The topics a little bit strange, but i want to hear pros and contras of the "weak" classes.

One: The players see what are the worst choices, and which character better that position.
Two: There are nonliked classes and i want hear that they are really useless.

Too early to say anything, but the thief/cleric is a potent class, but they have a big disadvantege:

The thiving button is in the special ability groub because it is replaced by the turn undead button.

The Weakest single Class is the Monk, because he is the weakest in early game. Of course, he is brutal at the and, but which Class isn't.
The weakest multiclass is Thief-Cleric, because few spells, few ThS-s, for a Single class, but too much ThS-s, as needed.
The Weakest Dualcasses are the divine spell user, which a non spellcaster class have in second class, because too few spells.

Monk:
the worst class in the beginning of the game (in irenicus dungeon) the blade and the two triple class. The monk have better thaco and a spirit armor or barskin solve his AC problems.

Thief/Cleric
In the beginnig he weak a bit but when he get the 5 level spell he will rock:
Slay living or harm from hide (with non-detection).
Blade barrier from hide. (cheese)
You can make him Thief/Fighter with a spell and you can backstab with club or staff (staff of ram example).
The righteous magic grant you max damage and plus hp for backstab.
You can use time trap with cleric spells. You can use several timetrap in different location so when you need it you must only retreat and the enemy cannot break your spell.
Combination of arcane and divine magic (with scrolls perhaps)
Theese methods except the last two don't work in IA so he is very frustrating character.

Divine->Non Spellcaster
A late level 13 druid is cool as fighter. You gain lot of spells from level 1-6 and you regain your abilitys back before you can get your level 14.
The cleric thief have better thaco than a normal and you get some interesting spell like i write it to thief/cleric. At 11 level you have spell up level 5 so it is as good in features than you choose single class thief with kit. And you get better hp (108 with normal mode and 16 con instead 80)!

The Cleric->ranger is also interesting character because you trade some hp and you get more spell like ironskin, champions strength. I will try it once.

In my opinion the mage->non spellcaster is the worst because the the mage in the best cases get 60 hp at level 10, and that is funny with a non-spellcaster.


Huh i get some idea.

The Blade, and the triple classes can use missile weapons, the monk can't (?)

The Slay Living is very risky, because the saving throw, and if the opponent makes the sve, one lvl 5 spell is waste.
The Hideous Barrier is more cheese, as the misleaded bardsong
Yes, he could a FT, but only with 1 attack/round effectively
R. Magic, also 1 attack/Round effectively
You can reach 4 attack / turn (dualwield+imp. haste), but in this case, you will have a very High THACO.
Cleric->thief only with maybe the lathander priest
With a mage-> non spellcaster you will have some useful low-mid lvl spells, like Stoneskin, Mir. image, Haste, Knock, maybe a Spell Immunity, MeMiMe, etc, so the mage->non spellcaster can be very-very cool class with the right tactic, because the low HP

Monk:
They can use missile weapon: daggers, darts and sling (the solo monks always use sling of everard +5 against kangaxx).
Everybody say: poor monks has bullshit ac in the beginning, but in a team the spirit armor make them godly ac and saves, because they get ac bonus. They also can use bracers so in party they have the best ac!!!
They attack 2 per round with the damage of a katana! At level 12 their damage is like a two handed sword.
They have a moderate ability what stun the enemy, and they can sneak so their first attack with it is make with +4 modifier so the enemy with a small luck is only a statue after it.
They are a moderate class in the beginnig and they will be gods in the and.

Cleric/Thief
Hey guys you really hate this class.
Yes the slay living risky but sometimes very good choice. Expecially if in the battle. your sorc/mage cast malison for emotion/greater command or only for the damage spell (less people use it but lots of damage spell only do half damage if the enemy roll the save) and my cleric/thief use slay living on him. If he do the save you damage a bit on him. The real weapon is the harm! Without save only with a simple hidden attac you drop the enemy to 1 hp so your caster easily finish him with a simple minor drain. (In the IA Sikret nerfed the spell so the target able to roll a save )

1 attack/round means 1 backstab/ round this is the maximum backstab amount for a thief except he has luck and dagger of star.
I calculate a bit and they are the third best backstabbers in the game!

You said their thaco is high? I said my level 10/12 gnome cleric thief have the same thaco in backstab then my level 11 half-orc kensai (they have same amount xp)!!!
The secret is the follow:
Holy Power: he get the base thaco of a level 10 fighter (always get better base thaco than a fighter/thief because the cleric level up faster) and 18/00 strength and +10 hp for 1 turn
Draw upon holy might +3 strength +3 dex +3 con you have 21 strength with it
Righteous magic: max damage and +10 more hp
Champion strength +3 more thaco optional because you lose your casting ability.
with staff of striking you can do 73 backstab damage in this low level (4x backstab only) but in the end you get staff of ram and you will be the third best backstabber after the kensai->thief and the assasin.
The one attack no problem if you want to backstab.
I not recommended the dual wield because you only put into one star to it. When they not backstab they can detect illusions, buff the party and heal, and there are some good offensive cleric spell too.

Cleric->Thief
The thalos variant also good. (You backstab and while you flee you can drop some lighting bolt )

Mage->Non-spellcaster
I think on normal difficulty not too wrong but on core they have pitiless hp such as ~40 and they died from the first fireball or a critical hit if the enemy crush your protection. If you can summon famillar (you are the pc) have 52 hp.

You are right, bur with 4 spell preparations to a backstab...
Those creatures, who really need these preparations, they are immune to backstab.
This can use maybe only against illithids

The fighter/mages also need lots of preparations. If you don't need backstab then you able to use it like a cleric.
I didn't say that the cleric/thief is the best uber brutal character i only said that not the worst and very funny character.

This poll is very interesting. Trufa it seems that peoples doesn't like our favorite classes (bard and druid), but it isn't significant because very few people voted.

Somebody who voted to bard or druid :
would you please write som cons about theese classes?

Oh i forget that i voted to the druid:

Because i think this is the most unnecessery class
the fighters had the best thaco and damage
the rangers and paladins like the fighters but they have some insteresting ability
the single class thieves are very good (the bounty hunter's traps are extremely good in tactical reasons, the assasin good backstabber and the poison weapon is very good against mages and the swashbuckers is almost as good then the fighters ) at high level they can use all of the item in the game (mage scrolls too)
the bards are the best single class tanks with more powerful spells then the mages
the cleric are the expert healers and buffers because of the greater restoration and the free action also must have. they fight much better then the druids and his caster level more too
the mages.... i cannot say any new

The druids are good summoners and healers but they cannot do anything then sit in the back row and see the battle if they are single class. The shapeshifter is good tank but the bards are better. I think that the planetars/devas and the skeleton warriors better summons than the elemental princes so the druids is second in all position.

Sorry trufa!

Yes, all you said, is true, with the plain druid, but...

The Kensai Druid has better thaco, as the Fighter/berserker->priest, and almost the same protection, with the horde of barkskin spells. The saves is better than the F/B->P

The Berserker Druid (great idea, thanks) is a brutal full plated character, with Skin, and Impaler. Do I need to say any more?

Totemist He has the most of summons, there isn't as much summonkiller spell in the game to destroy all of his summons, and hasted/def.harmed spirit animals rocks, and maybe they can be protected with death ward

Avenger Aerie, in one Class. Very good healer, and when needed, he can cast some nice wizard spells too. And so he can go imp invisible near to a mage, than insect plague/Creeping doom before the mage sets up his defenses.

Shapeshifter A good tank, with some very nice permanent resistances, especially from lvl 13.

multiclassed Fighter DruidA full plated warrior with Impaler and Whirlwind, and skin. Do I need to say any more?


So the druid is a good charachter, but he needs some experience, how to play with him, and not as simple as some warrior/priests/mages, and from 3M XP, (S)he has very much high lvl spells.