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[Ryel ril Ers]

Sorry for the offtopics but i have an idea for the cleric kit. Because it doesn't depends on any god, doesn't necessery modify the stronghold quest.

Warpriest

"Warpriests are fierce, earthy clerics who pray for peace, but prepare for war. Their strong wills, powerful personalities and devotion to their deities make them fearsome combatants."
Complete Divine 74. page (D&D 3)

Advantages
Can put 2 star every weapons, sword and shield style and two weapon style.

Every 4 level they gain an Inflame (see above) and Remove fear and every 8 level a Mass Cure.

Inflame: The warpriest flaming his soul. They filled by the will of their god.
Get one more attack and immunity to fear, charm, confusion, hopeless and command effects.

Able to learn Whirwind HLA

Disadvantages
Needs at least 13 Charisma (or it is advantage?) //Because he need good charisma for leadership
Cannot dual class

1)Cannot turn undead //There isn't undead army in the world
or
2)-1 spell per level //Because they don't have enough time to pray
or
3)-2 wisdom //the church not allow to the best talents wasted on the battlefield



I think this is a balanced class with unique power but not necessery better than a berserker->cleric.

[Sikret]

In strict powergaming terms requiring a Cha of 13 when the previous minimum was 3 is still a disadvantage. While your overall points total will on average be higher, the fact that you can't allocate those Cha points to another more useful stat means those extra points are less useful.

Less useful, yes, but you didn't have them assured before.

Why not? The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage. Raven's argument is valid and sound.

The stat requirement that is supposed to operate as a restriction is but an advantage.

A few years ago, someone made this false statement in a kit-creation tutorial. Be careful not to accept and repeat such false things without thinking.

Having the possibility or not to dump stats is irrelevant to the purpose of balancing the kit itself.

But, it's most relevant.

As Raven mentioned, all these discussions had been made before in this forum before. I don't see why it is resurrected again.

[Daulmakan]

Why not? The player can reroll to have those extra points in charisma and then allocate them to other useful stats. Whereas, with the minimum requirement, the player will have those extra points without need to re-roll, but he can't allocate them to his other stats. This is a solid argument for the fact that minimum stat requirement is indeed a serious disadvantage (provided that the requirement is assigned to a stat which is not primarily useful for that class or kit). As an example, paladins' minimum charisma requirement works indeed as a disadvantage. Raven's argument is valid and sound.

I don't think so. The main point of having high scores requirements in the original P&P game is that it is difficult to roll them. In the computer game, this isn't the case, but instead it's the exact opposite. The IE will save you tons of reloads to get you the minimum stats required to play the said kit. As an example, the paladin stat requirements make sure that not everyone can play/be one and thus its unique aspect is preserved. This isn't an issue for the Baldur's Gate series.

As I said before, having a dump stat or not is irrelevant to the gaming aspect of the kit. Unless, of course, that you only think about powergaming, which is Raven's argument and yours. But in that case, you can simply keep rolling until you get all 18s (and in this case, having a high stat requirement will help towards reaching that goal in the said stat), so the restriction doesn't function as such either.

A few years ago, someone made this false statement in a kit-creation tutorial. Be careful not to accept and repeat such false things without thinking.

That was CamDawg's kit creation tutorial, and I think it's perfectly accurate when considering the hindrance aspect of stat requirements present in P&P.

As Raven mentioned, all these discussions had been made before in this forum before. I don't see why it is resurrected again.

I wasn't around in those, so if I repeat something you heard before I'm sorry about that.

I agree that making a warrior kit have 18 Charisma will prevent you from improving other stats, but that's a gaming issue, not totally kit-related. If someone keeps playing characters with 3 Charisma because he/she knows the Ring of Human Influence is available early, that shouldn't be taken into account when creating a kit and saying that having a CHA requirement is a hindrance. The particular attribute required is related to the very nature of the kit, and as such goes beyond the scope of being merely a hindrance. It's the particular number required that fulfills that task IMO, and that's something the engine takes care of by itself.