Demon Lord vs Judgement Day (Spoilers) Options

[rbeverjr]

I just installed IA at the end of SoA. It's been nice for the most part. Irenicus at the Tree seemed to be Unbreechable - that's not fair. I did kill him with Dragon's Breath, no characters died, and no reload, but still. Irenicus in hell was a nice improvement over the stock game without being totally overboard like Tactics Improved Irenicus. I then went through Saradush and Watcher's Keep (through level 4). I have no major complaints there either. The game has become more challenging. However, when I received Angurvadal and left the Watcher's Keep to face the demon lord (upper right area at Watcher's Keep's exterior), I was VERY disappointed.

This is the cheesiest encounter that I've ever had the misfortune to see. Please spoil me. How do you defeat this crew? Specifically, I am talking about the demon lord and his 2 buddies.

As near as I can tell, the demon lord is immune to high level traps as well as time stop. If you normally do 30 HP damage/strike, you may do 8 - provided that you can strip his protections. A level 30 inquisitor's dispel magic (that'd be level 60 spell power) wasn't keeping things under control - I'm not sure it was working at all! Does everyone always have immunity to abjuration and divination (vs True Seeing)? Both his buddies wield Soul Reavers. I started with a -20 THACO or so and ended up with a +50 THACO or so. Isn't that sweet... I've tried many things and none seemed to work. He seems to have an inexhaustible spell supply. So, I doubt hit and come back later cheese would help. Mord's swords are only distractions. Planetars and elementals are lunch. Of course, dragon's breath is useless. So, what's the solution?

I hope the author tones this encounter down a lot.... If he thinks the weapon you may get some day from this encounter is too powerful - then dump the weapon. As it is, this encounter is STUPIDLY difficult. (Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's mine!)

I have been playing DnD from the first version until the latest. I am also a very experienced BG2 player. I generally/usually avoid using spells and tactics that would not be allowed/couldn't succeed while a human judge was running a DnD 3.5 table. That alone makes the game MUCH, MUCH harder. But for the game's replay value, I like new mods. Unfortunately, some tactical mods go far overboard, such as this encounter and Tactics Improved Irenicus (to name 2). Some people like tactical puzzles, but I play for enjoyment when I'm really too tired to solve some tough puzzles. If I have to reload more than 3 times on Core difficulty to beat and encounter, I consider it too much. Tactics Pontifex is one I had to reload more than 3x to succeed with all my team intact; although, I did luck out and kill him in 2 rounds on Insane once. I say this only to indicate that I am an experienced player to hopefully convince the author that this encounter is a little too difficult for the general player population.

I'm sure there's something my tired brain overlooked. So, please tell me how to defeat these guys. If someone can't help me, then this encounter will receive the ultimate rebuff, CTRL-Y the baddies and leave the treasure on the ground except for the component.

[Romulas]

Ah, if you think that was tough wait till you go back to watchers keep and face the real bad guy. I tend to agree with you on some of the difficulty of these "improvements".

As had been said before this mod pretty much makes the mage or sorcerer useless as everyone has a barage of spells that fire at the beginning of the encounter and everyone has high magic resistence. In fact if I remember right lower resistance would not work on the demon lord and his boss, not sure on that one though as it seemed that no spells worked on either of them.

In my current game if my best fighter gets waxed (and often does), then it is nearly an immediate reload as the monster tears through the rest of the weaker party. Note, during the first part of the game there is not enough items to equip a party with more than one, maybe two good effective fighters. Many of the encounters are a fight or nothing encounter, meaning due to sikrets great hatred of hit and retreat tactics (cheese as he calls it) you either fight with every party member (aka you must gather your party before proceeding), or avoid the encounter. I particularly think it is "bad form" to require your entire party to enter a small room and battle a monster that casts area spells and everyone dies, but thats just my opinion.

Now, to answer your original question. I think the great sikret missed one of these tactics at watchers keep. It would seem that you can take your character one at a time (or group) to the top of the keep and the bad guys won't follow. So this is what I did. I kept my strongest fighters (two) down near the rune statue and sent my weaker ones to the top of the keep. I drew the demon lord to near the entrance of the keep and tried to battle him and his buddies there, that way I could bring down some people to fire spells (mainly summoning like mords sword) and retreat. Due to the reduction in THAC0 that you mentioned I concentrated on the death lords first and if it got too bad I ran around the map until the extreme negatives wore off then hit them again. Sometimes if I got lucky the mords sword would keep either the demon lord or the death lords busy long enough for my fighter(s) to draw away and single out a bad guy and kill him.

I forgot one important thing, everyone (did not use AI at this time) fired everything they had at the elemental golem, after all if he starts gateing in the gem and coin golems its pretty much over. So, in progression of death I tried to kill the elemental golem, death lords, and demon lord in this order.

If the reload button was a physical button it would have been worn out for certain on this battle. So far I have found this game much more fustrating than it should be.

Hope this helps.

Romulas

[thetruth]

@rbeverjr

Both his buddies wield Soul Reavers. I started with a -20 THACO or so and ended up with a +50 THACO or so.

Have you tried to make the Death Lords attack a character with PfMWs ?
If you don't have a F/M or a Bard even a pure Mage with the right protections could distract the Death Lords and absorb their hits.

A good way to prevent Protection Removals spells (R.Magic, Breach, Ruby Ray) from dispelling your buffs would be to use SI:Abjuration + Spell Shield + Spell Trap.
Also pause very often the game and read the battle text carefully.
If the Demons bring down your SI: Abjuration be ready to cast another one immediately.

I don't remember if in that fight the Demons use Death Spell.If not Mord. Swords can be very effective too.

A level 30 inquisitor's dispel magic (that'd be level 60 spell power) wasn't keeping things under control - I'm not sure it was working at all!

Dispel Magic from an Inquisitor will work 100% if they don't have SI: Abjuration.
But note that some protective spells are not affected by Dispel/Remove Magic, like:

a)Spell Turning,Minor S.Turning
b)Globe of Invulnerability,Minor G.of Invulnerability
c)Spell Trap
d)Spell Immunity
e)Spell Deflection,Minor S.Deflection
f)Spell Shield

If enemies have SI: Divination then you could use Dispel Magic for the rest of their protections, or even better you could use the Wands of Spell Striking (from W.Keep) which can target the partially visible enemies.

He seems to have an inexhaustible spell supply.

I don't think this is true. Well if you keep running away from them then they will refresh their spells but not if you fight without avoiding them.

As it is, this encounter is STUPIDLY difficult. (Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's mine!)

I don't agree with that.This encounter is far from impossible but this is just my opinion as you said .

And as Romulas said the second encounter for the Judgement Day sword is much more difficult.That is indeed extremely difficult but still doable with the right tactics.

Also since the player who wins these encounters gets as a reward an extremely powerful weapon and since you are not "forced" to do these fights in order to proceed the game, I don't think that they should be easier IMHO.



@Romulas

Many of the encounters are a fight or nothing encounter, meaning due to sikrets great hatred of hit and retreat tactics (cheese as he calls it)

I must say that when I first tested IA I didn't agree with Sikret on this.
I thought (and I still think) that hit&run tactics are not cheesy and sould be allowed.

But Sikret has convinced me that the hit&run tactics can be exploited by the player at a point that can make even the most difficult battle much more easier.

Just think about it guys: a tough enemy has lets say 5 PfMWs spells and 5 Ruby Ray, Breach spells. With hit&run tactics the player just with one character can make him to waste all of his spells, avoiding to fight and after the enemy has finished his spells the player could attack with all his party members and kill him quickly.

Unfortunately it is another limitation of the game's AI.
No enemy with a decent INT would keep casting PfMWs if he saw that the player keeps running away from him.

Sikret has found that solution in order to prevent exploiting this situation.If someone has a better solution to propose, I am sure that Sikret would be very glad to hear it

you either fight with every party member (aka you must gather your party before proceeding), or avoid the encounter.

But still you don't have to fight with every party member.
You can always keep back your weaker party members, or even out of the enemy's visual range, without having to avoid the encounter.

I think the great sikret missed one of these tactics at watchers keep. It would seem that you can take your character one at a time (or group) to the top of the keep and the bad guys won't follow.

I don't think that Sikret missed this.
But since you can't avoid fighting for more than some seconds (since enemies will refresh their spells) it cannot be exploited in an cheesy way (another situation which gives right to Sikret for making enemies to refresh their spells/buffs).

You can still make your badly injured party members retreat for healing but it doesn't make the battle much easier IMO, since without the right tactics you will not defeat them anyway.

[rbeverjr]

@thetruth: Please submit more tactics - yes spoil me. Your opinion that the difficulty is fine when I'm frustrated is not at all helpful. From the comments that I read on other threads, you are a tactics maestro, defeating Ascension with a simple fighter. So, your opinion is likely not the same as the mass's.

These foes can be distracted with Mord's sword. I just didn't succeed in killing them quick enough. Not so surprising since the demon lord I was attacking had 75-100% resistance in everything, and Lower Resistance did not seem to work. I probably should have killed his underlings first - if I could. I think the Demon Lord puts up spell immunity abjuration, but I did not notice if the death lords do too. I breached the demon lord plenty of times, but did not succeed in bringing them down.

I might could succeed in killing them if I just keep trying, but that is not how I enjoy the game. I think this match will get thumbs down from me. CTRL-Y and take the component. If I get more of these matches, this mod will be uninstalled, and I will leave it to the tactics maestros.

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Feb 25 2007, 07:04 PM

[Mordokai]

One tactic that should work very nice(and you can use it since you have an inquisitor), is to put improved Carsomyr in the hands of Keldorn or your PC(if he is a paladin) and cast improved haste on him. Than just hit the demon lords as many times as possible. Their protections are bound to go down very soon. GWW works well for this purpose too, maybe even better.

[thetruth]

@rbeverjr


As I wrote in my previous post you could use a chracter who has PfMWs to distract the Death Lords and take their hits.

I repeat use SI: Abjuration + Spell Shield + Spell Trap and keep casting SI: Abjuration if the Demons bring it down.

In the meantime keep attacking with your other party members.Concentrate your attacks on the first Death Lord and then the second.
GWWs are very useful here since with the many R.Magic spells of the demons I.Haste gets dispelled.

I wouldn't bother casting spells on them, but you can use your spell casters for other purposes.

- Mages can summon Mord.Swords, or use the Rod of Resurrection to insta-heal badly injured party members. Remember that a clone (Simulacrum,PI) can use the Rod too (very useful in extreme battles) .

- Bards have a bad THACO for these battles but you could use them with the buffs I suggested above or you can always have them sing.Improved Bard song is quite useful.

- Clerics have a great 7 level spell:

Greater Restoration will full heal ALL your party members even those out of the visual range of the cleric.

When you kill the Death Lords concentrate on the Demon Lord.

His main power (even more than his resistances) is his high AC.Also he is immune to +3 or less weapons IIRC.
Buffs from potions are not so useful in this battle because they get dispelled from the R.Magic.
So if you have Critical Strike it can make the battle easier.

Are you still having trouble killing the Demon Lord ?
Then in the Oasis you get one of the most powerful weapons of the game.
Read the description of the Answerer and you will see that the AC of the Demon will be no more a problem for you

From the comments that I read on other threads, you are a tactics maestro, defeating Ascension with a simple fighter.

Heh thanks but I assure you that I am nothing like that.
I have just played the game too many times with mods like IA,Tactics etc.

As for soloing Ascension with a plain Fighter, it's easier that it sounds if you are masochist enough (don't mind reloading constantly ) and can exploit the game's AI.
Something that would be impossible with IA though

[rbeverjr]

Thanks for the replies. I was appalled that Carsomyr never seems to do anything. When I had Item Upgrades, I could see spell effects disappear. It didn't seem to happen this time. I was actually considering sending in my mage with Staff of the Magi under Tenser's and Protection from Magic Weapons.

I have always been reluctant to bring in my pure mages into combat. In the unmodded game they can rain havoc from afar, but I can try to let them be distractions. I like better the idea of just sending in the Mord's.

I think the key here will be switching my focus to eliminating the Death Lords. I did not realize how much of an impact they were having on my THACO. If it weren't for them, my main character would miss the demon lord only on a 1. Another key is to make sure the game pauses often and carefully read what is happening. What spells do they have up? Are my weapons doing anything? If not, then why? I did this a little, but not very carefully. I usually don't like taking this much time. My vision always seemed to be blurred (half-asleep) when I run into these kinds of battles.

I know about The Answerer. Both it and the Soul Reaver could probably benefit me in this battle. Unfortunately, Saerileth took Soul Reaver out of the bag of holding and broke it. I never went to the Oasis, I left Saradush and went straight to the keep.

I went as far as I wanted in the current game; although, I may give this battle another go.

I think you are right about +3 weapons (thetruth). I don't think I ever hit, until I switched to a +4 weapon. But the +4 weapon is nothing compared to Blackrazor of Celestial Fury. (Although CF wouldn't be much help here. Hey, I did level drain something.)

I really wanted to play a kensai, because their offense is best until greater whirlwinds come. However, due to the huge amount of DR/damage of IA monsters, I'm thinking that I better stick with the morituri. Although I have ran away from such cheese in the past, it looks like I need to pull out a big wheel of it now. I'm thinking morituri, FMC, FMT, and sorcerer (no XP cap). In ToB, having a morituri, FMC, sorcerer, swashbuckler, and illusionist-fighter. What do you think?

[thetruth]

I wouldn't suggest sending a pure Mage with T.Transf.

TT disable spell casting and after your buffs get dispelled (and they WILL after some rounds) he is dead.

You need your mage to able to renew his buffs and his role will be as a meat shield nothing else.

Also another tactic you could use is to wait until your character (with the buffs I suggested) absorbs the initial R.Magic, slow spells (free action) of the Demons and then send in the your other party members with I.Haste + other buffs (potions of STR,Heroism). And if the Demons cast again R.M. have your spell casters (from distance) to recast I.Haste.

Another key is to make sure the game pauses often and carefully read what is happening.

This is the most important thing when playing with tactical mods like IA.

Pausing at every round (I prefer manually) and not wasting any time during the battle is the key in these fights.

I'm thinking that I better stick with the morituri. Although I have ran away from such cheese in the past, it looks like I need to pull out a big wheel of it now.

I know the Morituri kit and though I consider it quite overpowered using it with IA or the XP CAP and other items/weapons out of the original game is not so cheesy anymore

In ToB, having a morituri, FMC, sorcerer, swashbuckler, and illusionist-fighter. What do you think?

I think it's an excellent party.
I would change the F/M/C with a R/C though.Better THACO and faster level-ups.

Also you could consider a F/T as well.Though the Swashbuckler can be an even better tank at high levels.His AC bonuses are insane.

[rbeverjr]

Well, thanks for your help. This time I switched my focus to his helpers and won the first try. I was able to kill them on Core without any deaths. I went through a lot of Resurrection and Spellstrike charges. I don't think that Carsomyr helped but the wand of spell striking did. I still think this was a very difficult battle. Particularly, if you don't have the right team. I'll leave soloing this to people that can solo Ascension with a fighter - on Insane, like thetruth

In case anyone else has as many problems as I did, swarm them with Mord's swords. Be sure that each one is attacking a sword. Starting with a single Death Lord, breach it, and have your fighters whirlwind on it. Your fighters better have great AC or Hardiness (both are better). If your fighters take damage, move them away and heal them. Try to maintain the foes' attentions on the Mord swords.

This battle convinced me I should play more with a wild mage before jumping into the deep water. I was missing my sorcerer. It also suggested to me that I better pull out my super cheese fighter-mages to have an enjoyable time with IA.

[rbeverjr]

I would change the F/M/C with a R/C though.Better THACO and faster level-ups.

Also you could consider a F/T as well.Though the Swashbuckler can be an even better tank at high levels.His AC bonuses are insane.

I was actually thinking about R/C rather than FMC. At higher levels, I was thinking that the arcane spells would be more beneficial than the advantages of RC in IA. I haven't seen magic help much for the tough battles, except for stripping defenses. Remember, I have no XP cap. I also have a small override that allows me the choice of the best F, M, and Cleric HLAs. If you still recommend RC, I'll go with that.

I also considered F/T. I was actually playing a kensai 13-thief as part of the team in this battle. However, as you pointed out, I was thinking the Swashbuckler's AC may be beneficial. I should be able to hit around AC-20 or a little more with spell buffs.

[thetruth]

Good job rbeverjr
Though after forging the Judgement Day sword a much more difficult battle awaits.

I'll leave soloing this to people that can solo Ascension with a fighter - on Insane, like thetruth

Nah he wouldn't have any chance against the tough enemies of IA

I was actually thinking about R/C rather than FMC. At higher levels, I was thinking that the arcane spells would be more beneficial than the advantages of RC in IA. I haven't seen magic help much for the tough battles, except for stripping defenses. Remember, I have no XP cap. I also have a small override that allows me the choice of the best F, M, and Cleric HLAs. If you still recommend RC, I'll go with that.

Oh then the F/M/C will become eventually more powerful than the R/C.

But still I think that the R/C will be more useful for the bigger part of the game. He levels up faster and he will be a better Cleric too.And Ironskins will help a lot.

Anyway just remember to give high WIS to your character.Clerics get extra spells from high WIS.

I haven't seen magic help much for the tough battles, except for stripping defenses.

This is true for pure Arcane spell casters in IA.
Though I found I.Haste really invaluable since my characters (who dualwield) could use Critical Strike and not GWW when possible.

But they are not so deadly as they are in the original game or with other mods.On the other hand a F/M really shines in IA.

I also considered F/T. I was actually playing a kensai 13-thief as part of the team in this battle. However, as you pointed out, I was thinking the Swashbuckler's AC may be beneficial. I should be able to hit around AC-20 or a little more with spell buffs.

Yes the Swashbuckler don't have the backstab (not essential in IA anyway) but in high levels they could have even a permanent -24 AC with a Plate Armor + Shield.In attack their fighter's THACO and WW attacks can help a lot too.
And Timetraps can be the solution in many difficult battles especially in the SoA part of the game.

[Romulas]

you either fight with every party member (aka you must gather your party before proceeding), or avoid the encounter.

But still you don't have to fight with every party member.
You can always keep back your weaker party members, or even out of the enemy's visual range, without having to avoid the encounter.

To thetruth, actually you do. Two words, grave liche. It has to be how I would envision entering a meat grinder. You can protect some characters but others are going to die and die permanently.

Romulas (by the way thanks for some of the tips, I might even try some if I can force myself back to the computer after getting shlacked so many times)

[Sikret]

Hi, rbeverjr!

Welcome to BWL!

I was appalled that Carsomyr never seems to do anything.

You need to upgrade it.

Unfortunately, Saerileth took Soul Reaver out of the bag of holding and broke it.

It's been reported that Saerileth NPC (if installed with IA) will cause problems during the battle with Improved Draconis. It may also cause problems in other portions of the game. Perhaps you can confirm the conflict and report it to me by meeting Draconis once with and without Saerileth installed. If the conflict is confirmed, the general hint is to uninstall Saerileth as soon as you proceed to TOB. The 100% safe solution is not to install it with IA at all.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Sikret: Feb 26 2007, 02:10 PM

[rbeverjr]

@Sikret
I won't be able to confirm the Saerileth problem. The primary reason that I quit this game when I did is that it had become corrupted. I had a lot of mods installed and a conflict was introduced somewhere. I think the Xan mod wasn't cooperating with the rest - I got errors on the install, and some corrupted dialogue. I also had other indications of a messed up game. During the transition from SoA to ToB, 2 party members came with me and 2 stayed behind (momentarily). Saerileth mistakenly thought I was not Lawful Good (I was - I checked to confirm) and left. I just wanted to check out this mod some before starting up a new, hopefully uncorrupted game. I have decided to take Fade instead of Saerileth, more so now that you report that Saerileth could cause problems.

I started up a new game with IA, and I'm thinking presently that I want some levels and equipment before IA's added challenge. I like a more relaxed game than IA is providing. I want mooks (unnamed hirelings/minion troops, sidequests without important loot) to be relatively unchallenging. If I am attentive enough to play these encounters overmatched, then I should be working one of my 2 jobs. I've also installed several Tactics mods, including toughest random dungeon encounters. I'm thinking about installing AI after I reach level 15 or so, which should happen in the Underdark or slightly before, but I don't know. I'm also thinking about installing right before going to De'Arnis keep. We'll see. I can handle IA a lot better on Saturday mornings when I am actually awake...


This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Feb 26 2007, 03:30 PM

[Sikret]

I'm thinking about installing AI after I reach level 15 or so, which should happen in the Underdark or slightly before, but I don't know. I'm also thinking about installing right before going to De'Arnis keep.

This may be possible with IA v3, but not with IA v4. You will need to start a new game as soon as you install IA v4. It can't be installed in the middle of an ongoing game.

[Sikret]

double post deleted

Doubly deleted !

You sent the same post twice. I deleted one of them an you deleted the other one! Please edit your previous post again and add its content to it.

[rbeverjr]

I'm thinking about installing AI after I reach level 15 or so, which should happen in the Underdark or slightly before, but I don't know. I'm also thinking about installing right before going to De'Arnis keep.

This may be possible with IA v3, but not with IA v4. You will need to start a new game as soon as you install IA v4. It can't be installed in the middle of an ongoing game.

In that case, I hope that you have an allowed an avenue to XP, GP, and equipment at the beginning of the game for people that play half-asleep like me. I personally prefer the "install it if you want it" component method of Tactics. That way you don't get the rewards (XP, GP, equipment) of an improved encounter unless you play it. If you have items (in the item upgrade part of your work) that you feel are unbalancing and are not already controlled by their GP/component cost, then you can simply specify in the readme that you must install a certain battle to receive a rare component for this item upgrade.

I don't like it when the entire game is a grinding hack-n-slash. I want some very clear boss battles, rather than the entire game being made much more difficult. Don't take this comment as being overly critical as I've not played through IA v3 yet. However, my initial impression is that I will install the IA after I've gained some equipment and levels. I'm just hoping that IA4 is not too frustrating.

[rbeverjr]

I know the Morituri kit and though I consider it quite overpowered using it with IA or the XP CAP and other items/weapons out of the original game is not so cheesy anymore

Personally, I think that any fighter with Stoneskin and Protection from Magic Weapons and other spells is more "overpowered." Even with all the bonuses, the morituri is only a fighter. In particular, his immunity to Improved Haste HURTS. His inability to use potions (other than healing potions) and magical equipment (other than weapons and boots) also hurt. If the author makes him a good alignment only (fallen paladin) sort, it would be another huge penalty, because of Bhaal power selection. (I am more inclined towards the Living Arcanis viewpoint on the dieties myself.) He's also limited to being proficient with swords - no FoA for him. At high level, I think the morituri is probably the best fighter, but once again - he's only a fighter. A high level sorcerer or fighter-mage should munch him.

[thetruth]

Personally, I think that any fighter with Stoneskin and Protection from Magic Weapons and other spells is more "overpowered."

Who said that I don't consider F/Ms overpowered as well ?


But even a high level F/M with every protection possible can be defeated since his/her protections can be dispelled.

Now a Morituri at the XP CAP can have a "permanent" 100% resistance to physical damage ( 40% innate + 20% Defender of E. + 40% Hardiness).

Hardiness has a long duration at high levels (5-6 of them can get you through a high duration battle) and note that it is undispellable.
Now add on top of that a MR of near 100%, a -8 to saving throws, elemental resistances and other immunitites/abilities.

Honestly I can't find a more powerful kit out there.Maybe only the Druidic Sorcerer can be compared to power and even he will be much less effective with a mod like IA.

[Mordokai]

Hardiness has a long duration at high levels (5-6 of them can get you through a high duration battle) and note that it is undispellable.

But it can be breached. While it doesn't happen often, it does happen, and when it does, it can be painful Still, I agree, morituri is way overpowered, since it efectialy merges three already powerful classes together(monk, kensai, barbarian, iirc).

And if physical damage is a problem, Valygar can withstand that one very well too. New item that you get in ranger new quest + flail of defending and wounding + Judgement day + hardiness + shield of fate = 100+% physical damage. With the right potions, and his improved family armor, he is night unstopable. Luckily his family katana has been nerfed, he was way too powerful with that baby in his hands