Nalia & Imoen Options

[Sikret]

Are you happy with Nalia's class (= A weaker duplicate of Imeon)? Or do you prefer her to be a sorceress? Of course, she says things about lockpicking in her dialogues, but perhaps they are not really too many or too important. Another alternative is to increase her level in thief class to make her a better thief for those who want to save a slot for a party member (though in this way she will become even more identical with Imoen).

Another option is to leave Nalia as she is and change Imoen to a Sorceress when you find her in Spellhold. The justification can be that through the rituals and experiments performed on her, amazing and radical changes have occurred in her mental status.

A last and moderate choice is to leave both of them as they are but just re-distribute Nalia's thieving skills to make her a better trap finder/disarmer. 10% of her pick pocket skill can be safely moved to her remove trap.

Any comments?

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jul 3 2007, 07:33 AM

[Stu]

Or do you prefer her to be a sorceress?

I'm doing this in my current game atm with a lvl1 npc mod!

Atm Nalia's thief levels are mostly there to give her a few more weapon choices, she's still a more than capable mage (i.e. there isnt much of an xp hit from 4 thief levels). Changing her to a sorcerer - I can see the appeal (having done that myself) but I'm not sure how well it would be received as part of IA - There will definitely be some objections from people and there are already a few ways that players can already do the change themselves. Additionally there are some very good Sorcerer npc mods out there - Tashia was very well done and from what I've heard Kelsy was nothing short of exceptional.
So imho, Nalia->sorcerer wouldn't be that great as part of a compulsory component of IA. I'm all for altering her thief skills to make her a better trap finder/disarmer though!

Higher thief levels, as mentioned would make Nalia too similar to Imoen. If Imoen were then changed this could have some merit. What I wouldn't mind is a bit more control over what Imoen becomes, perhaps making her a lower level thief with enough XP to bring her to the lvl of the pc would be good. That way the player could turn her into whatever they like (or what they did in BGI).
Just a few ideas.

[Sikret]

Thanks for the comments, Stu!

Atm Nalia's thief levels are mostly there to give her a few more weapon choices, she's still a more than capable mage (i.e. there isnt much of an xp hit from 4 thief levels).

I agree.

Additionally there are some very good Sorcerer npc mods out there - Tashia was very well done and from what I've heard Kelsy was nothing short of exceptional.

Well, none of these two NPCs have the best selection of spells. Selecting good spells is the most important factor for a sorcerer. I also don't like their voices, portraits and dialogues and do not install them myself. Moreover, I never presume that players have any other specific mod installed. Some players just play IA with no other mods and I want them to fully enjoy the game as well.

Ok, let me explain the problem again: The game has no sorcerer NPC but has two identical dual class thief-mages. When I reach Imoen in spellhold, I have no motive to let her join the party as Nalia is already a much better mage by that time. Now, the question is: Should something be done to change this situation or not? If yes, what?

So imho, Nalia->sorcerer wouldn't be that great as part of a compulsory component of IA. I'm all for altering her thief skills to make her a better trap finder/disarmer though!

Yes, I too, currently lean towards re-distributing Nalia's thieving skills and keeping her as she is. Changing Imoen to a sorceress has much more appeal to me as it will give me good and strong motive to have her in party.

It's still a rough idea and I may eventually drop it depending on the feedback I receive here.

Thanks again.

[Shadan]

Agree, Nalia and Imoen are very similar to each other, even they stats similar also. Imho Nalia as sorcerer or at least specialist mage would be the best. 2nd best option to redistributt her thieving skills.

[muddymissfit]

Another option is to leave Nalia as she is and change Imoen to a Sorceress when you find her in Spellhold. The justification can be that through the rituals and experiments performed on her, amazing and radical changes have occurred in her mental status.

I like this idea

well more so as id rather not mess about with character editors when you have pro's offering to do it properly

Not only does it expand your options , in terms of party composition , it serves to balance out the gap between the two npc's - ie Nalia's new item makes her a favoured npc , changing Imoen to a sorc. , well that gives more of an even trade off should you want to choose between them - also adds a incentive for replay , at least to my mind

This post has been edited by muddymissfit: Jul 3 2007, 02:58 PM

[rbeverjr]

Personally, I wouldn't mind a change in one or both of them. I am amazed that the original game had two NPCs that are so similar. I typically change the NPCs to suit my own desires for the latest game. (Of course, I have also played many games where I used the original games NPCs, unaltered.)

As you pointed out, I do have some objections to the spell choices for both Kelsey and Tashia. (I have used them both and like them both.) I would be surprised if any stock sorcerer's spell selection fit the needs of my specific team and my style of play perfectly. So, that isn't even a factor in my consideration, because I use SK to make the spells what I want them to be.

As a power player, Nalia is the most useful because you have given her a very nice trinket (upgraded ring). Also, I love the sorcerer and prefer a straight mage from the beginning (rather than waiting on Imoen). Nalia would be my choice as a sorceress under the present circumstances. As a role player, Imoen as a sorceress would be worth taking along. In regards to role playing, neither NPC choice is optimal considering the dialog and history of the NPC. The simplistic thief skills seem inherent to Nalia's escape from auntie to do "good deeds." Although I suppose the torture of Irenicus could have brought about a sorcerer's talent in Imoen, what was she before? Does the XP just somehow transfer from the classes prior to the torture to sorceress?

If you choose to make the changes, I would vote for Nalia as sorceress - or even thief <=11-sorceress. (Yes, I know that this is not normally possible in the game, but it does allow her some mediocre thief skills establishing a role playing perspective again - thief skills to escape Auntie.) Imoen begins as a thief in BG1. Imoen can be a swashbuckler. (I reserve multiclass, like fighter-thief, to non-humans even though I think SK can make that happen too.) That way, players can use Jan or Yoshimo until Imoen and then trade characters if they desire.

[Raven]

I would say tweak Nalia's thief points but otherwise leave her.

I wouldn't suggest removing her thieving abilities completely because I feel it fits her background and wouldn't want to be forced to take Yoshimo or Jan as a thief if I didn't play one myself.

Also it's clear from what she says that Nalia has learnt magic - it's not something she was born with - so personally I wouldn't make her into a sorceress.


I wouldn't object to Imoen becoming a sorceress. In fact I think that's a good idea and it can be justified far more easily than for Nalia.

Btw, would you mention Imoen's transformation (if you decide to implement it) in a readme? Could be a bit harsh if you didn't know and played with Yoshimo up til the asylum counting on getting Imoen back as a thief...

[rbeverjr]

Also it's clear from what she says that Nalia has learnt magic - it's not something she was born with - so personally I wouldn't make her into a sorceress.

A sorcerer learns magic too. It takes XP for them to learn (however that is accomplished) to cast new spells. I'm really surprised that Auntie allowed Nalia to be instructed as a wizard at all, myself.

[Sikret]

Also it's clear from what she says that Nalia has learnt magic - it's not something she was born with

This is good point. Does she say something in her dialogues in this respect?

In general, I agree that Nalia's dialogues make it more difficult to change her class to a sorceress (compared to Imoen) considering things she says about picking locks to sneak out of the keep and other things.

I wouldn't object to Imoen becoming a sorceress. In fact I think that's a good idea and it can be justified far more easily than for Nalia.

I think so too, though we need more votes to make a final decision.

Btw, would you mention Imoen's transformation (if you decide to implement it) in a readme?

Sure!

[Sikret]

A sorcerer learns magic too. It takes XP for them to learn (however that is accomplished) to cast new spells.

This is a valid point of view too. As I said, I think her lines about thieving are more related to the question that we should or can change her class.

[nataben1314]

Well I'm personally not a big fan of Nalia or Imoen, so I suppose this won't affect me much. However, I will say that in a run or two I've done with Nalia in my party I don't seem to remember her commenting on thieving stuff very often. Maybe 3-4x throughout the game. With numbers that low I don't think it would be a big deal to change her to a non-thief class.

As to the issue of sorcerer learning spells, I'm not sure. It was always my impression that a sorcerer gaining new spells at level-up was merely a means to recognize the "discovery" of new spell-casting ability as power is gained.

I always like Edwin as my main caster. Which makes me wonder, Sikret, does IA have any compatibility issues with the part of the tweaks/EoU that makes it so that party members of all alignment won't leave or fight eachother?

[rbeverjr]

Off topic (unless this trivia matters to someone voting )

As to the issue of sorcerer learning spells, I'm not sure. It was always my impression that a sorcerer gaining new spells at level-up was merely a means to recognize the "discovery" of new spell-casting ability as power is gained.

The sorcerer is not a class from second edition DnD. It was added in 3rd edition. Here's a brief excerpt from v. 3.5: "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one." Note the use of the word "learn." Of course, this use could just be an example of semantics. Elsewhere, the manual seems to indicate that the ability of a sorcerer is his heritage - not everyone can be a sorcerer. Although the details of the difference between wizard and sorcerer hasn't been gone in to as far as I recall, I envision that the difference is as indicated in another game, Shadowrun - the wizard must study tomes (a scholar) while the sorcerer is an artist. Both learn to cast magic, but the way they learn is different. The sorcerer learns to manipulate magic from an inborn ability.

[Sikret]

I have also read somewhere that sorcerers have dragon blood or divine blood or something like that in their veins. If we take into consideraion the heritage thing, Imoen is a better choice for being a sorceress than Nalia. We know that her father is a god and we don't know anything about her mother, while Nalia's family line is somewhat known which makes her a rather bad choice for being a sorceress, though it is not totally unjustifiable as her grand father's father might have been a dragon or a demigod (who knows). It doesn't necessarily need to be her father.

All this said, I definitely lean towards Imoen as the better choice for being a sorceress. I'm waiting for others to comment.

[Baronius]

My vote goes for Imoen as a sorceress. It would also be very beneficial for those who would prefer a Sorcerer, but don't want to choose it for their protagonist's class and wouldn't like to install third-party mods either.

[coaster]

I quite like the idea of Immy as sorceress, but in BG1 she is definitely given the role of thief initially (eg. sneaking in and reading Gorion's letter in Candlekeep). It's a shame she can't be a "thief-sorceress", but does the game engine allow such a thing? I don't think SK does.

So I think she definitely needs a good plot related reason to become a sorceress. As you say, one option is that it is the result of Irenicus' experiments (perhaps to give her more power so her soul is suitable for Bodhi?) Alternatively, given that the PC receives Slayer powers after his soul is stolen, Imoen's transformation could be a result of the removal of hers - some by product of the way "Bhaal within" is trying to assert control.

[Baronius]

I really liked her as a thief in BG1, and absolutely hated that they changed it for BG2. (Of course, now that it's given, I greatly support her to be a sorceress.) So it's the creators who changed Imoen to a spellcaster: in this respect, making her a sorceress isn't such a big change after that. (Maybe some plot would be nice though, I agree.)

[leonidas]

Nalia is already the most powerful mage choice, and taking away her thief skills would be at odds with her dialogue.

Whereas turning imoen into a sorceror would actually give players a reason to recruit her into the party.

[Raven]

A sorcerer learns magic too. It takes XP for them to learn (however that is accomplished) to cast new spells. I'm really surprised that Auntie allowed Nalia to be instructed as a wizard at all, myself.

What I meant is that a wizard learns from scratch (i.e. it's all learning). A sorcerer only learns how to use the innate magical power they were born with (or granted by bizarre experimentation, conceivably). That magical power is not learnt from somewhere in the first place, it's just there.

Nalia "has been educated and taught the magical arts, as per her dead mother's wishes" according to her biography. This was what I was referring to when I said she has 'learnt' magic. This description clearly refers to her being a mage rather than a sorceress. To make the change, Nalia's background, dialogue etc. would have to be reworked a bit. This is one reason why I'm in favour of having Imoen's class changed instead.

This post has been edited by Raven: Jul 3 2007, 08:38 PM

[Toxeus]

Well, none of these two NPCs have the best selection of spells. Selecting good spells is the most important factor for a sorcerer. I also don't like their voices, portraits and dialogues and do not install them myself.

Sorry for offtop, but did you try Xan? Good portrait and voice, great dialogs And you can select different clases during mod's installation: mage, fighter/mage, sorcerer
About topic: i vote for Imoen as a sorcerer

[(Ø=M)^42]

I would like to see Imoen as a Thief->Sorcerer, or at least Sorcerer. Increases her usability if you get there "late in the game", as in after doing several sidequests, she'll be much lower level then Nalia, and I feel bringing Imoen along for the story is right. Can't see me throwing her away