I don't think Sikret meant to be hard on you Ryel ril Ers, but you are aware of the fact that the intention Sikret has with his mod is solely to play it without cheat/cheese? I think you are. You shouldn't start clauing - I think it would lead to more ethic issues later on You were warned with you bard before starting I think

Perhaps Sikret should propose one, two or three different partyline-ups as a sort of recommandations - what says you?

Happy playing

Regards

@Ryel

If you don't have a saved game before stealing the key, then there is little you can do in this case. Continue the game, but don't ever try to steal any "quest-related" item in the future.

Since I have a custom blade also, I try to steal ALL NPCs in the game who I can. Probably in the future version of IA, I won't use blade, and I completly forgot stealing in my 4.2 run. So I will report if I have found any suspicious item stealable.
I was able to steal a Helm of Glory from one of the temple, before I picked up the Illithium quest in another temple. After I did the quest I got a crappy +3 saves vs. Death Amulet. I don't know if stealable Helm of Glory is good or not...
I stole a Manual of Elaboration also and 2 Permanency scrolls. After I traded my experineces with Ryel, I have found there is at least 1 more stealable Permanency scroll in the city. Imho maybe 3 scrolls are too many. Anyway scrolls are useless if you are low at gold... And at end in 4.2 run I had more scrolls what I needed.

I don't know if it is questrelated, but the key to Gals guild in Brynnlaw can be stolen from the guard once you've entered via the courtesan... Sorry hijacking attempt ended here

The helm was also stealable i vanilla BG2, and it sure is a nice item from BG1.

I don't think there's too many permanency scrolls. It's dependent on the party composition I'd say.

I'm 100% certain that this was possible in Vanilla too. Maybe something to change in IA to force action of the player? (Though I think a stealable key places a nice roleplaying option to the game).



I don't think there are too many pick pocketable items in the game (or IA for that matter). Not everybody does a full pickpocketing of every NPC they come across. Those that do deserve a bonus every now and then.
I remember a protection from energy scroll I once stole from an Amnish Guard in a game a long time ago. I was really happy with that. People ought to be happy when they've put quite a bit of effort into stealing stuff. Besides, you will find permanency scrolls and manuals of elaboration throughout the game anyway. Why not allow players to pickpocket people and have them find them on their own? It's the early game gold and upgrade items that are hard to come by. The scrolls are rarely the problem (unless you use them a lot on very minor upgrades).

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 11 2008, 01:02 PM

Quest-related items should not be stealable. Many of them were stealable in the vanilla game which I have already fixed. You shouldn't gain the big amount of xp for completing an entire quest (such as the windspear Hills) just by doing a simple pocket picking. This is cheese; it's not role playing. Why not to CLUA the xp if the player looks for such easy-gaining experience points? An IA player should not even think of such methods in the first place; otherwise, why to play IA at all? Gaining the quest's xp now and then returning to actually complete the quest much later is not what I would call "role playing".

I have already made many similar items "unstealable". It's a pity that this one had escaped my attention. The bad side of having excellent tactical experts as testers of this mod was that they didn't attempt such methods themselves during the game and consequently, they did not report them to me.

@Ryel

You can at least return there to fight with Conster as soon as possible before starting any other quest. This will (to some extent, though not fully) tighten the gap between gaining the xp and completing the quest.

Well, if you do gain the full XP that way then indeed, it's an exploit/unfortunate shortcut. You could still allow an RP element by giving merely a small portion of the XP if the key was stolen (with something like a global variable indicating that the the guard is not dead yet), and a full XP reward if the quest was completed properly (there's 3 ways to do that quest iirc).
Vanilla does such things at times too though not with thieving skills. If you choose the wrong diplomatic answers in banters and such you can get less XP and less item rewards.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 11 2008, 02:08 PM

@Sikret
I don't know how do you play or tell a pen and pencil game but the quest experience is the reward of done a very challenging task. Tha task was rescue the noble's daughter, we do it, she doesn't hurted, we are alive so we deserved the reward. As i said it was challenging because i tried kill Conster (i pick pocket him because roleplaying reasons: if i had the key Conster cannot kill her so easily, and he cannot use her as hostage) and when i saw he is too tought for my party soo we done the priority task and we saved the girl, i sacrifice two character and some staff what i cannot carry with me. (i only load a game when i try to find a bug /in that case i always wrote it to you/ or my PC is died)

I get less XP because i don't killed Conster.
I complate the quest.

Do you think the role playing game is only chain of the battles?
We deserved that experience because we done the quest if i don't think it i load the save in the watcher's keep and i drop 8 hours game.

I love your mod so why do you want to hate it?
I don't use any cheat or cheese in my game, and i find and tell you at least 4 cheese method. (i am programmer so i easily find bugs in any program)

As i said we cannot defeat Conster now, if we could do it than i didn't choose the tricky way.

PART 6 Updated with my yesturday evening and my today evening adventures.

Another strange:
The minute meteor works with dual wield (i don't know how possible solve this problem, and i think this equipment cool).
The improved haste doesn't work with offensive spin because the second spell overwrite the first. So everybody who use blade always cast impoved haste after offensive spin, you can't get one more extra attack from spin but you get maximum damage this is very cool with minute meteor because you can do 100 damage in one round if all of the meteors hit, but they have bad thaco .

PART 7 also updated with my new experiences in the temple sewers.

This post has been edited by Ryel ril Ers: Jan 11 2008, 11:58 PM

That's a well-known glitch which also affects Energy Blades and any other spell-created weapon. Needless to say you should unequip your off-hand weapon when you use the Meteors otherwise you can attack from a distance with it (clearly an exploit).

@Ryel

At first, I thought your only problem was that you didn't have a saved game before stealing the key. You even asked for an alternate solution and I offered one to you (i.e. to return and fight with Conster before it's too late and before doing anything else). You didn't accept the solution and started other quests and even tried to justify your course of actions. This thread no longer qualifies my criteria of a non-cheesy game-play. Your party is now approximately one level higher than what it should be, because you have undeservedly gained the entire xp for the windspear Hills quest: A quest which you have not actually completed in any of the intended ways.

I'm really sorry, but I'll appreciate if you stop posting in this thread. If you want to play with such methods and to ignore my requests and suggestions of how to amend your course of action, do it for yourself. Public journals sent to this forum have to qualify very strong and strict criteria of non-cheesiness (I even consider your hit&run method with the Horrid Rakshasa to be very cheesy; I had even written in another thread that running while fighting with that Rakshasa is cheesy.)

If loving or hating this mod (for you) depends on my opinion about your playing style (rather than on the mod's actual content), then so be it. I have an unremovable hatred towards cheese and cheat and also very strong criteria for what is to be called "cheese".

At first my only problem really was i didn't have saved game before the key, but ....
1) If you ask me to load, then i loaded and i missed 8 hour game. You didn't ask me, you command me!
2) It was REAL role playing reason, read it once more, and tell me if you tell this story in a real pen and pencil game why don't you allow this solution.
3) It was tought because i try kill him but we was weak so we flee, instead the load.

So i thought i have the truth and instead you write down your arguments, you started a witch hunt, with the doctrine of the cheese.

About the rakhasa:
Stay in the area of most dangerous spell is not roleplaying. It is only idiocy. If we had prot from energy, we don't allow him time to regenerate.
I i see the skull of a horrid wilting or the clouds of storm of vegeance we run. The greatest marshalls of the history was done retreat too if they need it. The retreat doesn't cheese it is only one element of the tactics, if you can flee when you need and you can get one's ducks in a row, than you have the half victory.
Yes i usually disperse my party in all direction, i usually hold one or two fighters in hidden if an area spell fix up my front i have fresh fighters. I rarely needed to load with this tactics.



This isn't hit-and run? I use the same tactics on other enemy and it is cheese.
I killed TorGal without retreat we resist his storm, if i kill first the golem after the trolls and in the end torgal that is cheese method too because i don't use that tactics what you think?


Summa summarum:
You force your style to your players. You force your favorite class your players. You banish those who play different than you (sometimes they play without cheese too). I think rest before a battle to rememorize is cheese, some players think it is necessery. I always use the same repertoire with small changes. I don't prepare only that case somebody warn me in the game (like Aran and the vampires, or nalia and the trolls). I don't save often because if i risk lots of game tim, i can use better tactics, but i don't think the save after every step is cheesing, i only don't use it.

We accept your owerpowered ranger and druid class, we accept that you perished the thief class, and the way of the backstabbing, we accept that the rangers are the coolest class forever, we accept all of your everything you create.

Please, accept that we, players are not you, we sometimes plays different ways.

If you think i am a dirty cheeser than i stop my walkthrough here. If i find another bug in the future i send it, because i love your mod, but i hate your black-and-white-i-am-the-god-who-judge-the-faithless mentality.

Yes i know you likely delete this post and close the topics, yes i repost it, yes i wait the ban. So please censure me!


PS.: YOUR MODE IS AWSOME IN TACTICAL VIEW!!!! Thank you!

PS.2: See the malison spell i think that not-hostile also like the emotion (the beholders in temple sewers don't react to it if i cast off-screen).

No, I didn't command. I just said that I would lose interest in your topic if you don't reload. Everyone is free to play the mod in the way he enjoys, but sending public journals is only allowed for non-cheesy ones (but see below).

All of us others defeated Conster with a party of the same level as yours. If your party was weak for this battle (perhaps for a different party composition, then you should have postponed the battle for a later time rather than stealing the xp). Every class has its own advantages and disadvantages. You won some battles more easily because you had a blade. Some other battles are surely harder if you have a bard rather than a backup mage. You should be prepared to accept your party's weaknesses and postpone those particular battles.



Which means instead of running, you should have postponed the battle to a later time when you had the mentioned spell.

Strategic and step by step retreat is much different than running. Don't misinterprete my words.



No, I didn't run. The retreat took place step by step, slowly and while engaged in combat.

Who said this?



No, it's none of my business how you want to play; but if you want to send public journals in IA's forum, I expect you to follow some rules. If you do not send anything, you can play in any way you desire (but see the end of this post).

You tried to add a disadvantage to the kit and you saw that it was not a good decision. You still repeat that kit is overpowered. Funny!



See above. You can play in any way you want as long as youdon't post the reports in IA's forum (but see below).

I see that you are under the influence of the lies some people have said about me and BWL. We only delete heavily insulting posts or posts which contain very bad and unnecessary spoilers or those which violate the forums terms of use.



You are welcome.



I will check it; but how is it that you are the only player who keeps trying to cast spells from offscreen?

I think it's not a bad idea if Baronius moves this topic to the gaming forum. Players who are not willing to follow my strong criteria for non-cheesy style, can send their reports there instead. In this way, they will be able to send their journals and my time will also be saved. I won't read them (though I may sometimes check them to make sure that heavy spoilers are not sent).

The topic can have a good place in our BG2 Gaming Forum -- the whole discussion can be continued there, and Ryel can keep posting his experiences as well. Those players who don't follow all guidelines needed to post journals in IA forum but don't cheat and don't post heavy spoilers (and use spoiler tags for ordinary spoilers) can also post their IA experiences in the BG2 SoA/ToB forum -- in a separate, new topic if needed, because sometimes it's not good to post everything (read: journals of different players) in one thread.

I'll move the topic there after some time (so nobody will think it just disappeared), so if you don't find it here, it will be in the BG2 forum. (Of course, feel free to reply even if the topic is still in the IA forum -- the move doesn't technically require the discussion to be paused).

Thanks, Baronius!

Needless to add that other players who want to send their journals and reports should send them in IA's forum as the default forum for such posts. Suggestions made by players in the mod's own forum will have much more chance of being seen and considered. The reports will also be noticed by a bigger number of players. Moreover, I will not miss any questions directed at me if they are written in IA's forum. In short, IA's forum is the default place for sending reports and journals. The general gaming forum will only be used for specific cases such as this one.

First time you don't use the please so you command me. I hope this is only misunderstand because i am not native english speaker.

SPOILER!


Yes i had different party. As i said i believe i don't steal XP. You think different. You marked me cheeser, i marked you anti-roleplayer, because that. I accept my weaknesses and my lose so i retreat. I miss a good 20k xp and some treasure because it but later i defeat him.
Read the journal:



Conster's name nowhere. Yes he is dangerous because he remain alive, but Firkraag remain alive too, so you can only save completely the Windspears when you kill the wyrm finally.
As i said if i tell this story in pen and pencil, i add the same xp if the party kill him or he remain alive. Because:
they stay alive that a red dragon play with them, and they can rescue the girl. That was a non-violent way.

How your characters know there is a rakhasha before them so the mage strangely memorize some prot from energy and prebuffed the whole party? How know your mage that the rakhasha that he/she see first time will cast horrid wilting? You know it but your characters don't, this is the hardest thing in the roleplaying.
My party don't know what will before them i only use long lasting buffs when i enter a dungeon, like haste and spirit armor, and stoneskin. I only use my short buffs in the battle, that is the reason i need retreat often. If i can explore the area with farsight or scout that means, then i use prebuff and specifics tactics, and sometimes i cast the first speel in offscreen because my sorc explore the position of the monster in invisible state, and he know where he need cast it (but the enemy don't react to it then i don't use the offscreen casting or we go to the enemy sigh, if i failed the first spell i don't load it instead i go to enemy sight if they don't attack me), if i cannot explore the area because we go to another map or the enemy see my invisible scout, that means the surprise is with the enemy so i don't use prebuffs.
I play in this mode, and sometimes i sucks because of it (example i need one more specific spell or i lose slots because i always memorise chaotic command, remove paralise, zone of sweet air), but i can only enjoy the game in this style. In my opinion the resting before a specific battle to memorize the key spell is cheesing too, lots of players use it but i don't like it.



It is possible tha i used wrong words. I mean when i retreat i flee with my hurted character and my casters first while the lightly injured characters fight with the enemy, when my injured characters in safe i start heal and buffed them and i put back a bit my front. The second turn my front is in the half way to the safe so in that round i heal my injured characters, and they can drink potions. The third room i put back my front behind my first fleeing fighters or my supply fighter who remain in distance. So in the third round i change my fronliners and i can start healing and buffing the previous frontliners. This is a good compromissum with the defense and offense. My injured characters only hurted one time from the cloud, my non-injured characters hurted two times but they can hurt the enemy too so he cannot regenerate.

Sorry, i was too ironic a bit.



I think it is democracy in the forum...

Yes i try add disadventage, but it was too big, but i think the vagrants need some disadventage, but i don't know wich way.
The cannot use helmet is too big disadvantege to accept in a party where only one more fighter can use helmet. I think if i had this idea before i start the game, i construct other party (pl, i choose paladin instead the kensai) and i can accept the helmet disadvantage.
In the party i will use the vagrant like you create it because i think it is overpowered so i want to try it if i have the true.




Sorry, i think that you will censure me because i write "cheese methods" and you fear possibility that i have the truth.
I thank you to see me equal people!!! I so sorry that i write that line!!!



I not just play with your mod i spend hours with searching bugs too!!! I found some useful, so you can protect them to the players cannot use it and they cannot say that was easy!

Yes i use offscreen casting. But only and only that case if my sorcerer can explore the area before it and i always cast one spell without loading and after we attack the enemy. If the enemy catch my sorcerer then i don't load instead i flee with him and i fight in bad situation.
This is also a rpg reason.

I believe with all of my heart that i don't use cheese, so if you simply say that without reasons then you hurt me becuse you say i am liar.
If you say me the reasons why my tactics cheese, i accept it, but please write down the reasons, not just say it is cheese because i say it.
Some players could think this is a tyrant attitude.

I would like continue my progress in this topics. I use strong rules in my games too, because in my game the roleplay is the first priority so i can miss some content, lots of xp and reward because i don't use multi stronghold (i think very funny when the vagrant PC has a fortification like the fighters, he is the archdruid of the grove and he has the planar sphere and he teach magic to his novices), if i use cheese method because i save Garren's child with sacrifice two of my casters, and some items then you also cheeser because you get lots of more xp from the strongholds.
Yes i know you must fight for it but i must fight for my flee also and i lose 2400 gold and lots of item because two of my characters died. I can load it but as i said i only load if i try find bug and my pc is dying.

I hope you understand me.

I'm tired of this thread, Ryel! I explained my reasons clearly but you don't want to see them: Stealing the key from Conster is not an acceptable solution of the quest because the stealable key is a vanilla game bug. The key should not be stealable in the first place and I have already fixed the bug for the next version of the mod. You can't steal an item which is not stealable; if you did steal it in your game, it was nothing but exploiting a vanilla game bug. I hope it's clear now.



According to your own report, the reason for which you didn't use the spell was that you didn't have it.

Moreover, if you confine yourself to only using the sort of buffs which have long durations, your party won't survive for long; I can guarantee that. And I'm sure that you have not been doing this even do far. Every time you cast Death Ward, Chaotic Commands or Improved Haste before a battle, you are acting against what you said, because all of these spells (and more others) have shorter durations than Protection from Magic Energy.

Installing the multiple stronghold has made the game much more challenging for me. One example is the battle with improved Faldorn in IA which is extremely more difficult when multiple strongholds is installed. Other examples are other improved battles in other strongholds. How do you compare this with stealing a key which should have been unstealable in the first place and the fact that it's stealable in the vanilla game is nothing but a bug?

I won't read this thread any longer as soon as it is moved to the other forum; it's really a waste of time.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 15 2008, 09:30 AM

Good day to my readers, we moved here, because the master of IA wanted it.
I will follow my story as soon as possible. I want to write a walktrough to the IA and it will contains at least the 80% of the battle of IA.

Thank you the PMs, it was nice. I won't search more bug because Sikret don't want another tester (but if i find one i report it), i will only play, enjoy and write it to you. I wait everybody who want to share his progress report, please write it. I hope this will be a good topics.

Thank you!

This post has been edited by Ryel ril Ers: Jan 13 2008, 08:02 PM

A mistake happaned so i wrote to Sikret: