Must forge items Options

[Mongerman]

Thought I'd start a thread discussing must forge items introduced by IA, so new players can decide where to spend their precious gold on.

Must forge items

1. Boots of impr haste - With belm in off hand, and gauntlets of extraordinary spec, its like having permanent GWW activated! Whats not to like? With these boots, you are free to take multiple critical strikes.

2. Memory of the Apprenti - 3 extra spells per level. With specialist class, thats 4 extra spells per level. You could stand forever in the midst of the most powerfull melee monsters and emerge without a stratch.

3. Holy avenger - When multiple RoR still dont work, never fret, holy avenger is here! Combine with time trap and a WW for extra effectiveness.

4. Improved Cat Figurine - Greater restoration on steriods, without exhausting the user. Enough said.

I havent gotten around to forging more weapons yet,so no opinions there for now.

[Clown]

By the end of TOB I had forged pretty much everything I wanted but the three I found most useful have to be:

1. Boots of improved haste, same reasons as above, just forged them for korgan in my new game

2. Greater Dijinni summoning ring, that Dijin can really take some damage, great for tying up groups of enemies in some of the tougher battles.

3. Flail of Defending and Wounding, give it to valygar and combine with armour of faith and hardiness for some useful resistances.

Cat figurine is pretty good if you dont have a pure class cleric and valygars new armour is very nice too. Cuttthroat plus five is also handy as it means you dont have to equip a plus two weapon to get that extra attack.

[Sikret]

News about items in IA v4.3:

(I) Usabilities:

1- Boots of Improved Haste will be usable only by rangers (rangers are scouts); however, if you upgrade the boots one step further to "Boots of Agility" (see the items file) then it will become usable by all (except monks) again.

2- Flail of Defending and Wounding will be usable only by single class rangers (unlike the boots of Improved Haste, the flail won't be usable by Ranger/Clerics --I have my own justification for this difference).

3- Holy Avenger will not be usable even by thieves who have "Use Any Item" ability.

4- "Judgement Day" and "The Truth" swords will not be usable by Fighter/mages (and other multiclass fighters) any more. Only single class (good) warriors can use them. thetruth had asked this from me even before the release of v4.2 but I had forgot to implement it. Now it is done for v4.3

(II) New item upgrades:

1- Keldorn's armor can be improved.

2- A new item upgrade is added which is specific to Vagrants. (A new armor is added to the game which is only usable by vagrant and stalker. It can be upgraded but only a vagrant protagonist can upgrade it.

[rbeverjr]

News about items in IA v4.3:

(I) Usabilities:

1- Boots of Improved Haste will be usable only by rangers (rangers are scouts); however, if you upgrade the boots one step further to "Boots of Agility" (see the items file) then it will become usable by all (except monks) again.

2- Flail of Defending and Wounding will be usable only by single class rangers (unlike the boots of Improved Haste, the flail won't be usable by Ranger/Clerics --I have my own justification for this difference).

3- Holy Avenger will not be usable even by thieves who have "Use Any Item" ability.

4- "Judgement Day" and "The Truth" swords will not be usable by Fighter/mages (and other multiclass fighters) any more. Only single class (good) warriors can use them. thetruth had asked this from me even before the release of v4.2 but I had forgot to implement it. Now it is done for v4.3

(II) New item upgrades:

1- Keldorn's armor can be improved.

2- A new item upgrade is added which is specific to Vagrants. (A new armor is added to the game which is only usable by vagrant and stalker. It can be upgraded but only a vagrant protagonist can upgrade it.

Personally, I have always thought that the UAI HLA was a bit much any way. Then I met, IA and decided differently. I am disappointed by the first 2 changes because I feel like any class could benefit from the boots of IH (75,000 cheaper than the other boots) and that any class that could use a flail could benefit from the FoDW. I don't particularly like rangers. This rule change will force me to dump the use of FoDW before I really wanted to, or stick to v. 4.2 for a while.

[Arkain]

Mhm... may we ask why you decided this? While I can try to understand the thing about the boots the other changes seem odd to me. Neither do I understand the restriction concerning the flail (why should only a single class ranger be capable of wielding the flail, which was forged using ingredents anyone can use?) nor do I get the part about the two swords. While I'm still not even close to forging them it's strange that only "real" fighters can use them. Well at least that's my feeling about it. The Truth (sword ) is some weapon of "a long lost high level warrior" (or something like that) iirc, so that makes sense, somehow. But why deny F/Ms etc. "Judgement Day"? It's a weapon one would likely get in the end of the game anyway, so what's the big deal? (*cough* on the contrary: What's the big deal with it being destined to be wielded by "true" warriors only if one gets it that late? )

This post has been edited by Arkain: May 31 2007, 07:44 PM

[Sikret]

I think the justification for denying Holy Avenger from thieves is clear enough. As for F/Ms not be able to use those two poweful swords, it's because F/M has already proven itself to be the most powerful class in IA. These restrictions can probably balance and fill the gap of power between F/Ms and single class warriors. I'm sure that F/M is still one of the best choices even with these restrictions. I also wanted to add bonuses to rangers to encourage players to play with them. In general, these changes are mainly aiming for filling the gap (power-wise) between some different classes.

[Sikret]

or stick to v. 4.2 for a while.

This is a very bad idea. Many more bugs of the original game are fixed in v4.3 (such as the bug with spell shield). Always play IA with its latest version; otherwise, you may face bugs which wouldn't exist in your game if you had upgraded the mod to its latest version. (To be able to use a flail and a pair of boots by a non-ranger character is not so much of a bonus for which you want to stick to v4.2 and miss all of the other new and important changes.)

[Mongerman]

Sikret, any plans on when you are going to release 4.3?

This post has been edited by Mongerman: Jun 1 2007, 02:12 PM

[Sikret]

Sikret, any plans on when you are going to release 4.3?

It's almost done. I just need to test the new guardian I have added to the level 3 of WK more carefully. Since he offers many dialogue options to you and since his reactions varies with different things you may tell him, it requires a thorough testing. Not to mention that my free time for modding/testing is too short on these days. (I was also thinking of doing something about Lilarcor not to be so easily available early in the game, but I doubt that I will find the time to do it for the forthcoming v4.3.)

As a side note: Players who are in the middle of a game with a vagrant ranger or a cavalier paladin will need to start a new game after updating the mod from v4.2 to v4.3 (others won't need to start a new game); so, if you are just about starting a new game, either don't choose any of these two kits or if you want to choose them wait for v4.3 before starting your new game.

[rbeverjr]

or stick to v. 4.2 for a while.

This is a very bad idea. Many more bugs of the original game are fixed in v4.3 (such as the bug with spell shield). Always play IA with its latest version; otherwise, you may face bugs which wouldn't exist in your game if you had upgraded the mod to its latest version. (To be able to use a flail and a pair of boots by a non-ranger character is not so much of a bonus for which you want to stick to v4.2 and miss all of the other new and important changes.)

I wonder if it was a bad idea to talk about the virtues of these two items (boots and flails) in the first place. The boots are nice early on to keep improved haste from being dispelled, particularly for those playing a fighter hero. By ToB, it's only a convenience. The flail, on the other hand, is very nice. (So nice that I was hoping to be a good enough tactical player to give it up someday.) I hate to be forced to play a ranger when I don't won't to do so, but I think I'm too poor a player to survive without the uber equipment that Sikret provides. I find my skill to be lacking in some battles - like Yaga-shura (other than the Demon Prince, this battle is the first real frustration since the underdark). Apparently, I need this uber equipment to survive - at least until I learn better tactics. I also wanted to avoid using the judgment day sword, because I thought it was too powerful - and extremely hard to win too as I found out, but Yaga-Shura has me rethinking that issue... I'll have to think about perhaps sticking to the "bad idea" of v 4.2.

Concerning balance and using items to bolster the power of specific classes, I think that's fine. (My gripe is that if anyone should be able to use a weapon, it is the fighter [straight, dual, or multi]. Ranger-only weapons seem weird to me.) Unless fighting demons, I'm not sure that thetruth longsword is a big advantage. On the other hand, the judgment day longsword is huge on balancing the power of the fighter with the fighter-mage. I think the fighter-mage should still have the edge though because he can buff and keep those buffs up with immunity abjuration and spell shield (as well as the tactical advantages of a large array of spells). For this balance to occur; however, the player must be good enough to beat the demon prince. I think I may have to go back to my save game and try some more on that demon prince...

[GotWangi]

Can't say I like these changes either. It feels like a cheesy way to force players to play certain class, and IMHO an ineffective one at that.

I dare say that not many people will play the same protagonist for a second time, so your comment about making other class more attractive seems rather moot. In fact, as I read through this forum, not too many people are using f/m or r/c as their protagonist either. I would say that applying more of your excellent extended stronghold quests to other class would prove to be more lucrative, no matter how underpowered that class may be.

I fail to see how making f/m unable to use those 2 swords will significantly help to bridge the power-gap either. Hence, I really doubt it will sway people away from people who hasn't really played f/m before.

Carsomyr, in my experience is not really useful even with time-trap. But part of this is perhaps because I upgraded it very late in SoA and by that time timestopping is not always a good idea, nor were there too many mages encounter left. Still though, I like the idea of UAI staying as it is, nerfing it just doesn't seem right considering how underpowered they already are compared to other classes.All in all, a change I don't really mind too much.

Now, the boots. I'm really against this change. IIRC unlike v3, you can only forge a pair in the entire game, and as others stated this is more like a convenience item rather than anything else. In the early level, this is a great jump in allowing your party to finally experience a "fun" epic encounters, rather than getting frustrated watching your whole party swing at that last stripped-of-all-protection monster, and yet unable to beat its regeneration rate. Also, forcing the upgrade to boots of agility really mess up with the way you play the npcs. Almost all of them require the gauntlet to be even remotely acceptable as a tank in IA, and there's only one pair in the game IIRC. To be frank, again this feels like a really desperate attempt to force players to use ranger, which most people already use anyway for the new contents.

Most of all though, I'm just really worried if this is any sign of the direction this great mod is heading. I really would prefer to see more new encounters, using different tactics, rather than more nerfing. Just my 2 cents.

PS : Off topic, but was the druid spell progression changed ? In my game Jaheira just hit that elusive level 15 druid and she didnt receive any additional lvl 7 spell?? IIRC druid received a huuuge power jump upon finally going over that 1.5mil exp wall. She's 16 now and still no sign of more lvl 7 slots =\

[thetruth]

PS : Off topic, but was the druid spell progression changed ? In my game Jaheira just hit that elusive level 15 druid and she didnt receive any additional lvl 7 spell?? IIRC druid received a huuuge power jump upon finally going over that 1.5mil exp wall. She's 16 now and still no sign of more lvl 7 slots =\

This is strange, she should have one 7 level spell at 14 level and six at 15 level. I had Jaheira in my party and she didn't have a similar problem.

[Sikret]

PS : Off topic, but was the druid spell progression changed ? In my game Jaheira just hit that elusive level 15 druid and she didnt receive any additional lvl 7 spell?? IIRC druid received a huuuge power jump upon finally going over that 1.5mil exp wall. She's 16 now and still no sign of more lvl 7 slots =\

This is strange, she should have one 7 level spell at 14 level and six at 15 level. I had Jaheira in my party and she didn't have a similar problem.

Those who have installed the Unnerfed THAC0 tables and pnp spell progression component of Ease-Of-Use won't receive those huge number of spells when their druid hits level 15.

[GotWangi]

Ah,that explains it.
Thanks Sikret.

[thetruth]

Those who have installed the Unnerfed THAC0 tables and pnp spell progression component of Ease-Of-Use won't receive those huge number of spells when their druid hits level 15.

Really? I thought that the PnP spell progression of EoU followed the 2ed rules.
And in the 2ed Druids do receive this huge number of spells when they reach level 15 (six 7 level spells).

[Romulas]

or stick to v. 4.2 for a while.

This is a very bad idea. Many more bugs of the original game are fixed in v4.3 (such as the bug with spell shield). Always play IA with its latest version; otherwise, you may face bugs which wouldn't exist in your game if you had upgraded the mod to its latest version. (To be able to use a flail and a pair of boots by a non-ranger character is not so much of a bonus for which you want to stick to v4.2 and miss all of the other new and important changes.)

Is it so bad to play a game the way you want to? It is after all my (and our) time that we are spending on it. Is the goal here to put out something that people can play or drive them away from it? It seems like a general goal of IA is to slash some classes and elevate others. To elevate others is a fine idea and one that I agree with, just not at the expense of the other classes, not in the way you are suggesting.

More pointedly, for your changes:

1) Judgement Day sword: I agree, its benefits best suit a fighter type class, the F/M can get those abilities anyway.

2) thetruth longsword: Questionable, I don't see it tipping the scales of power that much, it is good against the outer planar beings, a decent sword otherwise.

3) holy avenger: nuff said

4) flail and boots: My above statement holds for these two. A clear example of limiting all other classes.

For we that are not super at this game those boots actually give us a chance to beat some of the more difficult encounters before spellhold, for instance for the tough battles where the enemy has resistances to most weapon types, (golems, torgal, ect.) one logical way of countering this is to have more attacks, in this way we can at least have a chance.

As someone said earlier, to try and get players to play different classes, elevate those classes by expanding their stronghold, or as I suggest implementing new items for them only, not limiting already established items.

Romulas

[Shaitan]

For we that are not super at this game those boots actually give us a chance to beat some of the more difficult encounters before spellhold, for instance for the tough battles where the enemy has resistances to most weapon types, (golems, torgal, ect.) one logical way of countering this is to have more attacks, in this way we can at least have a chance.

As someone said earlier, to try and get players to play different classes, elevate those classes by expanding their stronghold, or as I suggest implementing new items for them only, not limiting already established items.

Amen to that

[thetruth]

2) thetruth longsword: Questionable, I don't see it tipping the scales of power that much, it is good against the outer planar beings, a decent sword otherwise.

Hey it's not Sikret's fault for that!
I had asked him to make it usable only by single-classed, good-aligned "warriors".

It's just how I see the sword,though I can't justify it's usage only by pure warriors ( ) But anyway, as you said, it's not even so powerful compared to other weapons (even some of the original game).

I agree with your other points though.

The Holy Avenger should be usable only by Paladins.
As for the Boots, for me they shouldn't be in the game at all, but that's an other issue.

This post has been edited by thetruth: Jun 3 2007, 07:25 PM

[rbeverjr]

I'm of 2 minds concerning Holy Avenger; so, I don't really care where this issue falls. I think that Holy Avenger should only be used by paladins. If I was as good a tactical player as thetruth, then I would stick to that opinion. On the other hand, a swashbuckler can presently use Holy Avenger more effectively than a paladin and can contribute more to the team in my opinion. Now if the inquisitor cast Remove Magic instead of Dispel Magic....

Concerning the longswords, I don't see it as reasonable to limit *a* longsword to pure fighters; however, these items are unique and could have special properties just like a holy avenger. (And an explanation of this restriction could be detailed in their description.) I don't think it will effect my game much either way. As it is now, anyone that can take the judgment day sword probably doesn't need it anyway. But then again, maybe a lot of reloading on that one encounter can save reloads later. That's what I'm counting on.

As someone pointed out before, making an item from ingredients usable by anyone into an item that is limited to a class doesn't make sense to me. This applies to boots. Rangers are scouts; so, they should have boots of improved haste? A scout could benefit from the tool of boots of speed (as could other folks), but boots of improved haste are for killers. The same reasoning also applies for the flail. Anyone who can use a flail can use the defender of easthaven, except when it is improved?

At any rate, the expressed opinions on these matters seem to be a consensus. So, there's not much more to say. It's up to Sikret.

[Sikret]

Those who have installed the Unnerfed THAC0 tables and pnp spell progression component of Ease-Of-Use won't receive those huge number of spells when their druid hits level 15.

Really? I thought that the PnP spell progression of EoU followed the 2ed rules.
And in the 2ed Druids do receive this huge number of spells when they reach level 15 (six 7 level spells).

Just checked my copy of 2nd edition "Player's Handbook" and didn't find six 7th level spells for 15th level druids. Druids actually use the same table that clerics use. I don't have access to the companion books at this moment though. Have I missed anything or is my book outdated?