the vanilla game.