I hate to admit it, but I wonder if Grachus's Wind Horrors are too much for the particular party I'm using. My guess is I could probably take Grachus and only the three summoned undead humans. But not along with those four Horrors as well.

I'm using an unconventional party composition, and I guess it's now catching up with me:

PC Wild Mage 7
Imoen Thief 8
Minsc Berserker 8 (via Drew's mini-mod)
Xzar Necomancer 7
Tiax Cleric 6/Thief 7
Finch Cleric 7

I just cannot seem to find a way to fend off Grachus' seven powerful undead summons. I'm at the point where I'm considering going back to a pre-Grey Clan save and leaving this adventure for a future, more conventional party.

Before I give up, any thoughts on how I can get defeat Grachus with this bunch?

(Note: I'm playing with Sword Coast Stratagems installed. I have no idea if those amazing AI tweaks overlap with TGC's content or not, but they don't appear to.)

I haven't checked how Strategems affects the difficulty, but as far as scripts are concerned, most (if not all) Grey Clan enemies have their own scripts, so other mods shouldn't influence them.

Wind Horrors are one of the most powerful servants of Xephistagoras (mentor of Grachus). Try to lure them to Tergius with a fast/hasted character. Talibehius should also help, his armour isn't particularly massive though. There is a complete solution of the Grachus battle here: http://greyclan.blackwyrmlair.net/ep1/extras_2.html
With some adjustments for your party, I think it's possible to win the battle with that tactic.

Ah! Thanks, well I feel a little better about it now, having looked at the solution. It struck me as possibly unwinnable even with a tank heavy party.

Minsc with the true Berserker ability is immune to mind affecting spells, so he can act as rodeo clown to lure the enemy to Tergius.

This party has actually been doing quite well with the much vastly improved opponents that SCS throws at you. So far I seem to have worked out how to get the most out of them. But I guess that'll be put to a hard test now.

I went back to an earlier save to putter around a bit in BG city. So very shortly I'll have another go at it. Thanks again!

Or if u don't want to take them to Tergius, try escaping and fight with 1 or 2 of them per fight, it's much more easy Don't kill them BEFORE speaking with Grachus 'cause they spawn again after the talk with him ...

Baronius: nice job here, good mod ... but it's not finished of course, look forward to play the 2nd episode too

Cheers!

mm75

I tried luring the Wind Horrors away one at a time, killed them all, went into the temple and rested before taking on Grachus. But as you say, he respawns the buggers. When I initiate Grachus' dialogue first, he immediately spawns the additional 3 undead humans. Because then everyone in his mob has seen the party, all seven summoned creatures plus Grachus overwhelm the party.

This is a wonderful mod! Can't wait to see the adventure continued. But I have to say that the outstanding AI of Sword Coast Stratagems virtually revolutionizes the gameplay of BG1 Tutu. It's a gigantic leap.

Baronius, as excellent a job as you have done with pre-SCS scripting, you should look into a scripting overhaul using SCS. Because very soon SCS will become a 'must-have' included in everyone's Tutu modlist. Some of the SCS AI features:

* no more luring enemies away from the mob one at a time--enemies call for help
* enemy spellcasters (both mages and clerics) are vastly improved:
- buff themselves
- can detect stealth and invisibility
- use a much, much wider selection of spells--spells that are actually effective--and use them smartly
- use scrolls and wands
* enemies target party members much more intelligently--wizards and ranged weapons users are not necessarily safe in the back row anymore
* enemy deployment is much smarter overall
* most key creatures have been made substantially more difficult

If you've ever been bothered by the fact that in vanilla BG enemies stupidly don't use the very same resources that are at the party's disposal, this Tutu mod fixes that. As I say, it's a pretty giant leap from enemies stupidly never using the same resources that are at the party's disposal (potions, wands, and a wide variety of spells) at all, to their using it--and using it smartly! And to go from remaining utterly oblivious to one another (allowing them to be lured away one at a time) to supporting each other in battle.

SCS's AI is far superior to BG2's vanilla AI. In terms of strategy in combat, it makes BG1 a far more challening game to play than BG2/ToB (where you simply cast Breach and other protection removing spells). And it's only a matter of time before it gets applied to BG2, which should be awesome.

SCS is essentially the Tutu equivalent of Tactics--although it adds much, much more than Tactics does. And it is outstanding. Beautifully done by DavidW at Gibberlings 3.

Thanks for the compliment, but did you finish it successlly then? You say the enemies overwhelm the party, on the other hand you look forward to the next installment... I guess you defeated Grachus, and won the final battle, but not easily, right?

I don't doubt that there might be things which could be learned and adopted from SCS, but while Stratagems is a BG1Tutu-only mod utilizing BG2's possibilities (and based on what you say, it's one of the best), Grey Clan is a mod for original BG1, and its BG1 version is what gets converted to Tutu. BG1 and BG2 (Tutu) script engines are quite different in several respects. I've tried to do my best when converting it to Tutu (even changing certain scripts), but I couldn't afford the time to completely rewrite and optimize BG1 TGC scripts for Tutu. Grey Clan's non-Tutu (BG1) edition has more than 1500 downloads at the moment, which reflects that there are still players who prefer original BG1 to Tutu, and being one of them, all of my BG mods also work without Tutu.

I'm sure it is. I think that the developers of BG2 didn't add such elements intentionally to the original game, because it would have become too hard for many players. They wanted even bigger success than BG1 (i.e. many more players, greater success, bigger profit), so BG2 isn't as realistic as BG1 (this is off-topic now), and isn't as hard as BG1 in core difficulty level. While I don't say they intentionally added stupid AI at certain places, I think they were not eager to make the game more difficult. This is why good mods are important: they give the option of bigger challenge to players, while those who don't need more difficulty can be happy with the original settings.

This is very good news. It must be refreshing to see such novelties. In the original game, there are a few determined script templates for spellcasters (such as mages or clerics), and practically all of them uses these.

On the other hand, do you feel the Clan's major spellcasters were not clever enough in battle? For example, one the High Sorceresses attacks your party from the worst direction if you're unprepared...

Thanks! I've news about Ep2, by the way. I'll start with the less pleasant news.
Bad: 2007 summer as earliest release.
Good: I promise I'll release it some day, and won't abandon the project.
Better: Unless something unexpected comes up, the summer of 2007 is a quite possible release date.
Best: It will be much longer than Ep1, with a lot of new content! (Not sure this is actual news though...)

Lemernis, I love ya, man, but *please* do not tempt Baronius into modifying his battle scripts -- I really enjoy this mod, but already have about a 10% battle success rate against Grachus (and have even resorted to the dreaded "Ctrl-Y Solution" for the Sorceresses upon occasion!) The battles in TGCep1 are truly nail-biting, down-to-the-last-hp, spells-exhausted, grabbing-sand-and-stones-to-sling-at-the-enemy-in-desperation affairs for me WITHOUT Baronius fully availing himself of the BG2 scripting materials! I am not the best (or even a good) strategist, and tend to play core rules with no change in difficulty slider; what I now enjoy is what you enjoy. SCS makes the jump in level between easy (regular unmodded) and "rack your brains and use all your brain cells and every resource" hard (TGCep1) much more of a balance. Thank goodness Baronius uses custom scripting; much more difficult, and I think my brain would exlode in the "Chunked" animation. Messy!

I'm still playing through the mod, and I will prevail against Grachus, heh! I spent this morning thinking about crafting, so I didn't get back to playing it yet.

Please don't misunderstand, I have no criticism of the Grey Clan mod at all. I'm having a grand time with the adventure, and battles so far, they're great. I love the mod in it's current form, and not a thing need be changed. It's awesome. I'm just pointing out that SCS seems destined to set a whole new standard for combat AI. And in time certain tactics like luring enemies away may begin to suffer in comparison. Just giving Baronius a head's up to take a look at that. But anyway, I agree that TGC can remain exactly as it is and provide it's own equally satisfying entertainment alongside SCS.

I'm most grateful for your feedback on this and other mods, so no worries, and if you have criticism, feel free to tell it. I'm open to suggestions. I admit that the Tutu version's scripts could be more refined, utilizing the possibilities of the BG2 engine, but as I've said, it is because the mod was developed and optimized for non-Tutu BG1.

It's also good to hear that Grey Clan Ep1 works with SCS, i.e. there are no compatibility issues. I don't know of other mods either that have compatibility problems with GCE1, but we can only be 100% sure when someone practically tests the mods together.

Good luck! If you feel it's required, you can lure the whole group of enemies to Tergius, the Dwarves or Damien's men. However, if a lethal hit doesn't come from one of your party members, you will obviously gain no XP for that enemy.

Grachus gets my award for the cheesiest opponent in BGtutu. Just when I thought I had him defeated ... BOOM some random tattoo goes off.

Heck, compared to Grachus, the final battle is trivial (I was able to solo it with an assasin). I ended up hasting my assasin and equipping him with boots of speed (for double speed ) and lured Grachus to Tergius where I had my PC repeatedly backstab him until he died.

Don't misunderstand me here; I love a challenge. I just wish my main character could get all kinds of tatoos like that

Well, I led Grachus to Tergius and he killed Tergius. While he was duking it out with Tergius I managed to lead his Moon Horrors to the dwarves, with two dwarves left standing after the battle. Grachus was left uninjured and he simply summons a fresh batch of Moon Horrors when I try to lure him to the party and the two remaining dwarves. For this party it appears there's no chance against them with the suport of only two dwarves.

My party has only one tank, Minsc. And without the high level magic required to defeat an opponent like Grachus and his Horrors, I fear this battle is unwinnable. After viewing what happened to Tergius, I expect that magic-wise I'd need a ToB level mage to defeat them. And lacking that high level magic, my guess is I'd need at least three heavily armored warrior classes in the party to have a prayer (with Tergius still alive to help, that is).

I guess it's back to a save before finding Jusam for me. I'll definitely try TGC again in a future game, though, where the party is more conventional.

It seems Grachus improved as much in Tutu as the graphics of BG1. But you shouldn't give it up so early! Your character levels are okay, and the party is capable of defeating Dark Grachus. Well, I suspect you've already loaded your previous save, but I'll give some hints to your party anyway:

If you've slain the zombies and the horrible Wind Horrors, you have half success. There are two major things that make Grachus so powerful:
* Melee attacks, he is a master of flails and maces
* Rune magic, contingencies and necromantic powers

The first problem can be avoided by not fighting him in melee. I'm sure you've done so.

The second one is the real threat. He has magical regerenation, continously activates protections and heals himself, this is why he was uninjured when you tried to face him the last time. He has three blue tattoos, which create mirror images. If he gets seriously injured, contigency magic also triggers, and while invisible, he heals himself. If he is out of these abilities and gets severely injured, he sacrifices a part of his soul (Necromantic soul split) which heals a lot on his body.

The key is dispelling and dealing high damage simultaneously, and in a very short time. You can dispel invisibility and mirror images by using Dispel Magic, your priests should have it. Is the spell's BG2 version used in Tutu? If so, it's not that easy, I admit. But mirror images aren't as dangerous as invisibility. And you can dispel invisibility with other spells as well. If you dispel his invisibility while he is trying to heal himself, you can interrupt his healing spell with arrows! And here comes the most important part. Imoen and Minsc can fire arrows. Minsc has higher THAC0, so he is our VIP now. Do you have arrows of dispelling? Use them! But prepare a quiver of Acid Arrows as well. As soon as Grachus losts his invisibility and/or mirror images, attack him with bows and other ranged weapons! If you manage to deal a lot of damage to him, he will die very quickly. Additionally, Tergius should cast Lower Resistance several times on Grachus which decreases his magic resistance. Furthermore, you should summon creatures to occupy the Moon Horrors. These creatures are dangerous to your weaker characters only.

They are far, but Damien & co. are very powerful, so it may be worth the trouble.

Dispell Magic is unaltered by any of the Tutu mods/tweaks I have installed.

I have a save where Grachus' initial batch of summons have all been killed after Minsc lured them to Tergius and his summoned earth elementals. And there is then only Grachus to be lured. If I try to take him on in in front of FAI I seem to have my best opportunity to damage him as he casts about 8 spells before summoning Moon Horrors.

When I lure Grachus to Tergius he summons Moon Horrors instantly, but there at least the earth elements are fighting the Horrors.

Unfortunately for my purposes here, Minsc has no proficiency in the bow. I'm using Drew's Minsc Berserker mini-mod, which gives Minsc the Berserker kit rage ability but otherwise keeps him a ranger. Minsc's profs are Two Handed Sword **, Two Handed Weapon **, Mace **, Two Weapon Style **. His best weapons are Spider Bane and Mace +1. Sometimes I equip him with a Two Handed Sword +1 so that he can use the boots of speed.

Imoen is the party's archer. But throughout the game I've been using her mostly as a backstabber with the Fiery Dagger +3. I don't have many enchanted arrows for her--some +1s, and a handful of arrows of biting and fire.

Other than that, for ranged weapons: PC - darts (has some +1s), Tiax - sling (mundane bullets), Finch - sling (mundane bullets), Xzar - throwing daggers (mundane).

Tiax I use as the party's second 'tank, in ankheg armor, equipped with the guantlets of ogre power, spellbuffed, and wielding Aule's Staff. Finch can also be used--briefly--as a tank via Divine Remix's Beast Claw, and then Holy Power and Draw Upon Holy Might. But once those buffs wear off she's a sitting duck.

In front of FAI Monster Summoning II can distract the Moon Horrors for around a turn (maybe less). After that, they will quickly make mincemeat of any meleers other than Minsc (and even him eventually).

Anyway, I will try resting and memorizing some of the spells you mention, then see if I can disprupt Grachus' casting. Of course the problem with dispelling magic is that I will lose the magics I have placed on my meleers. And then they will get whittled away by the Horrors.

Three additional things that might help:
* Scatter your party. Keep big distances, run a lot, and let Grachus cast spells on one character of you. If you have trouble getting high Magic Resistance, here is a hint: in one of the houses, the thief who is killed by Boris and Pumpkin has a Potion of Magic Shielding as well. Furthermore, the range of the Dispel Magic spell is not small, so if your characters are far enough, they won't be affected by the spell.
* Moon Horrors are dangerous to summoned creatures and characters with weak AC. A well-armoured character can occupy them. Use healing potions when needed.
* You might not want to lure Grachus to Tergius. Just hit and run (but keep damaging him). By the way, before summoning the Moon Horrors, Grachus should recognize Tergius. Does this happen?

Finally, if Grachus falls, all of his terrible Moon servants also get destroyed immediately.

Yeah, Grachus does speak with Tergius. I've tried the things you've recommended to no avail.

Rarely have I begun to experience this level of frustration over a computer game, heh! I'm a patient person, but this is testing my limits.

With a BG1 party, I am taking on an opponent who best I can reckon would probably defeat some of the most formidable enemies in Throne of Bhaal. Why am I even attempting this, lol?

I understand that you have balanced it by adding high level allies--which is a novel approach. And it does require somewhat unusual tactics--it's super difficult and it's different so kudos for that.

I guess I would just rather have a fighting chance without the help of uber allies. But then that would not be the mod you have designed.

A party without decent tankitude doesn't appear to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning this battle.

CHARNAME and his party often faces higher level enemies, though not as much more powerful as in Grey Clan, but well, you've powerful allies too, as you've said. A story where you're not the big saviour and hero, just *one* hero from many.

What's the main problem anyway? Grachus regenerates too fast? Destroys everyone?
How much damage can you deal to him? Do you have too many missed attacks?

The power of Grachus is enormous, but still limited. He has three Blue Tattoos, and one Necromantic Soul Split. If you manage to get so far that he is forced to use the latter ability, you can be sure that his power has significantly decreased.

I still recommend Damien. Compared the effort you've made so far to win this battle, it's not a big trouble if you lure him to Lord Jesacco. They're one of the best warriors of Amn. Hint: Grachus knows how powerful Tergius and the Elite Flaming Fist is, but he thinks he can easily slay some armed men from Amn even without the help of Moon Horrors.

If you've already tried Damien with no luck, make another attempt: summon creatures to protect the archer and to occupy Grachus while the Lord and John are attacking him in melee. Heal them if required. Apply Dispel Magic as soon as Grachus becomes mirror imaged and/or invisible, so the attacks can disrupt his healing spells and cause damage.

I played (and will play again) with BP ... not that it modifies lot of your creature, but it was really HARD to win some battles (mainly the one with 2 female mages, wow!).

Played also with DSotSC+NTotSC+SoB and there are NOT issue at all with them (not that they touch AI ... but nice to know as well)

Ah ... of course i'm playing the BGT version

mm75

Lol, every time I try to walk away I keep getting pulled back for another go at it.

I've tried using Dispel Magic but Grachus doesn't seem to skip a beat. I do my best to get the party to try to do some damage, but either Grachus or the Moon Horrors start whupping on them. They are unable to do much to Grachus, and eventually everyone in the party falls one by one as their spell and potions buffs wear off. As I mentioned, I will not do any appreciable damage with ranged attacks from this party. They pretty much have to melee.

This is a Tutu game, and one thing I have yet to try is loading up both my mages with Melf's Minute Meteors. That spells gives 5 attacks per round when hasted. Both mages hurling Melf's should be sure to disrupt some important spellcasting. Exactly when would be the best time to attempt this? As soon as Grachus goes invisible?

mm75: Thanks for confirming that it works with those mods. Practice proves theory. As for the battle with the High Sorceresses, well, to each his own. I know of players who found the final battle easy and the Grachus one hard.

Painful way of suicide. Even Sarevok would bite the dust if he faced Grachus alone.

When he goes invisible, you first have to dispel it, so I guess you meant the moment when his invisibility is dispelled. To tell the truth, I don't think this will result in severe improvements, because when he loses enough HP, a Contingency and/or a Blue Tattoo gets released and he starts to cast healing spells. He needs constant attacks, and your party doesn't seem to be suitable for this (inadequate THAC0). The Meteor "strike" would only be effective after he uses Necromantic soul split. It's his last powerful healing ability. However, based on what you say (or what you don't), you haven't managed to get this far, which is not surprising. You might be impatient in battle, and don't run enough, do you? Although I haven't played the Tutu version yet (except some testing), it's hard to believe that Grachus has too many abilities left after fighting Talibehius, Tergius, the Dwarves and Damien. Somehow you are silent about Damien -- did you make an attempt with him at all? You should run a lot, and let the Flaming Fist and other non-party members do the dirty (melee) work. Remember, Grachus has a limited number of Contingencies, Tattoos and Necromantic Abilities/Spells. He will use them up while fighting the aforementioned allies of you. He shouldn't be too strong when you lure him to Damien. So if his Necromantic soul split hasn't triggered yet, it should really trigger during the battle against Damien's men. When you dispel the mirror images or the attacks of Damien & co. cause them to disappear, you should start throwing the meteors.

then the safest way to tackle him is to lure him out and around in a running battle, letting him chop through the other NPCs in turn (probably counterclockwise; I have always worked clockwise)? That seems the best way to approach the mod is to explore the outer area first, then go inside, then trigger the battle, then do the bump and run tactic until he is severely weakened - then finally finish him off. That sounds about right? (I always play with two tanks and wait until I have some heavy levels before attacking, m'self. The tanks are strictly to help summons hold off the minions while spellcasters and archers concentrate on the primary. I often lose at least the Soldier in the lower left corner and often most of the dwarves, but if one of my characters has that potion of MB and/or high MR, I can at least get him moving while tatoos are going off!)

Yes, absolutely. I do rotate characters into face-to-face combat, and when the one fighting Gracgus directly is badly injured I move that character away to heal via potions or cure spells.



Well, I have a save where I had led Grachus and his summons directly to Tergius. And as I mentioned Grachus killed Tergius. I hoped Grachus would be substantially weakened after that encounter, having cast most of his spells by then. However he is uninjuredand seems to have plenty of destructive power left. And when I load the save at that point, and lure Gracgus to the dwarves, Grachus simply summons a fresh batch of Moon Horrors. Grachus and his Moon Horrors then eventually prove too much for the dwarves and my party.

Is Damien one of the dwarves?

***

Near as I can tell, the main problem I'm having here is that my party is heavily dependent spellcasting to win (especially with the much more difficult SCS battles, TGC notwithstanding). That is the challenge I intended to set up for myself at the outset with the party composition of two mages, one tank, a thief, a full cleric who supports the party with healing, item identification, and divine spellcasting, and a cleric-thief who suits up for melee. But here, with Grachus and his Moon Horrors, this party is facing SoA/ToB level opponents who appear to have magic resistance (is this correct?). And I don't have the BG2 spells such as Breach, Spellstrike, Lower Resistance, etc., that would allow me to defeat them with magic.

Damien is human, a member of Amn's economic and military elite. The Grey Clan kidnapped his wife, so he came to to FAI to free her. You can find him on the northeast corner of the map, please see Map4 here: http://greyclan.blackwyrmlair.net/ep1/maps.html

Facing challenges often requires unusual, non-standard approach. And it's common that you have to use every possibility to win. This can be your solution here.
In your case, the non-stardard approach means that you don't rank opponents by power in this way (ToB/SoA levels), because it is known that traditional tactics won't help here. But there is always a solution. You need the support of all allies. And even at this point, no one (not even myself) knows which combination is the best if it's not tried. For example, cmorgan's idea about moving counterclockwise on the map might be better than the usual one (clockwise), I have never tried it. However, one thing is sure, you need all allies. Now that you know where Damien is, you have one more ally. Check the map I linked to, there is Talibehius as well. He has a leather armour, so he won't stand for too long, but his hits are effective. Additionally, if Tergius was alive, he would keep healing Talibehius even from big distance.
(It might not be the best feeling that it's not your party that wins this battle but other allies, but it still means you can advance in GCE1's plot with such a party.)

All in all, you've to mobilize every ally, and every character's power (if/where applicable) to win this battle with such a party. When you see that Grachus is weak and starts losing hit points, don't let your ally give the final hit. Provided you want the 18,000 XP. (Melf's Minute Meteors? I haven't tried them on Grachus, but without magical protections, he should be more vulnerable to such attacks as well.)